AS/HFA Confusion

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Yeah, I always said that Aspies have great social skills when they are dealing with other Aspies.

Agreed!

Anti-psychotics are the new lobotomies. I hate them , only got better when i got off them.

Yes I think thats true.

Well, you are right, it's about history originally, though people have formed their own opinions and might ignore it.

AS requires single words by the age of 2 and communicative phrases by age 3. If you start to speak at age 4, you do not have AS according to DSM-IV-TR and ICD-10. So if your diagnosis is a DSM-IV-TR or ICD-10 diagnosis of AS though you didn't spoke on time you're actually misdiagnosed.

That bit about imaginative is in the criteria too in some form.

But there it says that imaginative play can be impaired, which some autistic people do lack (such as that some do not speak on time, some cannot communicate by body language and so on).

It's interesting that even if you fulfil the criterion, you can be very imaginative! I write, like, very good fiction apparently, I role-play with others, but if you ask me to play along some kids by just imagining some crazy thing together with them and without directions then I'm lost.

It's funny how most of my symptoms disappear when I'm speaking to other Aspies, so that I technically aren't an Aspie...

Thus proving my theorom of 'Aspergers as a social construct'.

I don't think I'd be diagnosed if they tried to do it now. I still have the overactive brain stuff though (increased emotions, hypersensitivity, memory).

Not entirely, though. It seems to differ greatly depending on the person.

My impairments for example are present even when I try to interact with another autistic person.

When I have a conversation with someone, I try to act like it's an IM chat or forum thread. That way, it's a lot easier.

I don't think I'd be DXd if they tried to do it today.

i am not going to post any bullet point criteria that anyone can find with little research on the internet.
i also am not going to post paragraphs that are reworded approximations of anything i have read on the internet.

i have always thought of autism this way:
i think that autism is a "flavor" of disability that affects the brain and nervous system. all autistics have that particular "flavor" in varying intensities.

autism is like a consciousness being inside a bubble that is a one way mirror, with the inner surface being the mirror surface.
all i can see is me. all that comes from the panorama of my extrenal sensorium is a reflection of my thoughts.

for profound autistics, this mirror is maybe 99% reflective. people on the outside see only 1% of you, and you see only 1% of them against the 99% of "you" that you see reflected, so they are completely drowned out by your own reflection.

as the severity of autism (along the continuum of severity) decreases, the degree of reflectivity inside the bubble decreases proportionately.

autistic people who are "high functioning" can see their own reflection slightly more than their view of the outside world, and i think AS people can see more of the outside world than their own reflection in the one way mirror.

i think AS starts where the reflectivity is 49% (and the view outside 51%) and goes all the way up to where the reflectivity inside the bubble is maybe only 5%. beyond that i would think they are not discernibly autistic.

when i say i see my reflection, i do not mean i see a reflection of my physical face or anything. i mean i see a bright reflection my own thoughts that give me stimulus to think further, rather than seeing external thoughts from others that can influence me to think further along their train.

i know this is a simple and unintelligent analogy, but i thought of it when i was 12 when my doctor said if "AS" was an available diagnosis, she would diagnose it, but i was diagnosed as HFA then (she was interested in AS).

anywayyyy...

Wow, the mirror thing is actually a really cool way of putting it. I like it!

While we're doing fun analogies, the way i think of myself is like.. well... you know with an ant hill, all the ants seem to function like a single entity in most ways. Somehow everything just meshes together, every ant knows exactly what to do to do their part in the ant hill. I feel like i'm a slightly different species of ant, that happens to look almost identical to the rest of them, just dropped in with them. It puzzles me how all the other ants know exactly what to do and just fit together in the right way with all of their actions. I try to go along with it, but i don't know quite how.

Heh, I don't know how true this is. I think it's just that we don't mind it as much, and that we are more forgiving. It also seems less likely that we will hold grudges if we are engaged in good debate.

Oh wow, I like this. It's one of the best descriptions of autism that I've heard. I'm not diagnosed with anything (having never sought an official dx, and just spent my life wondering why everyone else is so weird), but that bubble/mirror thing describes me very well. I'm not sure what percentages (reflectivity vs. outside view) I'd use, and I'm sure it fluctuates, but I'm pretty sure I'm almost always seeing WAY more of "me" than the outside world. I never thought of the one-way-mirror, though, but now that you say it, that's exactly how it feels. It would also explain why I often feel invisible, and so separate from my social environment.

I have, on some occasions, consciously made an effort to lose the bubble, but it takes an enormous effort. On those days, I do notice that people look at me and smile when we pass, rather than appearing not to see me at all, so I guess it works. It's emotionally exhausting though, like having to scrape the ice off your windshield as you are driving.

Probably because there's no intricate little social rules everyone is expecting everyone else to strictly follow.
But... One thing i did notice the other day was funny, though. I was talking to someone i know who i think is likely an aspie, he does have a lot of aspie traits at least.... But it occured to me halfway through the conversation that we were both trying to kind of pull the conversation in different directions. We both had different topics on our minds that we were sort of stuck on, and, because of this, the conversation was wasn't exactly flowing in any kind of structured way or in any direction. I thought that was interesting.

I've noticed this with a guy I know who has a few AS traits. He wants to talk non-stop about what's on his mind, and I want to talk about what's on mine. Kind of a tug o' war.

I agree. I see a lot of Aspies on here being a lot more judgemental on things I think they should be the last person to be that way on (like screaming kids in public), but rarely in the way you approach them, except the sensitivity. I see some getting insulted knowing the other Aspies are more apt to say something that's going to come out wrong, they still take it personal. I think that's kinda normal too with Aspergers and because of the extra dose of honesty you might see, they usually square it easily...usually (I've seen some that had to have a moderator square it for them). But I think generally, Aspies are frustrated with social norms that this is a place where we can toss those rules out the window and just be ourselves for a moment, and with that comes the freedom for others to be that way too.

I too noticed that you can get into a good debate with an Aspie on here and be like best internet forum friends afterwards. Some people I've gotten into ugly debates with including some insults, but on a different thread, that same person I argue with might take my side on a subject they agree with me on. NT's are more apt to not agree with you only because they don't like you. Like Aspies have feelings more toward the concept they are talking about whereas NT's don't associate much emotion to the concept as much as the person they are dealing with. IMO

^ Agreed. NTs get too emotionally involved when debating something. ASDers will calmly argue a point and keep their emotions out of it. This is a crude generalization, but it's a common enough difference that I noticed it...

Not always do Aspies calmly argue. Exceptions I've noticed...
It's obvious as 2+2, (like arguing whether the earth is round)
Other person isn't listening (like I say I want to major in art because I am good at it and enjoy it, and the response is, Why do you want to major in art?)
Frustrated Aspies at their worst...when other people take what you say and twist it to the opposite (like I say, Dogs don't have the same instinct as cats when it comes to hunting and the other person takes it that I said dogs have no instinct for hunting and then they argue with you as that, and once you figure out that they twisted what you said, you end up arguing with them about what you said)

I think all people to an extent get upset when you disagree with them. But, I think the difference is NT's consider your disagreement to be about them more than the topic, and the way you talk to them has nothing to do with the topic as much as how you feel about them. So to disagree with them is to insult them. Whereas Aspies are so topic oriented. We just say how we feel about something and what we know about it and use logic of some sort to come to any conclusions based on that. Like it has nothing to do with the person you are speaking with unless that is the topic.

The other thing I noticed is the purpose of the debate. Consider something like Pro Life vs Pro Choice. If NTs get into a debate about it, it's because they are trying to convert one to go to the other. Otherwise, they state their opinion and that's that. No details. Aspies could care less. ProChoice Aspies might talk about why you are PRo Life, but if the ProLifer spits out something wrong like the way abortion procedures are handled, the Aspie will correct them, not to get them to change their mind, but to get them to use their mind. NT's will say whatever they can to get you to believe you must change your mind and side with them (again, agree with them or you have nothing in common with them, or in this case, you may not be the person they thought you were and your position on Life vs Choice may just change your relationship with that person).

More I think...imagine an NT wanting to get a mortgage. They will do whatever they can to get that mortgage approved, and if that means lie a little, well, lie a little. If that means settling for higher interests or going through a company many people would avoid, then they do it. To them, it's about getting approved. Aspies on the other hand are very honest on their application because we kinda believe, well if we don't get approved, it's because we aren't ready for that mortgage and may need to wait a little. Maybe we don't all see it as that, but I think on a subconscious level, Aspies are more apt to believe if I'm not good enough for you at first impression, then we just weren't meant to be. That mentality, while wiser in the longterm, it also becomes an obstacle at job interviews, teacher/student relationships, etc. I guess in the end, it also keeps us out of trouble to an extent.

One thing I noticed to, Aspies and NT's have a different set of rules with debates. Aspies rules are textbook like...no name calling, don't make it personal, etc. NT's have a social set of rules that I can't figure out, but no matter how many are told the things we are told in Speech Class and English Persuasive writing classes (ltextbook rules of a debate), they still reduce themselves to the sloppiest debate possible.

Also, I'm noticing right now a debate issue, my brain is coming up with things faster than I can organize them. I think that's an issue many Aspies face. Whereas NT's organize much faster than their minds come up with the stuff, like they won't allow the thoughts in until the others are organized. I think that makes arguing much more difficult between Aspie and NT. As hard as it is on the Aspie (as it takes a lot of effort to organize these thoughts and you almost want to give up trying but you don't because it would be selfish), it's even harder on NT's (because they are trying to organize your thoughts too when you spit it out in an un-organized manner like this post for instance).

I also noticed Aspies and NT's differ in the way they approach context and memory. I think Aspies tend to be most accurate with memory and usually are less apt to exaggerate. NT's will exaggerate naturally, and they go the direction most convenient to them. If it's convenient to say there's more fish, then they will add fish to what was actually there. If the convenience goes otherwise, then there will be less fish. If it doesn't matter at all, they usually forget to mention the fish were ever there. This is a huge issue when debating with a family member about something that happened 10 years ago that they brought up to the argument. They also tend to remember their perception. Like you can make a comment without any insult, but if the NT got insulted, they won't remember your comment but that you made an insult to them. Many times too, if they made any assumptions to who you are, that is who they see in everything you do, no matter what. Their memory also is based on that false perception. So therefore, this creates a false context for NT's to work from. Aspies are pretty simple with context. They go with the actual context as if it were written by a perfect stranger. It's also not usually the first thing to our minds to think about history. That only happens on a conscious level when it's relevant to the situation (such as debating whether or not someone is using drugs or determining if someone might be Aspergers).

All these differences I think intensify a debate because it's so frustrating on both ends. Aspies debate well with other Aspies. NT's debate well with other NT's. But I noticed when mixing the two, it can get pretty heated.

Now even a more crude generalization than what I've made thus far, I believe Aspies are more accepting of NT differences than NT's of Aspies. Even with the many Aspie posts you see (and we all have felt it at some point in our lives) that we are better than NT's, even with that, we are still more accepting of them than they are of us. But that's due to the fact that we are the minority and have no choice. I'm not sure where I stand on that if we were the majority, but I'm leaning to the idea that it would still hold true.