Why is it easier for NTs to feign?

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You're supposed to feel bad but 3-year-olds don't necessarily naturally feel bad...not even NT ones. Sorry, in this case, it really is patterning at first...NT or not. And not "feeling" bad at age three doesn't make the mark of a future serial killer. I'm getting the hint you're not AS or ASD?

And no, not even NT adults necessarily refrain from doing criminal things because they'd "feel bad" about it, though they probably would (and so would many AS/ASD people, trust me on that one!). Even among the NT population I believe many people refrain from their more base instincts (such as hitting someone, or something like that) because they do know they'd do jail time...which is the same reason AS/ASD people might refrain.

feeling guilty and bad isn't an NT vs. AS thing, I sure wish you would quit drawing that line in the sand.

I definitely can't make the diagnosis, that's why I asked and then said I was guessing. I'm still asking...As for why my guess: Because your view of AS and ASD in the two posts I quoted here seemed unduly harsh and seemed to lack insight into AS/ASD.

I also didn't draw a line in the sand regarding feeling guilty; your comment was that a child should do the right thing out of feelings v. out of being taught that way but not yet really "feeling" it (my paraphrase, not your words) and I was explaining that for both NT and AS/ASD children it's pretty much the same at first and that even for adults, the ultimate motivation is often the very same...if anyone's drawing a line in the sand, it's you.

The defensiveness here...Do you really want to learn? Because you ask these questions not as if you genuinely want to know, but rather, want to accuse. Again. Curious. ASD? Non?

there isn't anything in that statement that applies to any post I've made.

please show me

1)where I've been harsh
2)where I've been perplexed or confused

I HAVE called out the labeling of certain things as AS vs NT issues where they are not. I have asked one person for detail of their personal experience so I can understand their personal point of view.

to answer your question, I am in the middle of being diagnosed, which is one of the reasons I found my way to this board.

Some of your references and words, such as saying ASD people may be being "fake" ("fake" was your word; I don't want to reword that part as you seem to really not be understanding what I'm saying, or...Well, I really can't figure it out).

Also, this was pretty finger-wagging:

When you do something bad, you should feel bad for doing it, and then you should apologize. This is what is being taught here. You're supposed to be sorry for stealing someone's toy. You're supposed to be sorry for hitting someone. This is right and wrong and that's the lesson. However, if you haven't learned that you should be sorry for doing wrong, then you're gonna have a lot of problems as an adult, maybe even do jail time.




Because you said you "seek to understand"...I assumed that meant, well, that you don't understand. (shrug)

ETA: Also the "prove it"-style intimation in your question about how this could involve torture...which I myself answered in detail; yet when you had an actual answer, well, you haven't bothered to remark on that. It just doesn't "feel" like you're really seeking answers...that question felt more like you were accusing, as if the person were exaggerating, especially since, given an answer, you were then silent on the matter, instead preferring to continue by attacking specific details (which I have answered anyway...even though I am by now DEFINITELY getting the feeling you don't want a real discussion or real answers here, but rather, to finger-point and put forth what you think are rhetorical questions).

I have given you a lot of answers here and a lot of personal experiences, and a lot of examples, but you haven't addressed anything that you can't then attack. (shrug) I don't buy that you're simply interested in learning. Sorry. That's my personal take.

I admit I'm a little shocked at some of the automatic anger/defensiveness/etc. I see on this forum thus far...I wasn't expecting Kumbayah but geez, people. Nobody's perfect but for heaven's sake, give a girl a chance.

I haven't been angry, you just don't seem to like it when people have disagreements. On message boards and forums it's way to easy to confuse personal experience and opinion with fact. I've been trying to separate the two. The reason I've been "defensive" with you is because you've made several false and accusatory statements about me. I merely asked you to provide the proof.

The first post I ever read by discosizzle on WP, it took me indeed only a few lines to know that they're NT. However, they may be Aspie as well, because I like him/her very much. My AS test results show that I'm 100% and 100% NT, so I guess that's a possibility, albeit a confusing one to me.

NowhereWoman, thank you for answering about the torture, I really didn't feel like getting into it myself. That's exactly what I meant by torture, maybe I should've called it torment or abuse, but English is not my first language so I'm not sure.

Remember - it isn't up to anyone here to be deciding on another's condition or diagnosis.


M.

Actually, I'm the WP in-house diagnostician and whoever I point at is diagnosed as suffering from "NTness condition" as you called it.

[/sarcasm]

I didn't actually diagnosed. I just guessed. Oh wait. So do most of my and my son's Pdocs. Yay, I just obtained my degree.

Kidding, folks, just kidding.............

I beg to differ. Your guesses are more educated than theirs. Theirs were read in books, yours were tried by fire.

Greentea, thanks for the vote of confidence earlier in the thread. And in turn, I and all the other NT people who are here to better understand somebody we love appreciate the explanations from AS people.

I think the reason "why" is irrelevant, why would you want to wear the "mask of sanity"? That's a better question, infact that's a good question for anyone irregardless of them being AS or NT.



Just more proof of the social plauge that infests society.



The "False Self" ie. "Mask of Sanity" is just an aspect of the social plauge, no one seems to realize that they're being infected (AS and NT).

As children we were taught to respect each other, not to lie, not to steal, not to cheat, to be compassionate, to be just, to be honest with ourselves.... What do we do with these noble ideas? We throw them in the trash and accept the social plauge while pretending to be all those afforementioned things while doing the exact opposite of what we say. This is madness, the social plauge really needs to be pointed out, humanity is supposed to be better than this.



I refuse to wear the "mask of sanity" and play "mind games", if everyone wishes to pretend then they can do so, but don't think I won't call people on their hypocrisy, it's my right to speak frankly just as it is anyone who accepts this decadence's right to be a walking contradiction.



No, the ASer wants to be with the group but he refuses to betray his "soul" and wear the "mask" and some NTs do the same thing, they refuse to betray their "souls" and reject the "mask".



Sorry but ignoring the underlying problem by pretending isn't going to change anything, it only brings disaster. It brings hatred by those who refuse to be "good" little robots by hypocrites who only wish to benefit themselves, true understanding is what is needed to fix problems, not pretending the problems "away".



I'd sooner die than wear the disgusting "mask of sanity", and yes my way does work, my friends are my true friends, not "false" friends initiating circle-jerk behaviour and primitive pack-behaviour.



What a repugnant post.



What types of "NTs" are you talking to? The way "NT" is thrown around here, I almost think you guys are not really talking about NTs but the pretenders sociopaths, you shouldn't mistake the socially deviant for a NT.



That's how it's supposed to work, but to the socially-deviant words are nothing but tools to control things to their liking.



*Applauds*



Yeah, but a so-called adult who doesn't feel for others is the mark of a future serial killer as well as a hustler, con-artist, mobster, or even your average d-bag who takes advantage of his friends and family. You've clearly missed the point, these "adults" who don't feel for others are destructive to others, they are social-deviants PSYCHOPATHS, NARCISSISTS, SOCIOPATHS! If you want to wear a "mask" then you're no better than these super-BSers and abusers.



Yeah, they turn out to be sub-criminal sociopaths who abuse people in relationships, they take advantage of their friends and family and bully others because they're less likely to get caught for their misdeeds in manner.



Some may, but I refrain because it's wrong, I'm not above the rules, the only people that truly need smacked are the instigators of the social plauge.



So "wagging your finger" at people who act like sociopaths (both AS and NT) is a bad thing? I guess I should bend over for bullies then, to bad it's not going to happen.

Janissy, are Aspies difficult to understand? It never occurred to me before that the mystery might be mutual...? If so, maybe you'd like to be my next guest (I host a live show here on this very forum where I interview people and give them the limelight). It might prove useful for both NTs and Aspies, both sides could learn a lot and you too could ask all the questions you want, and in those interviews there's NO debate/arguing/disrespect for views allowed, only questions and answers. People ask questions, take what suits them and leave the rest. You might want to take a look at this thread HERE and let me know by PM if you'd be interested...

Thank you for the invite to real-time talk but I'm afraid I'd better pass and stick to the post-whenever format. The bulk of the posters seem to be posting from the U.K. and I'm in the U.S. The link you provided showed a real-time interview happening between 2AM and 3AM my time. That 6 hour time difference is a deal breaker for real time talk. But thank you for even considering me.

But yes, the incomprehension is mutual. I like to think that the majority of NT posters are here trying to comprehend a person they love: child, sibling, spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend, parent. (Now and then there must be an NT troll trying to pick a fight, but I would hope that's the minority.) I think the greatest angst over this incomprehension comes from NT parents because we are constantly told by the world at large (or the school system) that we need to DO SOMETHING about our child. And we don't have the faintest idea what to do or what not to do because we can't use our own childhood memories as guides nor can we use the advice from freinds or family. And certainly not the advice from our own parents as they hazily recall what they used to do with our own little NT selves that worked so well.

So we blither about, sometimes doing the very wrong thing. Sometimes with awful results. And then finally end up here and somebody with an excellent memory of their own childhood takes us aside and says, "this is what it felt like to be that child and my parents did X and that was worse for me" or "my parents did Y and that helped me" but just generally "this is how it feels". This is a lightbulb moment.

NT posters who love and want to understand an AS spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend, sibling are just as baffled. But the angst level is probably lower because they don't have all the rest of society (and the school system) pressuring them to DO SOMETHING.

To give an example, I recently read an explanatory post from Tracker who explained the futility of trying to communicate with a child mid-meltdown as being like the futility of trying to make a phone call during a rock concert. He gave an in-depth neurological reason for this too. That's gold to us baffled NTs. There was also somebody whose avatar had mirror shades (can't remember the name) recalling his own mom's gentle method of helping him navigate his way through life. I know that everybody is a unique individual and has different experiences and perceptions and what worked for one AS child could backfire terribly with another. But the parenting advice we're getting from elsewhere is so uniformly useless that really only people who live with this wiring can shed light for us.

If my parents had:
1. not stolen my natural inborn self-esteem from me
2. explained the non-verbal (pecking order, euphemisms and white lies)
it would've been enough of a blessing. Just make sure your child doesn't have to live with the trauma of your abuse and despise all her life on top of being a doormat to everyone and seen as ridiculous because she doesn't get the social non-verbal game. That's enough.

If you can do more:
3. suggest to her professions where PR is not the main skill needed.
4. raise her for independence and self-sufficiency in case the world doesn't change in her generation either and NTs continue shunning / making doormats of Aspies so she chooses to remain single and friendless. Teach her that one is valuable even if one has nobody who loves us. Don't condition her value as a person to someone, any jerk, appreciating her / loving her / wanting to be her friend.
5. remind her that she's kind and valuable even if NTs are constantly offended by her views and comments and attitudes. As someone said yesterday, kindness comes from the heart, not the mouth.

If you have strength and patience for even more:
6. Threaten any gang of kids that tortures her with bullying, rather than try to deal through their parents, teachers, counselors, headmasters or tell her to ignore the bullies.
7. Be open minded to her view of the world and try to see if maybe she does have a point in some things, even if her ideas are very Aspie ones.