Using 'Asperger's' as a Shield

Post Reply New Topic

I agree with all the last posts, and you are all absolutely right. Everyone’s experience is different. When I was at primary school, over 50 odd years ago, no one knew about autism or AS. I can tell you, that having my intellect was the only thing that helped me overcome many, many obstacles in my life. I was misdiagnosed, given awful treatments (I will leave that to your imagination), and threatened (by my parents) of a fate even worse!

I now understand why I had the nightmares, the phobias, the hypersensitivity of hearing, the ungainly walk, the hopelessness at sport, and why I was thought strange. To understand is to feel relief. Everything makes sense to me now. And yes, I believed I was from Another Planet. Not my physical body, I looked enough like my parents to know there was no mistake, but I believed my mind was from Somewhere Else, and now I know why.

It is the wiring of the system that is different. That is why it is a syndrome, not a disease, and that is why the whole thing is a spectrum, of different abilities and types of wiring. We all have to be tolerant of others experiences, as we only have ours to go by, as we are in ourselves as it were.

As your AS doesn't seem to be a real problem as you say, not very debilitating, I take it you are just being an intentionally and horribly rude person who displays lots of ignorance on purpose and who has a very uneducated opinion due to that lack of respect. Why do that? It doesn't make sense. Are you very emotional perhaps that often leads you to commit such irrational actions?

I can imagine you may be right about that AS isn't as debilitating as agoraphobia or schizophrenia: Maybe where you live lots of people who don't quite have AS are diagnosed with AS? Or people with definite AS are placed into other categories because people don't like them being associated with their mild or hardly-there AS.

I do find it to be strange however that you are incapable to imagine that it is different elsewhere in the world and that you do not understand that you know nothing about other people. I mean, you display at least some social intelligence such as the knowledge how to be intentionally rude and disrespectful and you do say your AS isn't a big issue, so that's really a little strange, but it's okay. It doesn't matter, nobody can do everything.

But, you are a lucky one that your AS doesn't make you smash your head bloody on the pavement (or smashing someone else's head into the pavement, I mean, doesn't matter which one) or that you're not stripping a little in public. Or that you're not having an experience as typical as going down in a supermarket and being unable to find your way around and home for some time.

That's cool, it's okay to be very mild or just have it 'a little' because everyone with AS is different and lots of us really accept that even if you now don't want to acknowledge that unknown reasons.

Employment rate for schizophrenia: 10%.
Employment rate for Asperger's: 12%.

There are Aspies who are more impaired than the average guy with schizophrenia or agoraphobia... They are not categorically more disabling than Asperger's; the ranges overlap. You really can't compare them. Yes, a mild case of AS will amount to less impairment than either one, but then, single-episode schizophrenia maintained long-term at asymptomatic levels with medication is going to be a lot milder than your average case of Asperger's.

Incidentally, my level of impairment started decreasing when I started identifying with Asperger's. I can do much more now than then. Before, my approach was "deny it, pretend you're normal, try harder". Didn't work. Ask the guys giving me Haldol in the psych ward. You HAVE to face up to the diagnosis, understand it, and work with it, in order to get anywhere. Especially if you don't have a mild, near-NT case.

Indeed. Comparing one condition to the other is never going to give a full picture of how debilitating the effects of either can be. There are degrees of schizophrenia - some sufferers manage to function and lead fairly productive lives, but they're usually the borderline cases . Same with AS - it's more severe and debilitating in some cases than others.

I also agree with your last paragraph that going into denial and refusing to acknowledge the condition won't help in terms of learning to live with the symptoms.

Last edited by Locustman on 19 Aug 2009, 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

There's one difference I can see right away, though: By themselves, the symptoms of Asperger's cause no distress. By themselves, the symptoms of schizophrenia and agoraphobia usually do cause distress (occasionally, they do not). AS, of course, is associated with a great deal of distress when one is rejected and/or mistreated; but by itself, there is no reason why the symptoms should cause distress. Similar to many other neurological conditions and learning disabilities, and many physical disabilities, the biggest problem people with AS face is adjusting to a world that was not made for people with their mental configuration. That people with schizophrenia and other inherently distressing conditions also face this self/world mismatch, and all the prejudice and rejection that comes along with it, might be one reason we tend to consider it "worse" to have those things rather than autism. Still, it seems to me that there would be much less trouble about living with something like schizophrenia if, just like for autism, acceptance and decent accommodations were available. It would get that employment rate higher, at the very least.

So answer this, why is it that people can get away with going to the psychologist because they want to take care of OCD, but not Asperger's? If someone says that those with OCD need a label as an excuse, people say the accuser is prejudice.

Consider this, most wouldn't say Down Syndrome is false. They have tests to see how well someone can read social situations. Those with Asperger's and High Functioning Autism do worse than those with Down Syndrome on these tests. If those with ASD don't have human interaction because they honestly don't want to, how do you explain the evidence?

I could be wrong, but if we use the same logic someone with OCD still has their limbs, don't they? There are people dying in Africa? Those with OCD look normal? Why does it make sense to you that people can go in for OCD, but can't for a disorder of having very limited ability in picking up social situations?

What would you least like, having OCD that takes up 2 hours of your day, or living the rest of your life with no friends and everyone misunderstands most of what you say? I guess some are going to be different.

I cannot say that I necessarily agree or disagree, as I cannot be 100% sure that I am comprehending what was meant correctly.

My son and I have both been bullied, walked over, pushed around, etc. by people we thought were friends, and for me, it still happens on a daily basis, and I'm 29.

We never sit around and whine about it being because we are autistic, but he and I will discuss that at times it may happen because we think differently and do things differently.

People who we know-as far as ones I know, do a lot of... sketchy things knowing that I process information differently, take a while to comprehend what is going on at times, and that I'm not good at decision making or just flat out saying "no" in that matter. I've wound up watching 8 kids before because of this, without ever saying a word. They do this *awesome* (sarcasm) thing where they ask very quickly "will you watch my kids for an hour or so?" then while I'm processing it, or deciding, they dart out the door while their kids are in my house already. Or they ask if their child can play for a little while, and when I try to get ahold of them, nobody is home-they are out and about and I've become a babysitter with no one telling me what is going on. I consider that being taken advantage of in big ways by people-by other adults...

2 of the kids particularly that I wind up watching a lot due to this (mom darting off before I officially say "no"), often come back telling me how their whole family thinks I'm a big weirdo because I do this or that.

In my son's case, he doesn't express when he's upset, when he's being bullied, or anything of that sort, and he doesn't blame the autism either. However, over time of being pushed around by the other boys and made fun of, he's developed some depression and has the "I can't" attitude going when we try to get him to play games.

Heck, he went 6 months day and and day out of school once being picked on all day long, including during lunch and recess, and when he defended himself, he was the one who got in trouble. So now he just has to sit there and listen to the teasing, the jokes made about him, people telling him how weird and gross and whatever they can think of, because if he retaliates in any way, he winds up in trouble.

We all know the symptoms of things like this likely stem from our having autism. The inability to express emotion-or difficulty in doing so... decision making (too many things to factor in to make a fast "yes" or "no" decision in my case-overthinking). My son not being able to retaliate by using words rather than lashing out and punching someone (because he isn't even quite sure he knows how he feels, he just knows he wants them to stop doing what they are doing ultimately).

It's not an excuse, or shield. These are areas he and I both need a lot of work in, and we've never used it as an excuse, just as an explanation to figure out exactly what we need to work on, and what our worst problem areas are.

It's very difficult to move on from it, when you do not know how or what to do to change things.... and thinking about changing how you do things, is hard in itself. That is a major change, a major challenge to be dealt with. We don't just "adjust" and move on like other people can. Especially when it is constantly staring you in the face that you are a pushover, you're being walked all over, you're constantly the odd one out, and you are reprimanded for it in the end if you do anything about it on your own... if you tell people about it, then they call you a "whiner" or "tattletale".

When my son goes and tells somebody what is bothering him, I see that as a milestone. He had a very hard time even figuring out what the other people were doing that bugged him to begin with. But when people blow him off, tell him to stop tattling on people, and shove him aside... usually they are doing that to a child that isn't trying to get someone in trouble, he is trying to cope with the situation and express what is going on that is bothering him. He is asking for help.

So how is one supposed to move on, without explaining to people what autism is when they are clearly not getting the picture that you are trying to get help in a situation that they are able to just up and move on from? How can we not let it get to us when people won't listen and won't help us out in social situations?

That's when you go to therapy... and you know what? The therapist will stick a label on it first so that they can know how to help in the beginning. So from then on out, you are going to therapy to get help for problems associated to AS. There is no way around it, if you are having a lot of problems due to it, it DOES come out eventually, it has to almost in order to get help with anything at all. It's not a shield, or excuse, I look at is as a label to help others help us ultimately in the long run... providing they pay any attention to it.

There's plenty of reasons that one might be more resilient. AS often removes one such reason--a strong social support network. Often times, the people who were bullied and got over it also had friends later on. Or they had supportive families. Etc.

Or, like me, they had worse bullies at home, and school was a refuge because kids aren't as strong or devious as adults. (But I got over the bullying at home, too, eventually.) Maybe we are simply talking to people who are still rather young here. I've been out of high school a good while; many people here are still in it. I might've sounded similarly bitter had you talked to me while I was still living with my sociopath... uh, I mean, stepfather.

Sora:

Not anymore, because I learnt to overcome most of the adversity I gave me in childhood.


I don't suffer fools gladly.



YOU are the one making a vague claim about how terribly worse Asperger's syndrome ( a MILD form of Autism) is compared to what is widely considered one of the most debilitating mental illnesses out there.



Bercuase you offended and belittled my problems and now you condecend me for takign offence with you holier than thou attitude, and insult my intelligence, hardly seems rational to me. Maybe you're not so logical after all. I mean, what are you, a Spock wannabe? Are you so afraid of your emotions that you have to strangle them with logic?



How long would it have taken you to look at my location status? Where is says I live in Surrey, england? Which has one of the highest proportion of autistic residents in country, so I'm told? Stop with the strawman arguments, they don't work.



Again, you're confusing Autism with AS. I like how you make it look Like Auties make social Pariahs of their less-disabled aspie cousins. Maybe we aren't so different from NTs as well.



I do understand, but you are making a If you had said 'Autism instead of Asperger's, I would not have complained.



You seem to know how to deliberately condescending and bigoted, so maybe you're more like a supposed 'NT' boogyman than you think.





Yes, I'm lucky. I'm lucky becuase I watched my mother die when I was 10 years old. I'm lucky because I thrown out by my b***h of a stepmother, I was lucky because I had to have councelling for nearly a decade, I'm lucky because I have to take 3 different kinds of medication every day. I'm lucky because I can't leave the hosue without having a panic attack. I'm lucky because if I once tried to cut my eye out with a knife. I'm lucky becuase I wake up screaming because I see some thing in the darkness that says its going to cut out my heart and eat it raw.

I'm lucky because I'm a schizophrenic.

Don't you f*****g condescend me girl, Compared to all the s**t I've been through in the last few decades, you havn't f*****g Lived



I think this comment speaks of the sort of bigotry and self agrandisement that I despise about certain people on this forum.

Calista, Thanks for your understanding and reasonable comments.

Do you expect me to quote and answer you too? I suppose I could, in some cases I imagine it is necessary because this is an official forum and you're putting thing into my mouth which I want to distance myself from clearly as I haven't said them before.

I would understand you getting worked up about such a claim because it would be incorrect, but I didn't say that or anything equal in meaning. Read?



Don't say I said something I did not. I've asked and been told that's slander, claiming others said things they didn't to make them look evil somehow.

That you ignore that there are people with Asperger's who are worse than people with agoraphobia or schizophrenia makes you very uneducated about how Asperger's is for some other people. And how agoraphobia or schizophrenia can be for others who also do not fit your idea of those disorders.



I didn't say schizophrenia (if you mean this by saying you problems) is not a big problem. Do not put words into my mouth that I did not say.



I also didn't insult your intelligence. Where did I do that? Are you interpreting that into my text somehow? I did ask you whether you understood something because it is common that autistic people do not due to the impaired imagination and you say you have a form of autism. I thought it would be more insulting to assume anything about you without asking whether it is correct or not. Were you insulted by that I asked you whether you can or can't understand that?

You're an (autistic) person talking to an autistic person, you have to take, that does not mean you cannot feel hurt by something that I said, but that you should not go wild with non-autistic interpretations and accusations and consider that those with autism may not even know about that you are hurt and that you really need to tell them if you keep talking to them.



Why would you think I am 'so logical'?

About your question, no, I am not a Spock wannabe. Why would you think that?

And, no, I am not afraid of my emotions or strangle them and have been assessed as having a balanced emotional state for having autism and other development disorders according to psychologists, one psychiatrist and therapists.



And I didn't say that either as I didn't write an argument, I wrote to you a question because I wanted to asked you to validate or refute my assumption on how to interpret you laughing and insulting my experiences with autistic people and autism.

It doesn't make sense that you say that I should know anything about your country. I obviously asked you about it. Why do you think I ask you about something? Because I know the answer or why else? Why would anyone ask about something they know the answer to?

I don't know it, but I get the impression you're really playing a social game with me here and I don't like it, because I hate it if people whether they are autistic or not make fun of the impairments of others just because they don't have them.



I don't confuse it. People dxed with Asperger's can present as people with classical autism just without a speech delay.

And I'm back at that I don't understand why you would claim that a kid with classical who is more social and able than another older kid with Asperger's doesn't exist or something. Denying something to exist when there's someone or more people existing like that is a horrible thing. Do you not mind someone saying you don't exist by saying certain things about you are not possible? For other people that is a horrible experience no matter if it may be for you or not.



You got to be kidding me. I can't believe you know much about Asperger's if you imply that. It is disgusting to say to an autistic person and to anybody else for that matter who isn't insincere (in which case it would be the truth to say that they're not sincere as they're not) that their sincerity is a lie by saying they didn't mean to be sincere.



Then if you can because your Asperger's doesn't impair that (it can for others but as I said, with the degree of social skills displayed by insulting me I thought it strange if you could not) then why did you claim that Asperger's is much less debilitating than agoraphobia or schizophrenia?



That's something I don't understand. Besides that I didn't say that Asperger's is more debilitating than agoraphobia or schizophrenia, Asperger's can be autism just without a speech delay.

Some papers say it's very different, others including parts of various criteria say it mostly the same, but regardless of scientific theories and generalisation the reality is that there are people with a dx of AS that present as autism without a speech delay.

If autism and Asperger's are mostly equal, what do you think it would have changed if I said that autism can be far more agoraphobia or schizophrenia?



You said your AS is not a real problem anymore, which you now ironically imply you're not because of completely different thing, including schizophrenia.

Yes, I say you're lucky in that aspect because it's one problem less for you you successfully overcome (as you now said too) which is good isn't it? I mean, would you truly not mind having more difficulties than now?

And I will not care for what you said about what happened to you because you say I'm insincere and a liar. So if I would write that I thought this is no doubt very difficult and a painful experience and that I hope you the best, you would just say I would ridicule you and that I'm lying and that I must mean you're below me so I won't comment at all.



And you know that because of what? You cannot, no matter whether it is true or not.

Come on, I don't understand why you are attacking me for your last two posts and I don't have patience for being attacked by being laughed at, being told my opinion's dirt, that I'm now accused of meaning things that I do not as obviously I did not write them and acting as if I know more about you than what you said when I am pointing out that is exactly what I can't stand about your first post.

I do not understand why you claim you know everything. I can't believe you get worked up about that I say you cannot know everything about all people.

And I can't believe you put words into my mouth! That's the true issue here isn't it and now it is making me angry. I never said Asperger's is worse than agoraphobia or schizophrenia to start with. I've been told that's slander, claiming someone said what they didn't to make them look evil and stupid.

And you even insult me and attacked me on that basis and try to attack me further when I don't attack you back as I should according to the social game but try to understand why you react like that. And then you claim I said this and meant that and that I'm all insincere and supposedly think anything of you when I don't care because I don't know you.



You're one having the nerve to accuse others of bigotry and self-aggrandisement when you toy with people who're not as social- and language-savvy as you who even insults people and laughs at them and claims that they know all!

It is okay to be mild – you pointed out that you're or was that a lie to trick me? - so why on earth do you say that is bigotry and self-aggrandisement?

I work with kids and one is very mildly autistic, the other one even more, is that's possible (has a disorder that presents similar to autism so we don't know) and it is so disgusting that you accuse me of that I supposedly do not accept them (and like working with them) because they are so mild by saying I don't made this comment in sincerity, making an attempt to sound understanding when I didn't understand you (because unknown to me you claimed I said something I did not).

I reiterate these partiuclar points you are glossing over.

You have come up with no examples, no statistics or proof of this claim. I've met other people with Psychosis, and shared experiences with them. If there are some people who have Aspergers, which every medical book I've read says is a milder form of Autism, hence the syndrome prefix, has it worse than someone who has had to stay in a mental ward because of the voices in their head telling them to kill themselves, I'd like an example. You seem to be a person of logic, surely you know of falsifiablity?



It's not what you said, it's what you didn't say. See above.



Taking offence at your comments is not slander, I think I've justified my anger above.



I do not think you evil, I am just insulted by your comments. Besides, could claiming libel when someone is not being libelous be considered Libel in and of itself?



'uneducated'? by your own rhetoric you are being libelous, claiming I know little when I know enough. I have met aspies outside of this board who are perfectly happy, majority or no. I may not have it as bad as some, but As Callista said, the symptoms of Aspergers are not a direct source of psychological pain. I'm sure some aspies out there are happy, even when they are jsut on thier own, they can find respite.



Again with the condescending insults! Alright, what makes you the specialist in this field? I have met people with BOTH those conditions, at support groups and the like. What of you? I'd like to hear some evidence behind these claims.


I didn't say schizophrenia (if you mean this by saying you problems) is not a big problem. Do not put words into my mouth that I did not say.

*AHEM*


Insulting:
"I take it you are just being an intentionally and horribly rude person who displays lots of ignorance on purpose and who has a very uneducated opinion due to that lack of respect."

Belittling:
"But, you are a lucky one that your AS doesn't make you smash your head bloody on the pavement (or smashing someone else's head into the pavement, I mean, doesn't matter which one) or that you're not stripping a little in public."




You frequently used the term 'uneducated'


I assure you that my Imagination is far from impaired.

I thought it would be more insulting to assume anything about you without asking whether it is correct or not. Were you insulted by that I asked you whether you can or can't understand that?



I think my outburst showed that.



Very well, my bad.



If you had looked at my location status, it would've answered your question. And I don't laugh at people who are autistic becuase they are autistic. The laugh in my post was sardonic. Suppose this jsut goes to show that everyone can interpret anyones posts differently from the way they were intended.



Your tone seemed condecending. When you start a post tellign someone that they are uneducated, turnign round and asking a polite question is going to seem like an attack, such mood changes are too subtle to notice.



I'm a dialectition I learn about the world through debate and rhetoric. I'm not pretending to be autistic. I have some doubt, after being on this forum for more than 2 years, and have met some wonderul people and some people who I do not wish to be grouped together with. If you make a comment i agree with, I will agree with it, if your reasoning seems flawed, I will say so, so you can refute it.


define 'classical'. HFA? LFA? I'll try to find my friend's copy of the DSM-IV and see what the diagnosis qualifications are.


You seemed to be implying that even in autism there was a social hirachy where those more debilitating autism begrudge those with less debilitating Autism. Which, incidentally is the tone I got from your original post.



What exactly am I denying the existence of? that was not my intention. It sounds like you are now the one putting words in my mouth.



ever heard of solipsism? I'm sure Reverse-solipsism exists somewhere out there,



I'm not saying nobody exists, I genuinely have no idea where you got that notion from I just think you have a very flimsy idea of what the definition of Aspergers really is.




Right, before I start, I will clear up the insinuation of my comment.

When I said NT boogeyman, I was referring to a lot of people's attitudes towards NTs. I did NOT mean you were some kind of monster in the closet, which I think is how you literally took it. Maybe if I moved the apostrophies it would've been clearer, maybe not.

What i was trying to say is this: you may not so different from non autistics. Shocking isn't it! But while you may have autism, you are still _human_, you still follow the rules of Human biology, psychology, etc. You are _NOT_ some alternate species of homo sapien, and maybe you play social games too, though they are so intrinsic to human interaction that you do not recognise them. Controversial? probably. Diminsihing to you as a person? Asolutely not.


because I have ALL THREE!

by that reasoning, what do you know of Schizophrenia? how can your ( I assume) Non psychotic mind understand the constant torment that schizophrenics suffer from?



you contradict your self with your very next comment





Asperger's is a FORM of autism, but it is not the most SEVERE. Compare Aspergers with Low functioning autism, would you say that the former is more severe than the latter?



I have met a fair few people with both Aspergers and LFA, the differences were phenominal.



If you do wish me well, then I say thank you, if you show no compassion, then you can rot in hell for all I care.



The last sentence i psoted was sheer frustration and anger at how you appeared to undermine the illness that has all but ruined my life. (yeah yeah, let the accusations of emo-ness begin )



then maybe you should learn to be a bit more eloquent, then I wouldnt've taken offence in the first place.

And I still maintain that MILD form of autism is nothing, NOTHING like what I have experienced. Yes it has it's problems, but it is still a _syndrome_.




I do not claim to know everything, that is impossible, it's knowing a few key, important facts that are important. what you said was vastly misleading.

I can't believe you get worked up about that I say you cannot know everything about all people.

now _this_ is misleading. I was offended because your comment was belittling of a serious illness. Let's put it this way. This is a forum for people with Aspergers, right? How many people on this forum have been in a mental institute? How many people have become _permanant_ members of a mental institute? I am neither, but I got lucky, But I've met schizophrenics who have spent time in mental wards.

Like I say, falisfiability: if you make a claim, you must back it up with evidence, if you show none, then it is more than likely false.



What words? I'm jsut saying what I'm seeing. You keep trying to defame mewhen I'm commenting on what you say. Maybe you're not putting your ideas across in an articulate enough fashion, because I don't understand where you're coming from.



I never said YOU ARE STUPID. I said your claim was stupid, but you as a person are not. there's a difference between attacking a person and attacking an _idea_.



I don't know what the intention of your first rebuttal was but I took it as a personal insult.



Um, that _is_ insencerity.




Now THAT's Libel. I have NOT mocked you, I took offence to what you said, and I expressed my feelings, like you are now. so maybe we're not so different.



Your tone was one that sounded mockign and belittling. the whole 'it's ok that you don't bash your head agaisnt the pavement' stuff, as it to say sarcastically 'you're Ok not to be as horribly impaired as I am(whether you were speaking of your own experiences I do not know, and , to be insencere myself now, I no longer care)



what the f**k are you talking about? Now you're putting words into MY mouth! I knew nothing of these children, I do not doubt that they may have troubles, but to say that some people who have a bit of difficulty with social interaction ( i.e. aspergers, NOT LFA, or HFA) is worse off than someone locked in an a padded cell unable to tell reality is f*****g DISPROPORTIONATE.



I have no f*****g clue what you're babbling about now. best of luck with your children, may they have a happy life.

There, see? a bit of fuckign sincerity, more than you could f*****g manage.


you know what. f**k it.

I renounce my Diagnosis of Aspergers.

I'm sick of the BS and people making strawmen arguments. I'm sick of people bashing Neurotypicals. I'm sick of some people showing no f*****g compassion.

Mod, delete this account. I'm sick to death of people like Sora who make vauge handwavy comments about the horros of Aspergers, like nobody else in the f*****g world has problems.

I don't want to be grouped together with people like this anymore. I've seen a lot of good, decent people leave these boards. and I'm tired of putting up with s**t from people because I don't conform to the aspie stereotype.

Delete this account, so i won't be tempted to come back to this forum and be villified by people Like Sora, who takes my words and twists them into an attack on the children she works with.

I noted in your post that you quoted me as saying (part quote).

This was not my quote or opinion, it was Vorzac’s. Perhaps your browser is not displaying the quote sequences correctly. I know the type is rather small, and also, I have posted Vorzac’s quote within my quote. If you search for the quote on page 2, you will find its origin.

As soon as I hear the phrase, ‘playing Devil’s advocate’, alarm bells go off. It means that the person who decides to be the devil’s advocate is not necessarily advocating their beliefs, and enjoy playing ‘games’ with people. It is an insincere position, which I am surprised anyone would admit to.

This is a general warning to all involved; if you must attack, attack the idea, not the person.


M.

I think it is helpful to embrace that which brings you to a greater understanding of yourself. Whether or not one chooses to find meaning in a label is wholly personal.

(I'm new here. Just to clarify, I am an NT who was diagnosed with OCD 10 years ago. I'm not sure if I am welcome here, but I very much enjoy reading the perspectives of Aspies on this board).

On the contrary, I'd say playing Devil's advocate is typically a perfectly healthy approach and people should do it more often. I often do not have a strong position on a matter because I am undecided, but would still be willing to question someone's own convictions on the same matter. Just because someone questions somebody's view doesn't mean they have to hold an opposing view. Being skeptical and critical (without being destructive) is often educational to one and often both parties. Not being critical allows political untruths to thrive.

As an example: I am undecided on whether "hard" drugs like cocaine and heroin should be legalised. I see the cases both for and against, but find it too hard a question to answer. If someone tells me that all drugs should be legalised, I might question them. That's not dishonesty; these are honest questions because I do not subscribe to their point of view. If they are simply naive, they might learn from the points I have to raise. If they have a strong case I have not thought of, I might learn from the points they have to raise. Much better, as far as I'm concerned, than if I just stayed silent.

I'd even go a bit further and say that people should question their own beliefs on a regular basis, and people who share the same beliefs that they do, but that's on (slightly) more difficult ground. Overall I think arguments don't have to be games or trolling, they can be perfectly good-natured and educational provided both parties have a good attitude.

I'm not playing Devil's advocate here, by the way.