Are you ILL with Asperger's?

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does the terminology used really matter that much? I'm not seeing the big deal.

Alba, the gays and the Jews earned their equal status in society in many countries through what's called "lobbying". This is what we're trying to do in my country too. Lobbying. That's the answer, in my opinion. However, I'm very frustrated that I can't help much because lobbying and AS are quite opposite. Lobbying is all about diplomacy, politics, relations, contacts... My good Lord, all my monsters!

But it is their fault if they refuse to understand you when you explain your side of things. It is their fault when they demand that you take off your dark sunglasses even though the light is making your eyes spasm shut and start discharging uncontrollably. It's their fault when even though you've told them you have certain problems they value conformity to the norm over your health and your quality of life.

Well said. This is the core problem.


A conundrum.
We need to brainstorm ways we can help ourselves besides lobbying.
We ARE being discriminated against, and it must stop!
Does anyone know if there have been any lawsuits to stop said discrimination?

I guess the activism forum on here have all the answers... I don't know anything much myself... But I agree, it must stop. At least, when corporate management and corporate advisors lecture us on the highest capital of the companies being how much their staff are able to fit in with the established and unchangeable personality of the company, I want them to feel a tiny pang of self-consciousness rather than the deep self-pride they feel and the applause they expect (and get) at the end of the sentence.

Warning: long story ahead!

Here's my saga, and why I have become convinced that there is no hope and the bullies always win. I just submitted this to reportdiscriminationonline.org:

I am an adult with autism. While my difficulties acclimatizing socially have always made it difficult to maintain long-term employment, I managed for many years to maintain a specific career path; through changes in technology and Corporate policy, that industry eventually evolved into an environment in which I could no longer adequately function.

After a long search for an alternative livelihood, I discovered another niche in which I could function successfully. I apprenticed free of charge, under a friend in another state and obtained a license as a professional tattooist. For four years I drove 4 hours every weekend to learn the craft.

However, my state requires that I go through the entire training procedure again to obtain a license to practice where I live.

I obtained tuition funding through Vocational Rehabilitation for the Disabled and went through a second apprenticeship at a Tattoo School & Shop in my home state. The owners of the school ignored my repeated explanations of my disability and characterized it as mere ‘shyness’, often admonishing me for not being a more aggressive salesman for their shop.

I completed the entire course, as reflected in monthly reports sent by the school to Vocational Rehab, in which the owner/instructors clearly stated that I had completed the course requirements and was ready for my final ‘practical’ exam with a state Health Dept Inspector.

Now that the school has received 100% payment of tuition, they refuse to schedule that test. On the last day I was there, the owner became verbally abusive and yelled at me that he would not allow me to be licensed, unless I stopped having Autism and became a more aggressive salesman (in his words: “work them customers”) [I remind the reader that I had already worked four years in another shop]. He screamed at me “WHY CAN’T YOU JUST BE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE!?”

My Mental Health Counselor advised me not to subject myself to further abuse and appeal to the State Board of Continuing Career Education that holds the school’s certification, which I did. That Board ignored the monthly reports the school’s owners had submitted and interviewed them, but not me. Their inspector’s assertion was that I had no legitimate claim and that it was not that Board’s responsibility to assess discrimination against my disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission will not act, since the dispute is with a school, not an employer. Attorneys advise that since Vocational Rehab supplied the tuition funds, I cannot sue for Breach of Contract, and Vocational Rehab shows no interest in doing so. The Americans with Disabilities Act applies primarily to Federally funded schools and while it seems to apply here as well, only the State Board of Continuing Career Education can enforce it and they refuse to acknowledge that responsibility.

I completed my obligations as a student, the school was paid in full, yet the owners refuse to complete their own obligation, in spite of the documents they filed admitting that I completed the program. Their response to a phone request to do so was to become abusive, insist they would never allow me to become licensed, and hang up.

Without said license, I cannot work in my home state at the one job I am qualified to do. I can find no one willing to advocate on my behalf. If the attitude and behavior of the school’s owner/operators does not constitute discrimination, I cannot imagine what does. In fact, I believe there may be evidence that they have done the same to another disabled student (also funded through Vocational Rehab) previous to my attendance there.

It is my feeling that the State Board of Continuing Career Education is the agency that should be responsible for addressing this discrimination under the Americans with Disabilities Act, and should insist that the school live up to their obligation, or be prosecuted for theft and fraud. They seem more interested in protecting the school’s operators than in defending a disabled student’s rights.

Any advice or assistance would be appreciated.

This is my reading: this guy found a good way to make extra money, he found an organism willing to dish out the money and indifferent enough to the effectiveness of the results, as it's not from their personal pockets. Because Vocal Rehab did their job with you, they don't need to sue the guy. So the guy's safe, Vocal Rehab did their job, and you're the victim in the middle of all the cheating. I wouldn't be surprised if the clerk at VR got a percentage for his niceness in not suing the guy.

I remain wondering why you can't sue for a service not given, even if you didn't pay for the service yourself - it's your time and energy that was cheated, and people do sue for time and energy cheated out of them. What I'd do:

1. Consult several other lawyers (unless they charge you for a consultation, in which case I'd try to find a starting lawyer, or a lawyer willing to have a consultation without charging you for it).
2. Try to find a school that will agree to test and certify me for a moderate fee (and try to charge this money to the Vocal Rehab, or sue them for it).
3. If all else fails, sue the guy and his company in small lawsuit court, which is free and even if you don't get anything, you're sure to make him think twice next time before yelling at you or the next victim. I did this to my insurance agent, just for the pleasure of seeing him stand there and have to answer tough questions to the judge, and I even got a little money refund, which was a pleasant surprise.
4. If all else fails and this crook is the only entity in your State that can grant you a license and you can't work legally without HIS consent, try to apply my new skills to something related where I don't depend on him.
5. If all the above fails, take a little bit of comfort in the fact that now I know that some kinds of business are not good for Aspies, such as tattoo business. To me, it comes intuitively why this is the wrong career for an Aspie, but so many things I have no clue of till it's too late for me. And take a bit of comfort in the fact that at least it didn't cost you money.
6. Ask for another round of Vocal Rehab funding. If they say you already got it once, sue them because in fact you DIDN'T get it - and the reason you didn't get it is that they refuse to sue the guy.

I'm of the opinion that cheaters and abusers thrive in silence. The worst you can do is cooperate with the silence. Expose, expose, expose, expose. That means sue, sue, sue, sue. There's only so much bad rep they can make for themselves in courts before someone starts investigating, and they all know it. You may gain something from all the exposure one day, who knows. You have nothing to lose, and if you're not working, then you have time on your hands to fight.

Now, if you're the kind who prefers to give up rather than have to assert himself in courts, with lawyers, with gov't agencies, etc. then please forget all I wrote. It's not relevant.

Well, I have been determined not to give up, but frankly, I'm at a total loss as to how to proceed. I've consulted with not one, but five different lawyers and each one makes a different excuse as to why they can't or won't pursue it (well, the last one would pursue it for a fat retainer fee and and a monthly expense account). What it seems to come down to, is that proving discrimination in court requires a lot of hard work and they can make plenty of money doing simpler things, like filing paperwork, and still have time for golf.

What galls me is the report filed by the State Board of Cont Ed inspector. I sent her a detailed statement by email, which she took to the school. The owners then told her all kinds of lies that could easily have been exposed by making a couple of phone calls to other state agencies, but she just wrote down everything they said and accepted it as fact. She never bothered to call me at all. But in her final report, she did specify that she was not authorized to enforce the ADA. The Americans With Disabilities Act was specifically created to prevent Discrimination in the workplace and IN SCHOOLS. She works for a state board of Education. If it's not her place to enforce the ADA, then who's is it?

You have a good discrimination case, of course. But I don't think it's discrimination. I think this guy knows in advance that he won't certify you and he only takes you on for the easy money without risk. I suspect you didn't have as hard an admission exam as those coming on their own did, from the point of view of salesmanship.

Then again, I've seen so much dirt in my life that I find it easier to believe these possibilities I raise than most people do who haven't seen all that I've seen. Eg: in companies I used to work, for example, the salesmen give huge discounts and get a percentage of that discount back from the customer for their own pockets. He gives a percentage of that percentage to his boss. Everyone is happy, and the owner knows but has his own hidden agenda why it's convenient for him. Some of the customers find out and complain to the salesman's boss and the boss's boss, only to be written off by TOP MANAGEMENT from the clients' list or punished (again, by top management) by receiving no more discounts. Organized "perks" are a lot more common than people would like to think. NTs know instinctively how to make themselves a useful part of the game, so they're not punished or victimized. We, the genuinely Aspie, fall prey.

Willard, quite the story. You've been treated in an outrageous manner. I hope you won't quit until you have an answer to your question: If it's not her place to enforce the ADA, then who's is it? Above you have posted the content submitted to reportdiscriminationonline.org. May I suggest you send that, along with a cover letter explicitly asking this question, to the IACC?

"The Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee (IACC) coordinates all efforts within the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) concerning autism spectrum disorder (ASD)."
http://iacc.hhs.gov

I took an abnormal psychology class earlier, and they said mental illness and psychological disorder are not the same thing.

To be a disorder, it has to be:

1. Abnormal
2. Affect yourself or others at the clinical level (being abnormal is not enough since everyone is, has to be to the point where professional help is needed)
3. Chronic (everyone will have temporary issues, but is it chronic?)

In a nutshell, disorder means impaired well enough in some area that professional help is needed.

You don't have to have a mental illness. For example in my abnormal psychology class we learned that contrary to what the media says, anti-social personality disorder (psychopath) is not a mental illness but rather a psychological disorder, clinical impairment on those around them. APD know what they're doing is wrong and get a thrill from it. The abnormal psychology book said most psychologists believe prison is the best therapy for them, since they don't usually change and just end up wasting time by manipulating the psychologist.

Oh yeah greentea. I know what you mean. I agree that there is definitely discrimination out there. I just thought it would be funny to mess with someone who engages in that sort of thing. Ya know? Almost a turning of the table, so to speak. Maybe that makes me a touch bit sinister....

NicksQuestions made an excellent point about the precise clinical distinction between a "mental illness" and a "psychological disorder". AS is a disorder insofar as it represents a chronic, clinically significant impairment. It is not transient, mild enough to be ignored, or treatable through personal willpower.

Most people don't know these things. Most people don't know a proton from a protein. That makes getting the help any of us need very difficult in some cases.

But I will add that AS is not just a result of living among NTs. For instance, I have significant sensory issues and seizures, neither of which have anything to do with NTs. Strong sunlight is enough to make me shut down. Flashing light can cause a seizure in my miswired brain.

To Willard and Greentea: Sorry to hear you've been through what you've been through. I hope you can make it work out somehow.

I don't consider myself ill with anything, although I do have a mild seizure disorder, fortunately under control with medication. I also sometimes get really nervous before important events, but I believe that is more anticipatory.

An illness refers to the body or mind out of homeostasis, away from the balance where it was meant to be. Diabetes is an illness. So is depression. Cerebral palsy is not an illness; it's either congenital or the result of an early injury, but in either case it's a life-long trait. Similarly, mental retardation isn't an illness; it's the way you were born or possibly a permanent effect of some injury in your past. Being an amputee isn't an illness; you've healed and acquired a new balanced state with one less limb. An illness refers to something out of balance, as though there were a desired state one could get back to. Autism isn't an illness; it goes against every connotation of the term "illness". "Affected" or "have" or "am" would be much more accurate than "ill with". How I hate inaccurate communication!

Or rather, they don't use it in some cases, though they might have it.

Last edited by AnnePande on 04 Sep 2009, 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.