Declaring ourselves a minority group

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ASMAN
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01 Dec 2004, 2:48 pm

coyote wrote:

Let me clarify,

I am talking about social skills, EXCLUSIVELY social skills. That is precisely one of the 3 major criteria for the diagnostic. As for the example of beeing poor at our job, this apply only in the context where the job's description would be about beeing good at social skills.

Poeple DO rank others on thier social skills, almost exclusively. They will accept or reject others based on that input.

Even so
Aspies can manage people and projects. not all aspies. Aspies cannot be leader like Thomas Jefferson? Who apparently was an aspie??

This is why the work of AFF is so important. We have to be careful not to adopt the limiting beliefs of ourselves given by NTs.

coyote
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01 Dec 2004, 3:08 pm

You are refuting my generalisation by citing an exception, that's a fallacy.

Isn't the lack of social skills and the consequent reject that make us feel like we're on the wrong planet ?

ASMAN
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01 Dec 2004, 3:27 pm

coyote wrote:

You are refuting my generalisation by citing an exception, that's a fallacy.

Isn't the lack of social skills and the consequent reject that make us feel like we're on the wrong planet ?

Do we lack social skills or our social skills different? These so called skills are important to NTs. They just have to learn those skills or social obsessions are not important to us.

I grew up in an aspie family. Believe me we can socialize, just not the same nor as much. We prefer company in the same room without necessarily talking. NTs feel obligated to chitchat.

ASMAN
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01 Dec 2004, 3:32 pm

coyote wrote:

You are refuting my generalisation by citing an exception, that's a fallacy.

Isn't the lack of social skills and the consequent reject that make us feel like we're on the wrong planet ?

Ok

We feel like we are on the wrong planet simply because our brains are wired differently from NTs. Different not worse. So here come the problem NT out number us. that is the reason for the problem

vetivert
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01 Dec 2004, 3:35 pm

a question - why is there so much apparent misinterpretation of the posts of others on this thread? genuine question - i'm very curious.

ASMAN wrote:

We have to be careful not to adopt the limiting beliefs of ourselves given by NTs.

i don't accept any such thing, just on the basis of somebody telling me i should. however, i DO accept that i am crap at relationships... oops, perhaps i should say "i find relationships difficult", as i must be positive. i'm going on decades of experience here, not what anyone has told me.

i don't find the tone of coyote's post (three posts ago) disgusting, either. i find it lucidly put, and a useful metaphor for what i thought we were discussing here.

right - i need some clarification. what exactly, and i mean EXACTLY, does "declaring ourselves a minority group" entail? what would be the purpose? what political, social, financial gains or benefits would it bring? how would we go about it? what comparative examples would you cite (for clarification)? how EXACTLY would we go about it?

i have yet to understand what the point is here, other than a general call to arms, with no modus operandi, logical reasoning or sound political methodology behind it. and if this sounds antagonistic to anyone, well then just re-read the two paragraphs above and read what i'm REALLY asking here. (i.e convince me)

coyote
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01 Dec 2004, 3:41 pm

I agree that we are not inferior, just different. Unfortunatly, it is not the advice fo 98% of the population. I personnaly think that comming out there stating that we wanted to be recognized, is a shooting in our own feet.

Each time i tried to justify my behaviour i ended up beeing ridiculised, laugh at. And since they are all on the same wavelenght, they all agree that i was inferiour so i had no ressources. I think that if we try to ask the world to respect us, they will just laugh at us. Look what happened to Michelle Dawson :cry:

monastic
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02 Dec 2004, 8:06 am

Quote:

I think that if we try to ask the world to respect us, they will just laugh at us. Look what happened to Michelle Dawson

Yes, some will laugh, but a few will listen. Women have had this problem for ages too. Women have had to fight for the right to be heard, respected and treated as equals not inferior, to men. We've been laughed at many times. Some countries still keep their women as slaves or property. It's a long struggle but should defeat have us give up? I think not.

Autistics have a long, hard struggle ahead of them, too. We cannot give up on having the right to be heard. The difference between our struggle and the struggle of womens rights is this; The goal of many groups and associations are to erase us as autistics from the world....to eliminate us from ever being born. I hear there's even a few that are trying some sort of "shock therapy" for some outrageous reason I can't even fathom.

ASman wrote:

Quote:

You're right ASman, our social skills ARE different. My family is mostly aspies/HFA too. Many times we don't communicate with mere words.

My most enjoyable time together is when we speak to each other in nothing but phrases from movies or shows we like. It can be quite comical at times because a few of us can even mimic certain actors/character voices perfectly which is lots of fun, too. NT's that happen to be around when these exchanges occur are either completely amused or look at us like we're nuts. Who cares, though....we're having fun. Some just don't get it :roll:

Their loss.

gwynfryn
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03 Dec 2004, 6:00 pm

Glenn wrote:

When mentioned in the media there seems to be little understanding of the condition and it is presented in a negative and rather ignorant way. Examples of this include a recent murder case where a young man killed a young girl at a party (she had been teasing him, but it was mentioned he had attacked other people previously). The reports made quite a point of saying that the young guy had Asperger's, although they stopped short of saying that was the cause of his murderous behaviour. (The implication was there, though) Another case reported in the news was of a middle aged couple who attempted suicide - only the father succeeded - because of despair over their daughter who had Aspergers and had run up debts on their credit cards to the tune of some ¬£30,000 (if I remember aright) buying fashion items, designer clothes and shoes etc. Again, the suggestion was that this is the sort of behaviour you can expect frpm someone with AS. Nobody pointed out that in general, Aspies are not interested in fashion or physical appearence in general, and nobody seemed to question what the parents were doing in any case to allow the girl to use their credit cards to such an extent!
I am not suggesting that such stories amount to evidence of prejudice.

Hello Glenn, but what you've written is exactly that! If you are like me, the prejudice arises from the fact I can't read body language (and therefore don't do "status games" and related crap) but am otherwise fully able (extremely so in fact, at least where technology is concerned) but this understanding of AS never get's a mention in the mainstream does it?

That I'm denied work simply because the bosses can't abide anyone who doesn't constantly display the "respect" they think they are entitled to, is a personal injustice and a drain on the economy; it should be a hot issue, but instead we get stories about people who are labelled AS but bear little resemblence to the condition as described by Asperger himself! Why does this situation prevail if it isn't deliberate?

vetivert
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05 Dec 2004, 5:12 am

vetivert wrote:

right - i need some clarification. what exactly, and i mean EXACTLY, does "declaring ourselves a minority group" entail? what would be the purpose? what political, social, financial gains or benefits would it bring? how would we go about it? what comparative examples would you cite (for clarification)? how EXACTLY would we go about it?

i have yet to understand what the point is here, other than a general call to arms, with no modus operandi, logical reasoning or sound political methodology behind it. and if this sounds antagonistic to anyone, well then just re-read the two paragraphs above and read what i'm REALLY asking here. (i.e convince me)

as much as i loathe people who quote vast chunks of previous threads (PLEASE edit down to the germane bits, folks), i want to re-iterate my questions above.

as i suspected, they have not been answered. it puts me in mind of the extremely well-intentioned but lacking in understanding SWP (Socialist Worker's Party - and i am a raving socialist, btw) here in the UK, who shoot themselves in the foot on a regular and frequent basis, mainly by being very shouty and having no idea of HOW to persuade people to their arguments.

the SWP too cannot answer questions such as those above, without referring to one of their tracts (classic quote: "i can't answer that - i haven't read that leaflet yet". no joke).

well, i remain unconvinced. basically, and without making any personal attacks (i'm really not) or being inflammatory - put up or shut up.

fair comment?

p.s. i really haven't made up my mind, yet - i am not antagonistic to some of the ideas posited here, just extremely unclear as to what those ideas are. as i said - convince me.

ASMAN
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05 Dec 2004, 3:22 pm

vetivert wrote:

i don't understand this thread at all.

are haemophiliacs a minority? are short-sighted people? are people with more or less than the standard leg-length in trousers?

the phrase is "discriminated against". there are any number of discriminatory practices in the world. we are all, basically, in a minority of one.

i don't understand why we should be so militant - discrimination, where it occurs in this case, is through ignorance or lack of information.

please someone explain this thread to me?

V

Well, dont you know that disabled groups are working on having ALL disablities recognized as a minority? And if that passed we will be known as a minority but also labelled as disabled.
Do we want to be a social minority or a disabled minority???
see
http://www.mysan.de/international/article9473.html

Last edited by ASMAN on 05 Dec 2004, 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ASMAN
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05 Dec 2004, 3:32 pm

TaliDaRadical wrote:

As an Autistic person of color who is already involved in ethnic activism, I believe that disabled people of all types are already classified as a protected minority....
If you're saying that Autistics are a separate race, that's quite silly. Autistics don't look different than anybody else. We come in all colors and nationalities.

Tali

(one of favorite people on WP, holla to ya!!)
anyway,

We are a minority similar to the jewish minority, they are in all races and nationalities. But they have a genetic history that binds them together.

We too have a genetic history that binds us together. Edan of aspergia has it right in calling it a diaspora.

ASMAN
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05 Dec 2004, 3:44 pm

coyote wrote:

Poeple judge other poeple by the way they act and react to others. When one comes into a group there is always that competition taking place. Members of the group will "test" the new one. They will tell him some ugly thing for example and they will intensly observe the reactions. Will he answer with ugly things ? Will he started laughing and bring the situation to a funny one ? Will he collapse and start crying ? ect.... This is taking place in the first 5 minutes and everyone in the group will "rank" the new one according to those sings. This is called "social hierarchy". Because of how we, Aspies, react, we are almost always sent to the bottom of the scale.

Unfortunatly, this is how society works. Everyone "ranked" everyone unconsiously according to his social skills. This is why some are teased while some other are elected "president of the republic". It all depends on your score at the social game that takes place everywhere, everytimes, with everyone.

With that minority group thing, we are asking to be treated as if we were higher in the social scale, because our lack of performance in this area is not due to a lack of competances, but is due to a pathology. This is like going in the president office and saying "I know i'm not good at my job but it's not my fault, it's due to a pathologic condition. Therefore, i request i'd be promote to a boss position because inside me, i know that's where i belong." This is simply NOT going to work. At best you will be kicked out of the office and sent back to your bottom of the scale position. At worst, you will be fired because you acknowledged that your not good at your job !

Our problem is beeing sent at the bottom of the social hierarchy because of our poor social skills, and no one is going to let you get in front of them in that endlessly, ferocious, unfair competetion, because it's not your fault !

That is only my opinion. It may sound as if i think i know everything, it's not the case. In fact, i don't know how it sounds at all :wink:

, just take the words to what they say. You are all invited to agree/refute/argue/comment on it.

You sound down because you were treated badly. I am sorry to hear, But if it is any consolation we are all including myself. You get to a point where you feel there is no point trying bcasue we cant get anywhere. As if we are already defeated. But that is not true. We are already a minority. The UN just has to recognize it. This process just allows it to be known officially

ASMAN
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05 Dec 2004, 5:03 pm

vetivert wrote:

hi
this is to help all those on the spectrum. Not just for your worry about having crap relantionships.
Its for people who cant speak and people who have never had a job or keep one!! or the 10% who commit suicide. its for unity of those on the spectrum. not just aspies.

Also this minority thing is one of the few things that we are doing for ourselves not being done to us by NT parents. like the court case in Canada. where they wanted to subject every autistic kid to the horrors of ABA!!!ABA is VERY controversial. This was something NT parents was gonna have decided FOR us rather than US being the decision makers.

vetivert
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05 Dec 2004, 6:01 pm

sorry if i'm being either tedious or pedantic, but you still haven't answered my questions, asman.

if anyone is wondering WHY i keep harping on about this, it is for this reason:

advocacy for and education about AS is too important to be be presented in a sloppily-argued, woolly-minded way, which might be seen by some as even resorting to snide, personal remarks. i have no personal "agenda" here, other than the fact that i have AS, and am doing as much as i can to educate and support students and staff with AS (i am both) at my university college. i have also had years of experience in non-party politics, and remember very well the fledgling feminist movement of the 1970's.

PLEASE, for the sake of actually having the effects we all want, can we just stop this bickering, these personal agendas, this woolliness, and state, clearly, concisely, cogently and with conviction, what it is we are looking for, here. if we don't we shall simply be laughed out of court. AS advocacy and education should not be held back because we cannot decide what the hell's going on.

it seems to me that the "Allies" thread suggests something which is not only extremely positive, but also a practical and workable modus operandi which GETS RESULTS. please read it.

ASMAN
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05 Dec 2004, 6:13 pm

Hey

vetivert!!!whoa!!

I responseded a little bit earlier, But for the lastest post today, got to give me some time. I have an offline life with stuff to do!!

How is the jumper coming??? Oh by the way , from the chat room earlier, I did not quite get your view on casien and gluten. Another very important subject, in fact should be its own thread here. PM here or start a new topic. I might because this is very important!!

vetivert
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05 Dec 2004, 6:47 pm

take all the time you need, asman - as i said, this is extremely important.

the jumper is coming along nicely, thank you. as for casein and gluten - i am always all in favour of dietary or complementry therapies which; a) work, and b) stop anyone having to use so many drugs. other than that, i have little direct experience of their effect on AS, and so do not feel qualified to comment any further.

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