How did discipline influence your personality?

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I'm going to post a link to the thread on the parenting forum, specifically the pages that sparked KEYPREAL creating this thread:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf115676-0-30.html

In the interest of helping lurkers best find the parts of information that most interest them, I would suggest that posters try to put parenting philosophies on the thread in parenting, and personal thoughts on the ways their parent's parenting influenced their outlooks as adults here. Not that anyone is going to be pushy about which posts go where, of course. It's just a suggestion.

It is obvious that we try to be certain that he understands the request or direction, but we will follow the rule -first obey and then if you got questions we'lll answer. Because what tends to happen is he tries to contest logically or simply takes to long to snap out of his present thoughts. If most kids don't understand the purpose of rules but obey he doesn't need to either. He can figure it out or ask why later. The transition fase is a delicate matter but he must understand that it's ok to go on a mind gap but if his in a social ocasion he has to maintain awareness and focus on his surroundings and not sink into his personal thoughts.
When in another thread I wrote that AS individuals are driven by social admiration like any other person I didn't mean that they want to be pop stars. I just meant that they try to use their special interests or abilities to get the social recognition (peers or just one best friend) that they can't through empathic interaction. I'd like to point out that it's just a personal thought and in no way it was induced by a therapist.



This is my point exactly!! I can answer his fifty questions but next time around he'll have another fifty, even for the same subject. Is this a need to understand or just a need to assert? Spokane Girl, do you think you needed those answers or would you be better off just assuming some things are so and focus your attention on other matters? Isn't this why AS people need to have routines? So they're not flooded with questions and doubts about every mundane subject?



This seems like ideal but it won't work with my kid (at least at this point) because once he's arguing it turns into a logic competition, and even if he starts to flaw it turns into a self-pride thing and at this stage you're gonna raise your voice and force him and he'll meltdown and everyone is miserable.

I did it because I was curious and I always wanted to know why, now I do it to understand. I was also impulsive and if I got told to not do something and why, I still get curious and do it anyway just to see it. Such as mom tell me to not touch the stove because it's hot. I would touch it anyway just to see how hot it is. Also I would get obsessed about something and keep talking about it. I still do that and it's hard to move on but I am able to stop but it's still in my head. My husband puts up with it and my mom has asked how does that make him feel and ho does he deal with it. He says he doesn't care and it's part of me. If people refuse to explain something to me, I just think what they said was invalid and it was their opinion not a fact.

Aspies have routines because it keeps them calm and hey it keeps them less aspie. It also helps them keep organized and in line. I'm a mess without them but I don't get upset anymore if I have to change it. They're just there to keep me busy and hey everyone has routines or else no one would know what to do with their days or how to get ready for work. I find it hard to believe that someone doesn't have a routine. With aspies, theirs is just restricted because they get upset if it changes or they get interrupted and oh boy the rest of their day is ruined just because they woke up late before work and they are unable to do their normal routine.

I totally agree - and that's what Stanley Milgram's famous electric shock experiment was all about.

I was raised by parents who were themselves raised in the 1930s; in my mother's case, at least, by parents who still adhered very much to a Victorian 'children should be seen and not heard' style of child-rearing. My folks expected obedience simply because they were my parents; I started to rebel as soon as I realized that other parents weren't as strict as mine. Actually, by my teens, I'd cottoned on to the fact that my folks were big hypocrites; actually more or less OK with being downright mean to people, as long as they appeared to be 'nice', proper and middle-class (they were actually working class with pretences). Also, they expected a great deal more obedience from me than they ever had from my brother (even in the 1950s when they raised him), simply because I was a girl. I worked out my real moral background - how it's OK or not OK to treat people - from watching others, and from the experience of how they treated me. My parents' idea of 'right' and 'wrong' was pretty arbitrary when you looked at it closely.

Also, obedience doesn't go far enough. However many rules you have, obeying them won't teach anyone how to react in a totally new situation; to do that, you have to have some way of judging for yourself what's the right thing to do. To give one example, my only sex education consisted of 'Don't do it'...which is OK if you're never going to go out and meet guys who might have sex in mind, let alone at some point go out there and have sex in mind yourself...but pretty useless when you do. (Only the few available, rather dodgy books, and a large amount of sheer dumb luck stopped me getting into deep trouble. Naturally, I have dim views of abstinence-based sex ed.)

I was only smacked as a very small child, but like some other people here, I experienced a lot of verbal abuse. It was thought hurting me enough would make me 'a normal girl' (don't forget, this was the 1980s and they were expecting a 'normal girl' by 1940s standards!). It failed miserably, and it left me with virtually no relationship with my parents; in addition, my mother's favoritism and emotional blackmail left me with such a tenuous relationship with my brother that I'm only now, in middle age, now that both our parents are dead, starting to salvage it. I think my brother suffered too from their attitude, but in different ways - as I said, he was treated more leniently because of being a boy, plus he's NT. One thing we do have in common is that we both have artistic leanings - both my parents hated art and artists ('filthy druggies' as they called them). My brother was so thoroughly brainwashed out of art that he joined with both my parents in arguing that no way should I go to art college. Now, in his 50s, he's going to galleries and talking about getting back into painting.

Obviously, I'm sceptical about the value of absolute obedience. Not that I expect anyone to listen to child-rearing advice from me as I don't have kids...and with my baggage, it's probably just as well.

It had none on me, I was never disciplined because I never needed it, I never actually did anything deserving punishment and followed rules like a fanatic. I was never abused either.

Here are some tips that may help you.

Young people need consequences and rewards. If your son is not following the rules than you need to provide him with a consequence. You cannot threaten and back away either! As soon as he is doing the wrong behavior, punish him. If you do not, you are teaching him "I can do this much ______ (trouble) and get away with it". You have to follow through with your punishment as well - do not make his punishment something he might enjoy, otherwise he will purposely get in trouble. It might not be an enjoyable experience for him or even you - but take a more of a fuzzy approach to this; emotions are not inherently good or bad - the individual labels them good or bad. We like to give discipline the "bad" label, but it is in fact one of the more important things in our lives (see most religions). If you provide him with a reward (again be consistent and structured "if you do this then you will get this) you may also see some better behaviour.

If you want to be an autocrat, then what you want is respect and a reputation. This is terribly complicated between children and adults. A child with Autism may not respect you. I know for myself my levels of respect towards others can be completely random. Respect comes from relationship building and reputation. You can build a reputation by being consistent. Relationship-building is hard for people with AS. It is an ongoing process. I will give you an example. I am a fairly logical person. I often see others as illogical and hypocritical. Because I cannot understand people I dislike them if they are not actively trying to build a relationship with me.

When you are explaining rules you need to say why. "You need to do this because _________". "If you do not do this then". For me, rules are always "if, then" or "this, because". If you cannot think of a reason for a rule, then you need to relate the rule to yourself - this will help with theory of mind problems: "What you did made me feel sad _______" or "If you do this I will be very upset because this is important to me... " ." Because I want what is best for you, I want you to do this" or "because I love you, I need you to do this". Sometimes defiance of rules has to do with an inability to anticipate what will happen (this is a theory of mind/executive dysfunction problem). If you can settle down this anxiety, then your son may start doing things that he cannot easily anticipate. This has to do with trust - it is built up. But also, sometimes, you just need to make life hard. I often did not want to go to school. I could not anticipate how the day would go. But eventually, I was forced to, and I learned to enjoy school. Good! Sometimes the pressure needs to be put on. An example is that when I was very young I would not go down a water slide. It was scary and against my own rigid inner logic. My uncle forced me to go down. I know enjoy taking risks. Sometimes discipline can be very uncomfortable for children, but there is nothing wrong with being uncomfortable.

I do not know what the rules are in your family, but possibly you should only have a few that are very broad such as "Everyone deserves respect" "Treat everyone fair in the family" or " I am responsible". You can than (physically and visually) create a concept map for you son. Put something like "I am responsible" on a piece of paper. Then underneath write "brushing my teeth" or "cleaning my room" or whatever. Then explain "I am responsible, I will brush my teeth" or "If I want to be responsible, I will brush my teeth (rigid thinking) or "I am responsible because I brush my teeth". This is how autistic people think. It is in categories. The categories can be tremendously complex and large. Think of a tree! The categories can also be extremely rigid. Rigid thinking can stop an autistic person from seeing that both "brushing my teeth" and "cleaning my room" fall under the same category as "being responsible". You have to visually draw this out for your son and give him practice, practice, practice.

There is nothing wrong with being authoritarian. Being an open-minded and free-thinking person requires discipline. Discipline can be a learned behavior. Also, never let your child use his difference "autism" as an excuse to misbehave. He will have to learn how to tow-the-line between learning to fit in with the rules of a "NT" world and being an active participant that can change unfair rules - a complicated feat, but he cannot learn excuses or negative self-talk.

Also there is a difference between discipline and punishment. Discipline means "to teach" or "to lead to learning". You may be philosophically against punishment, but this does not mean you should be philosophically against discipline.

Last edited by MrTeacher on 17 Jan 2010, 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

I was subject to in many cases an authoritarian style of discipline, sometimes in the form of physical sorts of discipline and sometimes in the form of other heightened punishment for being the one who spoke up or stood up for myself, and let me tell you, it did NOT do anything to heighten my respect for authority. Even as an adult, I remain thoroughly convinced that "because I say so" is never a good answer to a curious person, that asking and answering questions is not a form of undermining authority, and that rules should have a reason rather than just for creating more discipline. I see no reason for authoritarianism when other options are almost always available.

It kind of helped me and hurt me in areas in my personality

"do it because I say so" is basically telling him to automatically accept authority...just because.

And the simple fact that you say it that way suggests you have absolutely no better reasoning than that to make him follow your rule. It also suggests to him you don't even know why he should follow it except to stroke your ego.

I assure you...that will only lead to problems later on, and understandably so.

oh this reminds me...there was a teacher/counsellor at school who had absolutely 0 qualifications to be a counsellor. Anytime I was in discussions with her (elementary school) she'd tell me a bunch of crap and I'd be telling her WHY I did such and such. She called it 'answering back' as if it was a bad thing and that frustrated me to no end. I'm like WTF, you did want to know why I do such and such, right?

Thing is I can't remember what it was she was on my case about in the first place.

from my experience, the majority usually have little more qualifications than that as it is....

I grew up to be a rebel, because of the spankings I got as a child. That's my reason for not believing in spankings.

I was pretty much disciplined for everything.

Though in most cases the majority of it was not directly by my parents; it was people who advised my parents to seek help for me for this or that, cause, y'know..."he's not acting right".

It basically taught me "why should I care what anyone thinks of me? What they think of me is usually nothing good as it is..and it's not as though I'm doing anything to initiate the poor treatment".

It also taught me to question why I should do "this or that". In many cases, the only answer folks could come up with was "because"...which isn't an answer. It's little more than intimidation, and a "follow the pack" mentality.

Why sell out to impress that? If I were to go to the lengths the crowd told me to, I'd never have been myself anymore, and believe me...half the recommendations the pack suggested...I would've been disgusted with myself for following thru on.

I was even reprimanded at work--back in NJ--for trying to have fun with customers and joke around with them, while I rang them up.

If you haven't noticed, I'm no longer in NJ; NJ didn't want me, and I don't want NJ.

I have a bit of fun these days with my customers at my day job, but I'm almost never really focused on having fun with them anymore, as I am just getting the job done.

Basically, the crowd was trying to tear me down; it failed miserably; and now they're intimidated by me, and since I know their game plan, absolutely can't win.

My ideas and plans will prevail, and have more than enough self-confidence to see them thru.

Autocrat was just a figure of speech to say that rules are not negociable and don't need to be justified verbally (at least before compliance). But it is true that this kind of relationship brings bigger responsability because these rules and actions need to be reinforced by the example of the tutor. And you can't let any misbehavior go unpunished or unmentioned at least. No pretending you didn't hear or I'm not to bother right now! Consistency is the main issue. And that alone will get the message trough and build solid caracter.

What's really maddening is my mom STILL tries to 'discipline' me now and then. Only, it'll be passive-aggressive bullcrap.

Like, if she's not happy with the amount of housework I'm doing, she'll choose from among the following:

"You aren't paying enough rent, you don't do enough housework"
"Maybe you should go live somewhere else"
"Maybe you should go live in a GROUP HOME"

Or worse still, she'll start a BS conversation that invariably leads to a shouting match with statements like:

"Don't you think you're stuck in a rut?"
"Are you afraid if you're ever cured of Aspergers that you'll STOP liking Transformers?"
"You don't want to be cured. You want to just sit around all day playing on the computer and playing games."

Last night I discovered she'd put some stuffed animals of mine (three snowmen and two reindeer plushies) in a box in the storage area. I went out and got them because that's not where they belong, and it was 1am and I was going to bed and wanted at least two of them in the bed with me and mom threw a fit and physically tried to prevent me from retrieving them.

It's days like this I feel like putting up an ad on Craigslist "Spayed female free to good home" (heh, but I'd have to get spaded first )