Temple grandin , is she right?

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All OF U RETURN TO THE MAIN TOPIC!! !! !

Okay, closer to the original topic (I do think the side-discussion was a discussion of one aspect of the main topic), I don't think autistic children should be prevented from playing video games in favor of programming.

One, because autistic kids should be allowed to play.

Two, because not all autistic kids are even good at programming.

Three, because there really aren't a lot of programming jobs, it's not even practical.

Four, because autistics shouldn't have our entire childhood be a giant Job Preparation Unit.

Ok, I guess I don't know too much about programming. I am sort of new, it is just annoying if I am copying a code that the teacher gave us and it ends up not working for whatever reason. I have problems isolating the problem because I would have to comment out everything.

Unemployment may be a part of the economy, however, I tend to doubt that the economy depends on much unemployment. Unemployment does affect inflation by keeping it low which is perhaps your stronger case however there are some doubts about the Phillips curve where this idea comes from, but in order for the flow of a capitalist society to work what is required is frictional unemployment which is only temporary unemployment and just like switching between jobs.

Dependent is a word that I use to define a person that relies on social programs for their living as opposed to those that work and provide their own living. It of course can be argued earning one's own living is depending on society but it is equally society depending on you and as well, by taking care of yourself you are taking independent actions to maintain control over your life. Also, public education does not constitute dependence in my mind, neither does military or police protection.

Biased in what manner? I mean, wouldn't employment be biased towards people who interview well(an aspie weakness), who have necessary education/knowledge, who have experience and who have good references? Of course, other things might factor in such as the boss's son will always get the job and stuff like that, however, such things are not significant in the extreme and the qualifications for getting a job are just hurdles that we must find ways to face in one way or another. Aspies have succeeded and we must find ways to get more of them to do so.

What jobs screw people over may I ask? The economy works from people supplying goods and services to others that desire them. The only thing I can think of that might screw people over are the things that try to subvert the law, I know it happens, however, I tend to don't that most of the employed people are actively trying to subvert the law. Selling cheetoes, selling SUVs or even selling cigarettes are not bad things because people are buying and because they are legal under the current system. Of course, we might want to illegalize 1 or more of these things and as such end the sale of the products for whatever reason, still people buy these things because they want them.

How do those that don't work serve society? There obviously has to be examples, ok, yes I will give you the fact that a stay at home mom serves society but she is willingly unemployed and supported by her partner. As a unit, the husband and wife are employed because somebody must bring home the bacon.

Attitudes do change but people, especially in America, hate taxes. People who don't pay their way and rely on government programs take tax money and ultimately take these people's money. In the short run, the attitude will not change and in the long run it would be easier for aspies to have their children learn useful abilities then to change the culture and attitudes of 100+million people.(this representing half of the country).

Certainly some people do things that are not necessarily good, I will admit that. I never said that the wealthy were living gods or anything, far from it. Really, we need to punish white collar crime if possible, however, the wealth of the wealthy does benefit the economy. Also, I mentioned and honest day's work because people who do this work will not require as much support from society. They are still more respected than those without any work. I also do realize that many people disrespect the wealthy due to their wealth, the thing is that many of these people are powerless and really have no noticeable influence anyway. If they were the most powerful group then America would be a socialist state.

Once again, I think that your definitions would end up being too broad and ultimately dilute the meaning of such terms. Not all accomplishments would bring aspies respect and things that we need despite being personal successes for the people that undertake these endeavors. It can be defined as a personal success to build a tower out of big macs but a person who would do so would lose both power and respect(although respect could be seen as a form of power).

Ok, I will give you childrearing, however, private funds go towards the childrearer, not government funds(this is assuming a 2 parent situation where one stays at home). Because of this, it could be seen that the bacon-bringer is paying the childrearer to do the job of raising children. Child raising is not paid for because people want to do it on their own and need no incentive to do so. It really is not important for any individual to do it because we have enough children.

GIVE ME A FREAKING CONTRIBUTION BY THE UNEMPLOYED!! ! Don't give me this BS about "you don't spend enough time around us". All of you have shown me is that unemployed people are placeholders in an economy. That is not an accomplishment!! Provide an example.

Well, the reason why I brought up the bigotry was because to some extent it is necessary to believe that some positions tend to be bad. We can be bigots against bigots(sort of paradoxical) and be intolerant of bigotry. Bigotry is just the intolerance to a group that is different and it is necessary in order to condemn certain behaviors. I am intolerant of crime. I am bigoted against criminals and I think this is a good thing. We should do something to keep criminality from existing. Criminals are not part of my group and I am intolerant to them. Some bigotry is part of existence. Some bigotry serves a purpose, racism doesn't, religious intolerance doesn't (for the most part, there are some dangerous cults so it could be argued that an anti-cult bigotry could be beneficial), and political tolerance doesn't serve a purpose, however some groups need to be reduced for the good of society(like criminals and things like that) bigotry includes intolerance for groups. Fight bad bigotry, not all bigotry.

Society ignores the unemployed. It does not step on your backs. There is a difference. Stepping on your back would be slavery and exploitation. Society displays indifference. However, employment is a cure for unemployment and I think it is a hard case to make to demand respect for the fact that the unemployed don't do anything and you have not even disproven that.

Let's see, retired people have already done their share of the labor and now desire to sit back and enjoy the fruits of said labor. Nothing wrong with that so long as they have the money to do so. Disabled people have a bad background(disability) which is something wrong, ability is the virtue and disability is an undesirable trait to some extent, ideally we should cure disability and I hope that we can give aspies the most ability that we can. Society is noticeably biased towards the young and the dynamic and changing this would be like taking the job of Atlas, it might change over time but it would take a while and would be hard to do without massive resources devoted to that task.

Saving the lives of the people in your building is only a contribution to the micro-society (for lack of a better word) of your building. It contributes nothing or almost nothing to society as compared to most workers. Workers contribute valuable labor/ideas to society and a lot of it/them every year. This labor keeps the factories and the banks and every thing running, and these ideas improve society. The work of one person to some extent touches thousands of lives if only indirectly. Even a lowly fast food worker can expect to touch many lives by providing those people with food.



Ok, ok, it is just that deviations from the main topic are a natural thing that occurs.



1) I don't think that she is against autistic kids playing, I think she is against the large amount of time spent on games and activities of that nature. It is probably alright in her eyes for an autistic kid to spend the occasional hour on playing but it is just that there are probably quite a few autistics that play games at the detriment of their future and spend too many hours on such games.

2) This is a valid point, not all autistics would be interested in programming. I think the point is to get them interested in something valuable. Getting them interested in math or science or even in the arts could also end up as a good thing. The issue at hand is that autistics can often find themselves with a dismal future and things must be done to change that.

3) Right, once again, I think the point is simply to attack the wasted time on video games. Although, I really don't know the full extent of the programming market. I know it is currently very lucrative so it might be a good field simply because of possible growth. Video games are popular and math models using computer simulations are probably also useful too.

4) Well, autistics should be prepared for a job. I don't think that denying autistics a childhood would necessarily be needed but even if that is the case, parents would have to do it or otherwise they would have to accept the burden of being responsible for their child's welfare for the rest of that child's life, this is something that they would probably never accept. It is better to have a bad past then to have a bad future.

Heeyyy that's OK I can handle that kind of political discussion...and I'm not even American...

Somebody may have said this already...I haven't bothered to read all these overlong, bickering posts...but surely aspie/autistic kids need to be able to develop their social and recreational skills more than anything else. You can be the most gifted programmer in the world (sheesh now there's one Aspie stereotype that I don't fit into) but if you're chronically lonely, depressed and have no other interests in life, then where's your motivation to work?

If you don't have fun when you're a kid then you'll be forever seeking it in adult life. That's when it's more dangerous and more counter-productive because you don't know how to deal with it, or balance it with your responsibilities...including your job.

I think autistic kids are kids first. While it's nice to plan ahead, you really can't burden a pre-teen with worries about his/her future. Autistic kids are no more mature than non-autistic kids (ie: we don't grow up any faster).

One of the diagnostic criteria for autism is a difficulty with imaginative play. I would think giving a kid a chance to develop an imagination would be a *good* thing.

Well, I think that Temple Grandlin's problem is with video games, which eat into time severely and give back almost nothing especially in light of a problem with Aspie employement. There is no argument against aspies having fun, only against aspies wasting time and becoming unemployable as adults. The reason why people are seeing this as programming vs fun is because of a ridiculously biased poll or even ridiculously biased people. I believe that aspies should probably have fun too and that is what I voted for, but I do believe that aspies need to do more to become employable. The "stupid video game" comment was only one comment in the entire article and does not even imply that these children shouldn't have fun but rather that they should learn valuable skills when growing up such as programming. The reason why programming was specifically mentioned was because this is a computer website article, not one for science or art or anything, just computers. I love computer games too, but I realize that a future is more important than a few more hours of gaming pleasure each day.

Of course we must make sure that Aspie kids are healthy, however, I don't think that a greater emphasis on the future would really destroy most aspie kids. Many aspies(and NTs for that matter) don't spend their free time productively and we all sort of know it. One of the things that I loved as a kid was video games and they have not done a thing for me, I am not saying that they should be outright forbidden or anything but still, many aspies would prefer to play a video game than use their imaginative play or get together with friends and aspies need all of the help they can get, not a leech of time like video games can be.

Believe it or not, I think there are real problems that can happen with video games, but they're not necessarily the ones Temple Grandin thinks about.

But I don't think autistics should be singled out as not playing them.

Most children don't spend their time what adults would call productively, but much of what they do really is productive. I don't think there are many autistic children who have no future because they play video games, and if so, one would think that moderation, rather than removing them altogether, would be the response, unless the particular parents don't believe in any video games or something for any kid not just autistics.

Well I never had video games as a kid, they were pretty primitive things back in those days, but I did have Lego, a sandpit and a trampoline, all things that seem pretty healthy for kids in terms of stimulating thought process and imaginative play...but I still managed to lose time in them and they became my own private world, to the point where my Mum had to confiscate the Lego when I was 16. So I don't think there's a problem with what activities kids indulge in, but rather the degree to which they do, and obviously the parents have to step in where there's no self-control and the child just isn't progressing or maturing.

I have to say this one other thing about video games...I never really had much to do with them until last year when I was living with someone who had an Xbox and I got seriously hooked on Need For Speed 2 - Underground. I mean until 5 in the morning hooked. As with anything I was utterly crap at it to start with...what with my poor co-ordination, reflexes, spatial perception, confidence and all...but aside from all that improving along with problem solving skills, I also developed a level of competitiveness and aggression that I don't normally have. That sounds like a bad thing but believe you me, my lack of it is a huge problem, one that probably has a lot to do with spending too much time in imaginative play where there's no objective concept of competition or competence.

So I'm not entirely recommending video games as a developmental tool for AS kids but I just think, all things in moderation. Again it's up to the parents to exercise restraint.