Friends
the question to me, though, is not whether or not it's impossible, but is it worth it, overall? Is the whole social status picture really the way it's depicted to us in such a positive light, or could we be using our talents and skills for something better that would be more fulfilling for our lives?
That's the thing.
the question to me, though, is not whether or not it's impossible, but is it worth it, overall? Is the whole social status picture really the way it's depicted to us in such a positive light, or could we be using our talents and skills for something better that would be more fulfilling for our lives?
That's the thing.
It's a great question.
In my experience so far on this planet, it's not worth it overall. It's a great deal of time, effort, energy and money tied up in a person who you then never see again for the rest of your life. Then start over with another one.
So far it seems like a huge waste of resources and no return.
_________________
Solitude is impracticable, and society fatal.
-- Emerson
In my experience so far on this planet, it's not worth it overall. It's a great deal of time, effort, energy and money tied up in a person who you then never see again for the rest of your life. Then start over with another one.
So far it seems like a huge waste of resources and no return.
my point exactly.
And don't forget: these people will never in their lives have the loyalty to you that you have to them, for the very reason that they seek social status; and that's something--being Autistic--you just cannot provide them.
In my experience so far on this planet, it's not worth it overall. It's a great deal of time, effort, energy and money tied up in a person who you then never see again for the rest of your life. Then start over with another one.
So far it seems like a huge waste of resources and no return.
How is life itself any different? Socialization ordinarily exists as an end in itself.
In my experience so far on this planet, it's not worth it overall. It's a great deal of time, effort, energy and money tied up in a person who you then never see again for the rest of your life. Then start over with another one.
So far it seems like a huge waste of resources and no return.
How is life itself any different? Socialization ordinarily exists as an end in itself.
how do you figure that? I love life.
In my experience so far on this planet, it's not worth it overall. It's a great deal of time, effort, energy and money tied up in a person who you then never see again for the rest of your life. Then start over with another one.
So far it seems like a huge waste of resources and no return.
How is life itself any different? Socialization ordinarily exists as an end in itself.
how do you figure that? I love life.
Well....
Life obviously requires a lot of time, effort, energy, etc, and, at least maybe for atheists, you don't get anything for it afterwards.
And some people, even occasionally aspies, can enjoy socialization.
That's how I figured. I hate my life, at the moment.
In my experience so far on this planet, it's not worth it overall. It's a great deal of time, effort, energy and money tied up in a person who you then never see again for the rest of your life. Then start over with another one.
So far it seems like a huge waste of resources and no return.
How is life itself any different? Socialization ordinarily exists as an end in itself.
how do you figure that? I love life.
Well....
Life obviously requires a lot of time, effort, energy, etc, and, at least maybe for atheists, you don't get anything for it afterwards.
And some people, even occasionally aspies, can enjoy socialization.
That's how I figured. I hate my life, at the moment.
Yes, but does life often intentionally stab you in the back and lie to you cause it's more concerned about status than how loyal you are to it? No.
The difference is this: anyone can succeed at life if they're willing to put the time and energy forward.
Socializing is an entirely different beast though, and it's usually ten thousand times harder for us; and even once we got it down pat, based on all the lies, backstabbings, and "backroom politics", how worth it is it, really?
I have to disagree...I do not think you have to lie to be friends with NTs. I had a large group of friends in high school, other girls I was very close to, including my "sister" and the woman who was my best friend for many years. Like most of you, I have trouble with the whole social code thing and have that "Aspie honesty" going, but these girls were my true friends, and while definitely weird, all NT as far as I know.
Today I hang with a large group of NTs. While I don't share the closeness with all of them I felt with my high school friends, we like each other and enjoy one another's company. As with any large group, there are people I get along with less well (for example, I avoid the guy who constantly plays with my navel jewelry, has expressed a desire to fondle my breasts, and slaps my butt when he gets the chance) and I'm sure there are people who avoid me as well. (I know my social failings; learning to repair the ones I can, but I'll never be able to read body language or follow/use nuanced speech; plus I tend to blurt things out, such as "You're a Republican? But...but why?") I don't force my presence on anyone, but I don't need to. These people are my friends. They greet me happily, are genuinely glad to see me, and a few even hug me (they all know I'm not big on the touching thing, but some have asked if they can hug me and I've said yes).
Do I talk too much? I do. Do I talk about things not of general interest? Yes. I'm sure I annoy people sometimes, and maybe behind my back they're saying nasty things about me...but I doubt it. I am pretty sure that if they had a complaint, they'd tell me. (I also think they make allowances for my AS, lol!) However, I have a wonderful time with these people just being myself. After reading the posts to this point, I realize I have really, really lucked out in my friends. Only problem there is, next time we're all together I'm likely to make a fool out of myself by saying something about it!
Before we assume that NTs are backstabbing liars, we should consider why they appear that way.
First of all, they are nowhere near as conscious of what they say. They probably spend 1/8 as much time thinking about what to say, because they can just go with a gut reaction. They can have relationships without thinking about it, and assume that every human on this planet is exactly the same, in that respect. So from their perspective, a few nasty comments, a forgotten relationship, etc would actually have very little effect. They might not even notice when they hurt us. We're a little bit like hemophiliacs, but much less understandable.
This thought process is quite similar to some CBT i did a couple hours ago: I initially think, "My father hates me because he criticises everything I do" then I ask, "why does he criticise me?" "He wants me to become what he considers a good person" So really, My father doesnt hate me, but rather the opposite, but he cannot understand how to interact with me effectively.
In order for relationships to work, there has to be understanding, so we need to try to understand NTs in a rational way, likely to involve stuff like CBT. Sure, it would be great if every NT we knew would spend hours figuring us out, but they'd rather make 5 new friends in that time.
First of all, they are nowhere near as conscious of what they say. They probably spend 1/8 as much time thinking about what to say, because they can just go with a gut reaction. They can have relationships without thinking about it, and assume that every human on this planet is exactly the same, in that respect. So from their perspective, a few nasty comments, a forgotten relationship, etc would actually have very little effect. They might not even notice when they hurt us. We're a little bit like hemophiliacs, but much less understandable.
This thought process is quite similar to some CBT i did a couple hours ago: I initially think, "My father hates me because he criticises everything I do" then I ask, "why does he criticise me?" "He wants me to become what he considers a good person" So really, My father doesnt hate me, but rather the opposite, but he cannot understand how to interact with me effectively.
In order for relationships to work, there has to be understanding, so we need to try to understand NTs in a rational way, likely to involve stuff like CBT. Sure, it would be great if every NT we knew would spend hours figuring us out, but they'd rather make 5 new friends in that time.
your last point is worth noting, as we're also probably the friends who'd also be more loyal to them; so technically, you're implying they prefer quantity over quality.
Eh, whatever works for them....
passionatebach
Velociraptor
Joined: 8 Nov 2009
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 447
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
I met a person on a message board, we shared an interest. We both came there daily and tended to agree on most things discussed and we joined up in helping others several times and it just became a friendly association. That led into private email where we shared details about our lives and talked freely. We started this ongoing email conversation, talking almost daily.
Birthdays and holidays we each sent small gifts through the mail - so this online friendship had moved to real life, exchanging addresses and that. This went on for a couple of years. Her husband needed help creating a website (for someone else) and paid me to work with him on that project for a few weeks. I did it, got paid, everyone was very happy.
I think it's important to say that even though this was being maintained for quite some time - and with success - it was very one note. The discussions were mostly her issues, her problems, her life, with me reacting and offering positive words or support. I noticed this but that's normal for any relationship I can have with others and I figured it was the price I had to pay in order to keep this going.
I need to note also that she was working for a big corporation all through this time, so she was on the clock for most of our email conversations. That is a big thing - people who only chat with you while being paid to be at work are not real friends. Most of my "friends" fell into that category, but as soon as they're on their own time, they stop talking.
During our "friendship" I got laid off and was at home, on my own time, still talking away with her whenever she needed to talk.
Then she got laid off, and she joined her husband's business working out of their home. At that time she told me she had no time, was too busy, and would get back to me soon.
I was paying for a service that provides updates each day through email, and she was very interested in it so instead of her paying for it too I had been forwarding her mine every day. It wasn't automated, I had to manually do the forward from my email every day. I continued to do this for her for weeks, then months. I checked in by sending her several emails that went unanswered over the next month, and finally she wrote back asking me to please hold off writing, not to contact her until she got back to me. She was very nice about it but said she was "so busy" and to not write again until she wrote to me. I agreed. So with that rule in place now I am totally bound.
I continued to send the forwarded free email every single day .... for a year. When I got the renewal bill for the service I realized it had been an entire year. And I never once heard from her in all that time. The holidays went by, not one single word.
We didn't actually 'break up' (it always seems like a break up but with girlfriend relationships I guess it's not politically correct to call it that) and there was no fight or any issue, just that she put me on Hold and never came back.
Since I was forwarding the other emails though, I know for sure that my name, my email address, was visible in her inbox every single day. So it's not likely that she just totally forgot about me.
At that one year mark I stopped forwarding the emails. More than a YEAR LATER she wrote to me all chatty and saying HI we have to catch up! how are you! how are things going! chat chat chat. I was horrified. I had actually cried over the loss of this friendship, as shallow and silly as it was and as ridiculous as that sounds, I sort of mourned the loss of it all and had to make changes within myself to realize she was not in my life anymore. Then she pops up like nothing happened.
I wrote back and told her I was shocked by this behavior, we were such regular friends, and then she put me on hold like a phone and out of respect for her and her new rule I did as she asked. I reminded her of the whole year that I manually forwarded her that email every single day..... with no reply. She wrote back saying she assumed the forwarded thing was automated because "no one on earth would have done that" (ha)
and she was sorry but she had "just been busy". How busy can you be and for more than a whole year???
I told her I was sure that I was going to be very busy from now on indefinitely and to have a good life and good luck to you and all those nice things but let's not have any contact. She said she was "so hurt" and couldn't believe that I wanted to stop being her friend and "after all we've been through" and she really "needed someone" (THERE is the truth - something must have happened in her life and she needed the free therapy and support that I had given her)
She tried hard to make me feel guilty or like I was a bad person for turning my back on my friend but what I saw was there was no friendship at all anyway. And I had already mourned her and was fully used to her not being a part of my life so it was already over.
IF I had chosen to lie to her and then trash her to someone else later to vent all of my hurt feelings, we would still be "friends" today. What a mess - just the thought of her being in my life now makes me feel tired. But that's the step I would have had to take there in order to keep my "friend".
What do you think?
This is pretty typical NT behavior. Humans are creatures of habit. Unless you see that person on a regular basis., most of the time they will not go out of their way to socialize with you.
Case in point, I have a friend that is just like the above mentioned. I am lucky if I hear from him every 2-3 years. He was close to me when I was growing up, but we went our seperate ways and have seperate lives in different states. I had a big fit about this years ago, but now understand that many relationships are this way.
I find it just impossible to deal with the on/off thing. If I write several times and get no response at all, I think that's it.
Otherwise you're just hanging around waiting to be used by this person and they control the entire relationship, all of the time. That is so unfair and I can't deal with never knowing if it's on or off.
I guess that's the whole problem with all of them - never knowing if on a whim it's on or off. Half the time I don't know what happened, just that another one is over with.
_________________
Solitude is impracticable, and society fatal.
-- Emerson
I always thought I was of strong moral fiber as well
I grew up in the deep South, in a family interlaced with borderline personality disorder. Can you imagine? I don't play the twofaced game either. People know where they stand with me. If I don't like someone I will not speak to them or be around them. I have been labeled a b***h at work before because I would not be friendly to a couple of women I didn't like (who really WERE b*****s). Everyone else would talk trash about them, but then be friendly to them. WTF.
I have friends now who I don't think are like that, or at least I haven't been in the position to notice it. I've learned to handle friendships a little differently and each of my friendships revolves around a common issue. Time will tell if this is a good tactic or not. I have been able to maintain these friendships for about a year now.
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