What would you rather have?

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I couldn't cope with Dyslexia, since literature is a huge part of my life.
I can't really imagine not having AS, since I have had it my whole life.

I have both Aspergers & Dyslexia. If I could pick one to have; I would pick AS because AS is a major part of my personality & I don't really see AS as a problem per-se like some people do; I see it as being very different from the so-called norm. I would love to lose the Dyslexia sense it's not an integral part of my personality & it makes some things very difficult. People who only have AS are typically good at academic stuff but the Dyslexia cancels that out for me. Aspeis also tend to be good at logic stuff but Dyslexia causes me to get things confused. I cant really think of any positive traits about Dyslexia rite now. I went to a school for Dyslexia from middle of 6th true 8th & my classmates did not seem to share any special skills except for being class-clowns

Pretty much

Honestly, I have both verbal difficulties along with social troubles therefore, I'd say in some ways I have both without actually saying I have Dyslexia for, my reading abilites are not hampered as often seen in such a condition..

Kiley wrote

There are so many frustrating aspects to all this I don't know where
to begin. I honestly must say I think my own situation is one of the
most exasperating things a human being could deal with. For one
thing, the human brain is likely the most complex entity in the known
universe. There's alot that even the greatest experts don't know about
it. The problems I have with my own brain are seemingly very unusual
as well and i'm guessing the common neuropsychological tests have
told me all that they can tell me about it. If neuroimaging or some other
diagnostic tools (and I don't think there's any others available to me
aside from neuroimaging) can yield no further insight, then i'm stuck
with a horrific and seriously disabling mystery I may never solve.


Couple all this with my lack of financial resources which obviously
prevents me from seeing "the greatest experts" and you've got a
Murphy's law situation from hell. There's really not much more I
can say or do about it at the moment. It's all a waiting game and
just hope the neuropsychologist i'm seeing on the 17th will
recommend an MRI in his report back to OVR. That's only the
first hurdle though. His recommendation will do me no good at
all if OVR is unwilling to cover the costs of an MRI.






Thank you....i'm not impressed with my own writing skills and I actually
hate writing. I'm not a fast typist for one thing and my computer skills
are limited at best. It takes me awhile to organize my thoughts and I try
my best to be both comprehensive and succinct, but it never works out
that way for the most part. That again is largely due to the complexity
and perplexing incongruity of my particular situation. There's so much
I can say which would be relevant. But I only have the time to say a limited
number of things, so i'm also frustrated by the fact that some very
important things are always left unsaid.

When I return to college, i'm not going to avoid math entirely,
but I probably won't need to take anything beyond college algebra.
While I can't be certain if i'll even succeed at passing intro algebra
since I took it twice before and failed to pass it, i'm going to give it
my best shot. I'll get all the accomodations, tutoring, etc....that are
available to me if that's what it takes. This is something I failed to do
the last time around. I thought I could handle it on my own and when
I didn't....I just gave up and opted for course substitutions because I felt
i'd never be able to deal with higher math.

I do want to focus on things i'm better at as well. But I feel I
need the challenge that math would offer me and I know i'll
never be happy with myself unless I can overcome that challenge.
Again....i'm certainly not expecting to be mathematical genius, that's
just totally unrealistic and very few people are in any case....even many
of the world's brightest people. I just want to be able to get decent
grades in the math classes most people are able to handle. Calculus i'm
not worried about. I know people with IQ's in the 140's who literally
changed their majors because they couldn't even grasp trig, let alone
calculus (<which is probably actually easier for some less-visual thinkers
than trig would be.)

Part of my problem too is that I was never even Dx-ed with
ANY LD until I was 23 years old. I was the ONLY person who
believed there was anything wrong with my brain at all until
then. My parents just thought I was lazy, unmotivated, moody,
obstinate....the usual. To some extent....I was self-Dx-ed at 14 and
I KNEW there was SOMETHING wrong with my brain at seven. But
as much as I begged and pleaded with my parents (and everyone
else among family, educators, etc...) to take my concerns seriously,
they were all summarily dismissed.

I had my first IQ test when I was in ninth grade though I don't
remember why I had to take one. I don't remember much about
it at all in fact, but i'm assuming it was either a WISC or a Stanford-
Binet. All I remember is that my guidance counselor told me I scored
120, which is the lowest score within the "superior" range.


Nothing was said about any significant discrepancies between VIQ or
PIQ or anything about strengths and weaknesses. But that was normal
for the time (1983) as big discrepancies between VIQ/PIQ (at least when
they were in favor of VIQ) weren't seen as a big problem back then in
eyes of most psychologists. NVLD was all-but unknown in 1983 and only
language-based learning disabilities were on the radar screeen.


When I was finally told I exhibited the general features of NVLD
at 23, (after a full neuropsych evaluation...the first one I ever had)
the psychologists told me little about it. They were under contract
with OVR, so all they told me is what I should consider in terms of
further educational/vocational pursuits. Not long after...I moved to
Florida to live with my mother and I started college. I somehow didn't
believe (or just didn't want to believe) my problems were as serious as
I now believe them to be. But obviously, they didn't just magically
disappear when I started college and when I started struggling, I
went to the Uni of Miami for more neuropsychological testing.

It was there that I finally learned about NVLD and how serious it
can be. One of the psychologists I saw there was the director of
CARD center (Center for autism and related disorders) at UM. He
was also the head of the psychological services center at UM and
as you would expect, he knew quite a bit about NVLD. He gave me
a copy of Dr. Byron Rourke's "Nonverbal Learning Disabilities...the
Syndrome and the Model".

The rest is really history and there's no need to say much
more about it here and now.

All I KNOW is that there are only three possibilites and i'll mention them in no particular order of importance:

-I have *somehow* unintentionally/unconsciously exaggerated my learning/memory problems and done so to such an extent that would seem to render this possibility impossible.

-My own *case* of NVLD is one of the "worst-case scenarios" and if so, then not all "worst-case scenarios" of NVLD are determined by IQ tests OR the standard neuropsychological evaluations.

-I have other neurological deficits which are both unrelated to the NVLD syndrome and probably far more debilitating than NVLD usually is.




I thank you very much for kind and encouraging words though. I'm sure i'll be posting quite a bit more about all this after my appt. with the neuropsych on the 17th. The actual results of my neuropsychological evaluation won't be available for sometime after that i'm sure, but the results aren't even the important part. After all....i'm pretty sure the results won't be much different than those of all the other neuropsych evals/IQ tests i've had. What he has to SAY after I tell him everything I need to tell him (and share alot of info, literature, etc...i've discovered which may be very relevant to my own particular circumstances) is far more important.

Futhermore...if he does recommend an MRI, that may be far
more valuable to me than all the neuropsych evals i've ever had
combined.

Well....I can't be sure about any of this and apparently, even people
who know alot more about neuropsychology, neuroimaging, etc....
than I do aren't sure either. So again... it's all just a waiting game for me
right now.

Anyway...I do have to cut this very long post short. My time on
the computer is rather limited and I still need to reply to
DandelionFirework's post. My mother gets a bit testy when
I spend all day on the computer.

As embarassing as this is for a 40 y/o person to admit, it is my
reality. It's not that I hate my family, but I have no choice but
to abide by their rules. I do have one other choice actually, but
homelessness seems like an even more undesirable option to
me.

So welcome to the wonderful world of neurological/neuropsychological
disorders. The next time somebody tries to tell me they're always just a
happy difference and that I should just accept who and what I am....i'm
reaching for my revolver

I happen to believe some things in life are simply UNACCEPTABLE and
INTOLERABLE anyway you slice them.

I feel it's a bit presumptuous for anyone to tell me I should be able
to accept my problems and be happy in spite of them simply because
many other people can accept and live happily with similar, or even
worse, problems.

I am not "many other people"....I am me. For whatever reason/s.....i'm
not ABLE to accept my own problems and be happy in spite of them.
Whatever that makes me....it makes me.

I will do anything within my power to improve my cognition and my
life in general until my dying day. What else SHOULD I do? Resign myself
to the kind of life i've lived for the past 40 years and just "smell the roses"
or something?

Not good enough....never has been....never will be.

I'm quite happy with my AS. It's the rest of the world that seems to find it problematic.

DandelionFireworks wrote:

Ha!! !....i've read many of your posts so far DandelionFireworks and i'd say
you know far more about NVLD/AS/ASD's and neurology/neuropsychology
in general than alot of PhD psychologists i've encountered. Nonetheless, even
the merest tyro would likely be able to tell i'm suffering from depression. It
is unipolar and major depression in my case. I have suffered from depression
on and off for most of my life....certainly all of my adult life and adolescence.

Depression in itself is hardly uncommon for those with NVLD ofcourse. I am
currently seeing a psychologist and psychiatrist. I just started Celexa and i'm
only on 20mg right now. I have another appt. with the psychiatrist on Weds
and i'm sure he'll want to increase the dose. I can't honestly say I have much
hope in Celexa. I've been on countless psych meds over the years and not one
of them has done anything whatsoever for me. I haven't even gotten any side
effects from any of them, so it's like I might as well be taking Flintstone
vitamins.

I would like to take a Cytochrome p450 test, but the clinic that this
psychiatrist works at (one of our local poor people's clinics) doesn't
offer them and that was a foregone conclusion to me in any case. My
health insurance doesn't cover psychiatric care and since my family
pays for my insurance, I have no say-so in the kind of coverage I have.
I would also consider deep brain stimulation since my depression certainly
appears treatment-resistant. Some studies have shown that DBS to the white
matter adjacent to Brodmann area25 is successful in some patients. For one
thing, the evidence to support the efficacy of this procedure is insufficient
and may only be effective for a handful of people with T-R depression. For
another....it is once again beyond my financial means. The same holds true
for electroconvulsive therapy or any other alternative non-pharmacological
treatments for depression.

While there can be little doubt that my depression is neurochemically/
clinically-related, it's also circumstantial. It's impossible for me to imagine
anyone in my situation, who has had my life experiences, who wouldn't be
depressed. In fact....i'm sure alot of people with similar circumstances
would've committed suicide by now. My own self-preservation instinct
is intact however and i'm sure that has something to do with my particular
neurobiology as well. I guess my 5HT receptors or whatever just aren't
dysfunctional in the same manner that they likely are in suicidal individuals.

I do feel depression is a big part of my problem...it certainly doesn't
lessen the intensity of my primary learning/memory problems, that
much is clear. In fact.....considering i've spent much of my life in a state
of depression, perhaps depression has magnified my learning, or at least,
my memory, problems to some significant degree. Some studies have shown
reduced hippocampal volumes in individuals who've suffered from long-
term depression. I don't think it's CAUSED any of my cognitive problems,
but I can't entirely rule out some substantial reduction in my cognitive
functioning due to chronic depression.




You're right....such arguments are meaningless to me since, no pun
intended, I feel light years removed from someone like Einstein. I do
think it's critical to get the depression out of the way first, but I must
face reality, that may never happen. It may not happen as soon as I need
it too at least. That is...i'd like to see a goodly improvement in my mood
before I go back to college in January. No improvement will hardly motivate
me to crawl out of bed in the morning, let alone attend classes, study, write
papers, etc.....

Truth be told....I don't know how i'm going to cope with it. I may just
have surrender to the depression and realize i'll never be free of it, at
least entirely, and try to achieve my goals and be happy in spite of it.
I know that doesn't make any sense really, but there doesn't
seem to be any other recourse at this point. I have emerged from
depression before, but doing so again would depend on a sense of
HOPE. Right now.....I have very little hope....but not NO hope. Maybe
things will gradually change once I get back into school providing i'm
doing well in my classes. All this remains to be seen....I just don't what else
to say or do about my depression at this point.

I have heard of Debbie Green and her book, "Growing up with NLD".
I haven't read the book, but i'm pretty familiar with her life story. She
had it pretty rough, but i've heard far worse NLD stories and as much
as I hate to say it, my own story is one of them. I go way back on Judy
Lewis' NLDline. I have spoken to Judy personally on several occasions
in fact. I was posting on the bulletin boards there (when they were still
up) not long after the inception of NLDline (about 13 years ago I think.)
My own IQ scores were above average on three out of the six IQ tests
i've taken (all professionally-administered.) In fact...they were in the
superior (120) on the first IQ test I had in junior high school and in
the very superior range (143) on the most recent test I had three years
ago. My other three IQ tests yielded high average scores on two
(112 on both) and low average (94) on the remaining one. I scored
in the above average (116) on one of the three which were above
average or better. Thus....my scores are all over the place, but the
discrepancy between VIQ and PIQ (in favor of VIQ ofcourse) has
always been present on all of them irrespective of the full scale
score.

There was a 44 point discrepancy on the last IQ test I had with verbal at 155
and performance at 111. But discrepancies between VIQ/PIQ alone
does not mean NVLD. The subtest patterns and everything else on my
neuropsych evals/IQ tests leaves little doubt that I fit the general
characteristics of *classic* NVLD.





I fully concur with you here although I can't be sure how personally
applicable all this is to me. The NLD community is rather toxic, but i'd
say that has more to do with the mental health professionals and educators
rather than those who suffer from NVLD themselves. Rourke was one of the
seminal researchers insofar as the NLD syndrome and model is concerned and
he has generally painted the disorder in a very negative light. He is has always
focused on the worse-case scenarios although I believe he's done less of that
recently. But his "NonVerbal Learning Disabilities....the Syndrome and the
Model"....is filled with more doom and gloom than the average Scandanavian
black metal CD. Still.....I think he speaks honestly about the potentially
devastating consequences of the disorder. There is a need for that even if
the consequences are only truly devastating for a tiny minority of NLD sufferers.

I can't blame any of the psychologists who've assessed me for lowering my
self-esteem. In fact..they have told me i'm far more capable than my own self-
observations and experiences have. Provided my NLD isn't as serious as I
believe it may be or that I don't have some *occult* neurological disorders
which are both unrelated to, and far more debilitating than, NLD, then I really
don't know why I believe i'm as impaired and mentally disabled as I do. I have
some theories about all this too.... but no conclusions.

Some of my early life experiences form part of some of these
theories. I will never forget the first time I realized something
was amiss with my brain. I was seven years and in the gym at my
elementary school. The gym teachers were showing us all how to
LACE, not tie, our sneakers. I was the only one who just couldn't seem
to figure out how do it no matter how hard I tried...save one other person
that is. The other person was this girl who was obviously (judging from both
her facial features and behavior) mentally ret*d. I noticed that she was
the only other kid who couldn't figure out how to lace their sneakers.

So....i'm sure you can imagine what I started believing about myself from
that moment forward. And it was all downhill from there with one failure
after another. Still....I was never placed in any special ed classes in K-12 and
I never repeated a grade or had to attend summer school. That's not to say
I was in any difficult classes though. In fact....I never even took intro algebra
until my freshman year in college. K-12 was unspeakable for me both in terms
of the bullying I endured and my lackluster (at best) academic performance.

I hated K-12 so much I don't even recall taking a book home and studying
for more than a few hours during all my 12 years. In any case, I can't share
my entire life story here, so enough about all that.

Irrespective of any genuine neurological basis for my own level of functioning, there are some other NVLD "horror stories" out there which
don't necessarily involve individuals with NVLD whose IQ scores are in the borderline or mentally ret*d range. Often, the NLD-ers with very low
IQ scores also have a genetically-based disorders like William's or Fragile
X.


Still....I get what you're saying about all of the unfounded and
damaging negativity that's associated with NVLD. I just don't
know if that negativity isn't applicable in my particular case. The
are obviously plenty of NLD-ers who are capable of infinitely more
than the "professional" literature has often implied. I just have no way
of knowing if i'm one of them at this point. After 40 years, it's a bit
ridiculous that I don't know....but that's the reality of my situation
nonetheless. I'm as in-the-dark now as when I first started to realize that
there was something wrong with my brain.


Just in case you haven't read any of this before, there's a few things
i'd like to share with you which may be relevant to my own circumstances.
Also i'd like to include a couple of NVLD cases with outcomes which are
similar, though not identical, to my own. I apologize if you have seen any/all
of it and i'm sure you'll gloss over it if you have.





This is something from Rourke:





"The nature of the deficits in children with NLD is hypothesized to be radically dependent upon the severity of white-matter involvement and the age at which the damage was sustained.Thus, for example, severe or widespread white-matter disturbance occurring very early in life would be expected to eventuate in deficiencies in virtually all skills and abilities. However, milder degrees and extents of dysfunction, such as may occur in later life, would be expected to eventuate in a milder impact on a child's neuropsychological abilities. In the case of linguistic skills, for example, once these functions have been reasonably well developed (e.g., by 5 years of age) they tend to be more impervious to white-matter disturbance. Another severity dimension of relevance in the psycholinguistic realm is the degree to which the verbal task is novel" (Rourke, 1989).


This is from Rourke's "Nonverbal Learning Disabilities...the Syndrome and
the Model". It is a case illustration and I was blown away the first time I read
it because this person's life story sounded so similar to my own:




"Upon completion of secondary school, a woman who I call H.S. initially worked as a salesperson in several department stores. Invariably, she was let go in each instance because, among other things, she made errors when using the cash register. Subsequently, she attempted a job as a keypunch operator but was dismissed from this position as well because she was slow in carrying out her responsibilities and prone to making many mistakes. Following this, she attempted several waitressing jobs. As would be expected, she found that she could not cope with the demands of such work, because she often got orders mixed up and her motor coordination problems made it difficult for her to carry trays, particularly during busy times when speed was demanded.

Discouraged, depressed, and by now criticized by her high-achieving upper-class relatives, H.S. sought help from a psychologist. On the basis of a vocational assessement the psychologist advised her that her interests were clearly in the "helping" professions. Following the advice of the psychologist, she subsequently managed to gain acceptance into a social work program at a university. Despite extreme difficulty, particularly in the third and fourth years when the academic and pratical (field placement) demands became quite complex, she managed to complete the program. This was accomplished, however, only with considerable help from others in organizing term papers, in writing reports and in other aspects of the academic program. She also received much in the way of general support from a sympathetic guidance counselor. During this 4-year period, H.S. experienced bouts of severe anxiety and depression; however, it was not until after graduation and subsequent futile job searches that her suicide attempts began. Over a period of 2 years, she "overdosed" three times and was admitted to a psychiatric unit on each occasion. Misunderstood by her relatives, who continued to demand that she should be working "like everyone else"; out of touch with her former school friends because they were all either busy working or raising children; rejected by potential employers; and incapable of comprehending the nature and implications of her deficits, she finally (and very reluctantly) assented to receiving a disability pension. With considerable supportive counseling, she has not attempted suicide for several years, but she is chronically depressed and frequently talks about being "no good" and of "no use to anyone".

H.S. continues to believe that she could function as a social worker if she could only obtain such a position. In all likelyhood, she could never do so. While she possesses a rudimentary knowledge of the field, she lacks the cognitive capacity to evaluate complex situations adequately, the cognitive/affective flexibility to deal with the changing needs of individual clients, and the emotional strengths to survive the stresses inherent even in a light caseload. She is highly vunerable to stress and, as an apparent result of this, has developed multiple physical symptoms over the years. As well, she endured a period of approximately 6 months during which she was clearly paranoid, with delusions mainly of persecution. She is currently functioning reasonably well, but it is clear that even the prospect of maintaining a small apartment, preparing meals for herself, and coping with the other requirements of daily living represent a considerable challenge for her.

Interestingly, H.S. has, on several occasions, expressed a desire to apply to graduate school to obtain an M.A. in social work, convinced that this would be the "ticket" to her success, Thus, her unrealistic self-evaluation is perpetuated in the belief that another degree will solve the problem. In fact, in the unlikely event that she could even complete a graduate program, the stage would be set for new and even more devastating setbacks".



This is a court document I found a few months ago:


http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/oah/dds ... 8.0084.pdf





Finally....and on a more positive note....here's a brief NLD story I saved
to favorites because I find it very inspiring:


dr. rick hughes says:

"nvld has been a thorn in my side for years, flunked geometry, any science class, but teachers passed me because I was a great basketball player, still get lost in traffic, can’t fix anythingt mechanical, can’t find my car in a parking lot, it’s a pain…was lucky I was taught mnemonic devices which got me a PhD in psychology…have dedicated my life to teaching others these memory stratgies…a professor who liked Jerry Lucas’ book, THE MEMORY BOOK, simplified the strategies for me, I have assessed many kids with nvld, they had better get in a job that’s verbal, many flunk out and are miserable, even though they are bright…I still cry when I read about people with nvld working in a low pay job that doesn’t fit…I would drive 100 miles or more to help someone who’s struggling"


I need to get a copy of this book he's referring to.



One thing that I must mention which may seperate me from many
others with NVLD is the problems I believe I have with long-term
memory. I am referring to semantic, procedural and episodic memory.
Such problems don't seem to be common among NLD-ers even though
Dr. Rick Hughes claims he has memory problems of his own. He wasn't
specific about what kind of memory problems he had/has, but for all I
know, they could be problems with short-term/working memory and/or
problems with non-verbal/visual memory. Both are fairly common for
those with NVLD/AS and though I don't seem to have serious problems
with the former, I certainly do with the latter and my neuropsych tests
confirm that much at least.


However....I have no *objective* confirmation of any long-term memory
problems when it comes to verbal memory. There is no memory test i've ever
taken which would suggest my semantic, episodic, or procedural memory is
impaired in anyway. Nonetheless...these memory deficits seem very, very real
to me and equally profound. There is also good reason to believe that the
standard neuropsychological tests of memory are quite limited in their ability
to ultimately determine one's LONG-TERM memory capacity. I always use the
following article from the Oxford Journal of Neurology to back up my claim
here:

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... /123/3/472




It probably wouldn't be useful for me to speculate about my
the origins of my memory problems right now. I've done so
in many of my other posts on WP. For one thing, i'm not even
CERTAIN I have any significant neurologically-based problems
with my long-term memory. For another, there is too many possible
causes for them if they do have a genuine neurological basis.
Depression itself may have something to do with them, like I said
before.

They also may or may not be related to the NVLD syndrome/white
matter involvement. Rourke has written some things about NVLD
and memory problems, but it's really a bit subjective IMO and I just
never hear of ANY other NLD-ers who specifically complain of any
serious long-term memory problems when it comes to verbal memory
at least.

I did obtain a very low score (impaired/<1st%) on the "Category Test" which is one of eight subtests on the Halstead-Reitan neuropsychological battery. The
Category Test is supposedly one of the most sensitive tests in terms of it's ability
to indicate brain damage. In particular....brain damage in the frontal lobe region.
But it cannot indicate much about the exact location of the brain damage in the
frontal lobe region nor the what the damage means in terms of an individual's
cognitive functioning.

The following excerpt about the category test is from a book entitled "Neuropsychological assessment of neuropsychiatric and
neuromedical disorders":

"The Category Test is probably the best measure in the Halstead-Reitan battery of abstraction, reasoning and logical analysis abilities which in turn are essential for organized planning. As noted earlier, subjects who perform especially poorly on the category test often complain of having "memory problems". In fact, the category test requires organized memory (as contrasted with the simple reproduction of stimulus material required of most short-term memory tests) and is probably a more meaningful indication of memory in practical, complex, everyday situations than most so-called memory tests especially considering that memory in a purposeful, behaviroal context necessarily depends on relating the various aspects of a situation to another"


Again....there is nothing specific here in regards to the KIND of memory
problems people who perform especially poorly on the category test often
complain of. It does seem to me that they're referring to short-term/working
memory though and that would make sense since the frontal cortex is
largely involved in working memory at least. So my results on the category
test might not even be relevant in terms of my own problems (or perceived
problems at least) with long-term memory. I don't really seem to have any
problems with short-term/working memory and my neuropsych evals do
confirm that. As far as I know, the conventional neuropsych memory tests
are pretty reliable when it comes to assessing short-term/working memory.
They may very well be far less reliable when it comes evaluating long-term
memory though. The long and short of this is.....I have a million theories
about these long-term memory problems I believe I have and no conclusions
or objective confirmations.






I was working in menial position up until a year ago. I was a salesperson
for a family friend in his small retail clothing business. He is somewhat
aware of my issues and mostly tolerant of them. But the bad economy has
had a pretty serious impact on his business and he could no longer afford
to pay anyone else to work for him...so I was laid-off. I could possibly
develope another skill (including writing) and do it on the side. But my
whole focus right now is geared towards finding out what's ultimately
wrong with me neurologically-speaking, then seeing if anything can be
done to improve my cognition and going back to college in January.

Even though this may sound like an excuse.....these issues are all-consuming to me and so is the depression. I can't imagine being able to gain
(not to mention maintain) any employment right no matter how menial and
low-stress it is. This depression is really crippling and it's made my social,
psychomotor and executive functioning significantly worse than they are
when i'm feeling less depressed or not depressed at all. I've held many jobs
in the past, though they were all unskilled, low-paying positions. Some I held
for two years or longer. I even had a full-time job as a waiter for two years and
I was going to college at the same time. The difference between then and now is that I wasn't feeling depressed AT ALL at the time. I was 26 years-old and I felt I had
my whole life ahead me. I was in college, making good grades (until I hit math) and
I felt that the sky was the limit insofar as my educational/career aspirations were
concerned. That illusion fell to pieces not long after I both dropped my math courses, opted for course substitions and learned about NVLD. After that, I fell into a deep depression and it took two years to emerge from it that time. I wasn't
able to work during those two years either.

So....idk....anyone can judge me harshly for this if they wish and maybe
their judgements are well-founded. All I can say is that I feel totally
incapable of finding and maintaing any kind of employment right now.
The depression is so bad that there's plenty of days that go by in which
I don't even eat. Sometimes I don't even get out of bed until 2-3 in the
afternoon and no matter what, i'm usually awake until 4-5 in the morning.

I would do anything to alleviate this bone-crushing sense of hopelessness,
and despair. The lack of energy and constant lethargy also drags
me down. I take the meds.....they do nothing. I go to weekly therapy and it's just
the same old rhetoric from both me and my therapist. I would really like to wait
until I go back to college before I look for employment anyway. I've just got too
much else to think about, resolve, do, etc.....right now and it's all pretty
overwhelming to me as it is. Depression doesn't make any less so either and I am
certain i'd epic fail at any job right now.




Aside from what i'd like to be doing in terms of anything related to
the degree I may eventually receive, there's alot of menial jobs I don't
really mind so long as depression isn't obliterating my level of overall
functioning. I actually didn't mind being a clothing salesperson, though
it's ofcourse not my life-long dream to be one. I don't mind working in
certain restaurants as a busperson, waiter, or dishwasher. Janitorial actually
isn't that bad either. I don't do well with cash registers or anything which
is really face-paced or that involves too much multi-tasking. I could never
handle being a short-order cook, for example. I tried that before and I failed
miserably at it. I also wouldn't want to do anything which calls for good
visual-spatial skills/mechanical reasoning because I think I could even succeed
at algebra and other types of higher math before i'd succeed at anything
mechanical/visual-spatial. I'm talking about jobs like construction, roofing,
landscaping, factory work, etc.....I've tried my hand at jobs like that before
and I was fired (thanks entirely to my mechanical/visual-spatial deficits)
faster from those jobs than any others i've ever had.

So there are SOME things I can do now, but they'd all
allow me to work in some unskilled position only. That's
OK by me so long as i'm forging ahead with my college
education and i'm not dealing with the degree of depression
that I am currently. For now....everything is on hold though
for reasons I mentioned. They may be bad reasons or excuses,
but I think I know myself well enough in this respect at least to know
when I can handle employment and when I just can't.





I am all-too familiar with this. If i'm not mistaken, I believe you're still in high school. Like I said, I never even took algebra at all until my first year in college. I did
take it twice and dropped it both times because there was no way I was going to pass considering my test grades and I didn't want F's on my transcripts. But....I really didn't seek out much in the way of tutoring, accomodations, or anything else and that's not a mistake i'll make again. I am cautiously optimistic about getting through algebra. Math courses like trig are another story and with my visual-spatial deficits, I don't know if I could ever hack math with a major non-verbal/spatial component.

Anyway....I really better cut this message here and now. I'm sorry if I sound so negative and self-defeating, but my own self-observations and life experiences are weighing more heavily on me now than they ever have in the past. I can't really even describe what's in my head every single day of my life for the past year.

For whatever reason/s...I wasn't even depressed at all up until about a year ago. I wasn't very depressed for past ten years and the circumstances of my life were really no different in any appreciable way. So that's another yet another mystery.

Whatever the case.....I thank you very much for your kind words and excellent
insights. I could really go on forever about all my issues, but obviously that's
impossible and it's difficult to imagine anyone who is willing to read everything
i've said already. I'm just in a bad way right now....the absolute worst i've ever
been in my life even considering equivalent circumstances. Alot of things you
guys said in your posts made me feel better last night and give me some hope.
But for many reasons, (including familial conflicts) things aren't looking quite
as positive today/tonight. Still...i'm not giving up on myself and i've got alot of
work and struggles ahead. I think you hit it on the nose when you said the
depression is the first thing I need to deal with. Considering all i've said about
the ineffectiveness of meds and the unavailability (for me) of alternative
treatments, I really don't even know where to begin with that though.

Dyslexia = the inability to deal with words properly
Asperger's = the inability to waste your life socialising for no real purpose other than a temporary sense of empty enjoyment, in exchange for a higher ability to think logically, be creative, and become an expert in your field of interest, with the possibility of making a career out of it

Hmm, which one do I want? Hard choice...

I'd say you flatter me, but I'm at least somewhat familiar with the general knowledge base of the mental health community.

If the pills aren't doing anything, why are you taking them?

Though seriously, how long have you been on them for? SSRIs never work before about a month, sometimes as much as two, though the side-effects generally show up sooner. (It just figures, doesn't it?)

But if they're not doing anything and you know they never do anything, maybe look into alternatives. Sounds like you've got the typical "fragmented care," with a psychologist for psychotherapy and a psychiatrist for meds. To be frank, it's a bad system.

(It really sounds like you've done your research, but I'll assume you haven't just in case.)

Psychotherapy has been shown to be as effective as medication in treating depression. (To be frank, the benefit derived from many current therapies is consistent with the placebo effect.) Most schools of psychotherapy are about equally effective overall, especially due to the tendency of competent shrinks to just do what works regardless of theory, but there are incompetent shrinks in any school, so if you've been sticking it out with the same one to no avail, it might help to switch. In your situation, I would favor cognitive-behavioral or humanistic therapy, but honestly it's personal preference as much as anything.

Maybe you should be taking Flinstone vitamins. It can't hurt, right? (I'm not a dietician any more than I'm a shrink, but from my single semester of college nutra-sci, I can tell you right now that depression could be caused by vitamin deficiency. If you're a vegetarian, you might want to look into supplementing B vitamins. If you don't like sunlight-- it's a fair bet that you don't, from what little I know of you-- or if you rarely wear revealing clothes, you might want to look into a vitamin D supplement.)

From your own reports, it does sound like there's a definite environmental cause for your depression, though of course a depressed person may be a biased reporter. I would doubt that it's a purely physical illness, though of course it's physical; the brain is physical, and regardless of the cause, it shows changes. But those physical changes don't sound like the root cause of depression in someone with a history of assaults to self-esteem.

Also, I disagree with the conclusion in the given case history. It's one thing to be wary, another entirely to dismiss her belief in her own ability to work as low insight. Maybe she couldn't handle it, but it's worth a try. People may surprise you. That's exactly the problem I have with the NLD literature.

So your IQ has been tested all over the place. Can you remember how you were feeling when you took each test? If depression is exacerbating your problems, it might be that the lower scores were from tests taken during periods of depression. Is that the case?

Now that I think about it I almost feel ashamed it's taken me this long to think of this, but does your psychologist really believe you could be successful? If not, change shrinks now; you won't be getting any benefit from this one, period. And I mean... maybe it's because this is the internet, or because I'm a little dense, but I only just realized that as a learning-disabled forty-year old man who's only ever worked briefly at menial jobs, you're probably giving off a vibe that doesn't really inspire great confidence in your abilities. I don't usually think about things like that, but now that I consider you in that light, I wouldn't be surprised if your current shrink doesn't respect you.

What's your problem with math? Because mine lies in trying to manipulate numbers. As long as the stuff I'm learning is so theoretical as to be almost worthless in everyday life (say, calculus), I'm not a lot worse than average at it, being able to grasp a principle after having it explained a few times. But when I try to apply it (surprise surprise), I can't, because plugging in actual numbers turns the whole thing to Greek. (Actual Greek letters, on the other hand... ) Knowing why it's a problem might help you fix it. In my case, I know I need to adjust for the extra time it'll take me to process the problem and to work out the difficult parts like 1 + 1, and for the extra time it'll take me between problems to get back to where I can start working.

That incident sounds really disheartening, and it's no wonder it upset you. I bet you can lace shoes now, though, right?

Also, you mention that you were laid off because your employer needed to downsize. Although it might not feel very important (you've lost your paycheck, after all), that's an important distinction. He didn't fire you because you were a bad salesman. Maybe you should look for similar jobs. You might not have much success, especially with the economy as it is, but at least you know you can do that job, and you yourself said you didn't mind the work.

I truly believe that even now, you have potential you haven't yet realized. I can see that you have serious impairments, and that your depression is making things worse. (Actually, having seen a similar case without the depression, I can say with some confidence that that's the biggie and without it, you're almost home free.) However, nothing you've said has given any indication that you're incapable of achieving more than you have so far.

DandelionFireworks

There are a couple reasons i'm taking them. Primarily because I have absolutely no other recourse at this time in terms of alleviating my depression. Until very recently, I wasn't taking any anti-depressants for the past seven years or so. The way I see it, just because nothing I was taking years ago (prozac, zoloft, etc....) had any effect on me doesn't mean I won't get any benefit from ANY anti-depressant now. I just started taking Celexa about a month ago and though i've seen no benefit thus far, I was only on 20mg. My psychiatrist just increased the dosage to 40mg yesterday. IOW....i'm willing to give it a shot. Regardless of my life circumstances and even though I feel I have everything to be depressed about, I think it's crucial to treat the clinical/neurochemical aspects of my depression.

While i'm not saying it will be absolutely impossible to change my life circumstances
(i.e.....succeed at college, work, etc...) in spite of my depression, it will be much more
difficult and any significant improvement in my emotional state would be welcome
indeed. Bottom line....no other treatment options beyond medication are availabe to
me right now and considering the stakes, I have to take what I can get and just hope
for the best.







As far as alternatives are concerned, i've already addressed that. The therapist I currently see isn't even a psychologist...yet. He's a psych grad student at one of the local universities. I see him once a week at the psychological services center at this university. As you probably know, psych services centers at universities usually, if not always, will work with patients on a sliding scale. Low/no income patients can get weekly therapy with grad students for as little as $8.00 per week (which is what I pay.) Certainly this situation is not ideal, but again, I really have no other recourse. OVR would likely cover the costs of weekly therapy with a degreed psychologist, but from my experience, the psychs OVR has under contract aren't too much better than the psych grad students at universities. In any case, that's not even an option for me now anyway. I recently reapplied for OVR services and although i'm sure services will be available to me eventually, the approval process takes quite a long time. Even after you're deemed eligible to receive OVR services, you will be put on a waiting list for services and how long you will have to wait depends entirely upon the determinations OVR makes in regards to your NEED for services. Considering I don't have any physical disabilities, i'm not homeless, starving, I have no dependents, etc....i'm pretty sure i'll be waiting quite a long time for any services from OVR.

Thankfully....I don't require too many services from them, but it would be nice to have access to better mental health services than I currently do. Also....OVR MIGHT be willing to cover the costs of a MRI for me (even before i'm found eligible for services since the results of an MRI could be taken into consideration during the approval process and any decisions which are made about one's need for services) IF this neuropsychologist OVR is sending me to recommends an MRI in his report back to them. My case worker already told me they might be willing to cover the costs of one so long as a qualified neuropsych/neurologist deems it necessary. Now I don't think he's going to recommend one no matter what I tell him, but we'll see what happens. My appointment with him is scheduled for this coming Thurs. Also....OVR might be able to cover part of my tuition and other educational expenses(they covered ALL my educational expenses, including books, parking stickers, etc....in the past) though my case worker gave me no promises about that. Due to budget cuts in recent years, OVR services aren't as generous as they used to be. Thankfully for me....that's no big deal as i'm certainly eligible for Pell grants and my family has already agreed to cover any of my educational costs pell grants, OVR, etc... won't cover. It's not as though i'm going to be attending an Ivy league uni here.....i'll just be going to one of the local public universities and/or community colleges.

I was referred to the clinic (where the psychiatrist I see works) by my grad student therapist. Again....this clinic/psychiatrist leaves very much to be desired, but I just don't have any better alternatives at this point. It goes without saying that you get both the justice and medical/mental health care you can afford in America. It's an unfortunate reality for millions of lower income/impoverished Americans, but there's not much I can do about it ofcourse unless and until I actually have a decent income or until I win the lottery that I don't even play.






I wouldn't dispute the efficacy of psychotherapy in terms of it's ability to treat depression, but again, it hasn't worked for me thus far. I am currently receiving cognitive-behavioral from the grad student at the psych services center. He's really helping me with some pratical things rather helping me get over my depression per se. For example, for the next couple months, we will be focusing on an acceptable and realistic game plan insofar as school is concerned. I am very indecisive and anxious when it comes to returning to school. I really don't know what to major in and I have numerous other questions and concerns about all of it which aren't worth mentioning here. So....irrespective of my depression...I really believe he can be of great assistance there at least. Again....I have to face the reality of my situation. I've got forty years of pain, failure, poverty, etc.....starring me in the face every waking second of my life. That said....I may NEVER be able to be entirely free of the emotions we commonly associate with depression. I have two choices....I can allow to depression to consume me, do nothing and have another X amount of years of failure, pain, etc....or I can TRY to move forward, succeed at college, find a decent job, live independently, etc....IN SPITE of my depression and general unhappiness. The latter choice sounds most in line with my rational self-interest and while I don't have much hope of ever achieving/experiences many of the things i've always wanted to achieve/experience, at least i'm not ENTIRELY devoid of hope.





Though i've considered it in the past (for mostly "ethical" reasons)....i'm not a vegetarian. I don't like sunlight, but I happen to live in a very sunny part of the country
(Florida) so I am exposed to enough of it whether I like it or not. Since it's usually rather hot and humid here, I rarely wear anything aside from shorts, T-shirts and sandals. I wouldn't define anything I wear as "revealing", but I certainly do not wear any solar protective clothing and most clothing offers very little protection from UV rays in any case. I drink plenty of skim milk too, so I don't think a vitamin D deficiency is an issue in my case.





I wouldn't define it as an environmental cause.....rather i'd say much of it is circumstantial and it always has been. The clincal/neurochemical/genetic predisposition causes of depression in my case are what they are. I'd say that even the circumstances of my life as a child would likely contribute to, if not CAUSE, SOME degree of depression in just about anyone. I'm referring to circumstances I dealt with long before I even suspected something was wrong with me neurologically speaking. Primarily the brutal bullying I received at school and the emotional (and at least threats of physical abuse/punishments) abuse I received from my parents (primarily my mother.) All of this also is ,ofcourse, common enough for those with NVLD/AS and the associated social deficits alone have much, if not everything, to do with the depression, anxiety, panic attacks, etc.....people with AS/NVLD often deal with. I'm not really saying anything you don't know here. All i'm trying to say is the circumstances of my life were never ideal and I always felt SOME degree of depression even if the circumstantial aspects of it were only due to my early interactions with other humans at school, home and elsewhere.





I disagree with it as well. But this is pretty much par for the course for Dr. Byron Rourke. Given her past history, surely there's every reason to be wary. But human beings can and have succeeded at any number of things after years, and even decades, of failure. I would say it is worth a try in her case and just about every case. Functioning levels change as well and there's alot of reason to believe that even cognition itself can be significantly improved upon. Now maybe it's not possible for a person with mild mental retardation to become the next Einstein (not that i'm saying the women in question is mentally ret*d) ofcourse. But there's every reason to believe that many aspects of cognition, including memory, attention/concentration, visual-spatial skills, motor skills, etc....can be improved upon. Even "nootropic" drugs show some promise in this area aside from any mnemonic techniques, exercises, specialized diets, etc....one can adopt in order to help improve cognitive functioning. To be fair...I do believe that Rourke himself has toned down his doom/gloom rhetoric a bit in recent years, but he certainly painted a very grim picture of NVLD in his "Nonverbal Learning Disabilities...the Syndrome and the Model" and much of his past literature on the subject.




Yes it has. I do remember how I was feeling during all of the tests save the first one I had at 14. I remember feeling extremely depressed while taking the test which yielded the lowest IQ scores (in FSIQ, VIQ and PIQ) i've ever received. I was feeling LESS (and even not depressed at all during a few of them) depressed during all the others i've had since though I must emphasize that there was NO circumstantial reason FOR feeling less depressed during the times I had all those tests. In fact....i'd say I had even MORE circumstantial reasons to be depressed when I took my other IQ tests. I was only 23 when I took the one that yielded my lowest scores. By contrast....I was 37 when I took the test that yielded my highest scores. IOW....even though I had experienced little but failure academically, vocationally, etc.....when I was 23....I still had "my whole life ahead of me". I had much less "life ahead of me" when I took my most recent IQ test at 37. So all I can say is that, for whatever reason having NOTHING to do with circumstances, age, etc....I was FEELING less depressed (or again,, not depressed at all) during all my IQ tests subsequent to the one I obtained my lowest scores on. I scored 120 on the very first one I had when I was 14. Since 9th grade was one of the worst years in K-12 in terms of the bullying I dealt with, I KNOW I was pretty depresssed then too.

Bottom line....I really can't say for certain whether depression played any role or not in terms of my performance on the various IQ tests i've had. I know it's likely that it did, but I just don't know for sure. Even if it did....it's hard to imagine depression alone accounting for the 49 point difference between my lowest FSIQ score (94) and my highest (again...the most recent IQ test I took) score (143.) My VIQ was 104 on the former and 155 on the latter.
PIQ was 82 on the former and 111 on the latter. While I don't have any idea what accounted for the increase in my PIQ score, I do believe my VIQ increased largely because I did most of the reading i've done in my life between 23-37. Not to mention the fact that I at least obtained an AA degree in liberal arts between 23-37. Several of the subtests on VIQ
(namely "Information" and "Vocabulary") are extremely, if not entirely, dependent upon one's level of "book-learning"-type education irrespective of whether we're talking about formal or self education. My highest scores on all the subtests on every IQ test i've had are always on the Information and Vocabulary subtests. I do well on the other VIQ subtests as well. Even the scores on my arithmetic subtests have been in the average-high average range. My only low-average to impaired subtest scores have always been on the block design and object assembly subtests on PIQ. The object assembly subtest is my absolute worst and i've even scored in the impaired range on that one. I don't think my scores on block design have ever fallen into the impaired range, but they have been in the borderline range and never higher than the low average range. I also once scored in the low average range on the Matrix Reasoning subtest on PIQ. But on another test....I scored in the superior range on Matrix Reasoning and in the average range on yet another.

So...umm...yeah....it's no understatement to say my IQ scores have been all over the place.






He claims he does. He doesn't deny the fact that I have a learning disability (as he's seen all my psych reports) but he SEEMS to believe my learning and self-observed
*subjective* memory problems are likely exacerbated (and in the case of my self-proclaimed memory problems specifically, maybe entirely imagined) by my emotional/psychological problems. I have mixed feelings about this, but no need to mention those here and now. Now to be clear, he does acknowledge the possibility
that I put forth as well. That is....he doesn't tell me it's IMPOSSIBLE that my learning/memory problems are as severe as I believe they may be. Keep in mind, he's only a psych grad student for one thing and his concentration is not in neuropsychology in any case. Therefore, his expertise in terms of all things related to neuropsychology/neurology is limited at best and he admits that. Again...i'm fully aware of the fact that this guy is hardly the ideal therapist for me, but still, he's my only option at this point.


If he doesn't respect me or have any confidence in my abilites, then he's certainly not being honest about that. Since i'm not a mind-reader....I really have no way of knowing. I wish to god I had some other options regardless of what he thinks of me, but at this time, I simply don't.





Out of all the questions you've asked so far, this is going to be the most difficult one for me to answer. To put it simply at first....I just don't comprehend much when we're talking about math beyond the pre-algebra level. I DID comprehend alot of the material covered on the first few tests in intro algebra, but I failed the tests miserably anyway. There was always some stupid mistake I would make on the exam questions even if I did all the similar practice problems in book correctly. My memory seems to be very poor even when it comes to fractions, decimals, etc.....For example....I can easily learn HOW to add/multiply/divide/subtract fractions, convert fractions into decimals, etc....but I always forget how to do it even a few weeks after learning how to do it. My memory is really like a sieve when it comes to all things mathematical beyond simple addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. I remember my multiplication tables perfectly....I can even do mental math better than alot of NT's i've met whose intelligence is probably average or better. I just can't remember very much about the rules of math more complex than the aforementioned simple addition, subtraction, etc....It's as though if I don't use it CONSTANTLY....I lose it. This is the way it's always been for me where math is concerned.

I'm also very bad at logic......I took a logic course in college and though I passed it by the skin of my teeth, (with a C) I was unable to comprehend very much of it. I am terrible at logic puzzles too. As bad as I am at algebra, logic, etc.....i'm probably even worse at geometry and any type of math which involves spatial/non-verbal concepts. I do think it's
possible I could get through math courses up to the college algebra level. But anything involving geometry or trig would present an enormous, if not totally insurmountable, struggle for me. Still....all the psychologists who've tested me have told me that based upon my IQ/neuropsych eval results...I should be able to handle math up to and maybe beyond, calculus I. They said it WOULD present a struggle for me, but they saw no reason why I couldn't ultimately handle it. So unless they were lying to me in order to make me feel better about myself and give me some false hopes....there just MIGHT be hope for me yet as far as math is concerned. I haven't even looked at any math *higher* than fractions, decimals, etc.....for about 13 years or so. I'm sure that even intro algebra will present a considerable struggle for me, but i'm bound and determined to conquer even if I require accomodations, tutoring, etc....from god himself. My father is probably as bad (if not worse) at algebraic-type math (and really...math in general) and he's as NT as they come. He's great with visual-spatial/mechanical tasks though (unlike his son) and he worked as a stationary engineer (with no college degree) in various hospitals for roughly forty years.

He made several attempts at intro algebra himself and wasn't able to understand any of it. He wanted to actually go back to college and get an engineering degree in order to be qualified for better-paying positions in his field. But because of his inability to grasp even basic algebra, his dreams of an engineering degree were dashed. My step-mother (who is fantastic at math) tried to tutor him for months....to no avail. I also have a friend I met in college who had to change his major because he couldn't pass Trig. This guy is an NT and has a tested IQ in the 140's and probably, an eidectic (or something close to it) memory as well. But like me....he's very weak in terms of visual-spatial/mechanical reasoning and I have little doubt that has alot to do with his failure to pass Trig. So whether we're talking about those with learning disabilites or not, i'm certainly not alone when it comes to my difficulties with math. I've heard plenty of Aspies (who, mythologically speaking ofcourse, are supposed to be so good at math and maybe disproportionately speaking....they are. But there's enough who are also quite poor at it too) in this very group complain of struggles with math which seem to render my own pale in comparison. So....while i'm not certain I can ultimately handle algebraic-type math or not.....I will never know until I try (again and this time, with much more effort than I put into it before) and at least I think I have a fighting chance.




It was and it's something i'll probably never forget. Again....it was the first indication I had that SOMETHING was wrong with my brain. Unfortunately...I associated that *something* with defacto mental retardation because at that time, ofcourse, neither myself nor even the *experts* knew NLD from BLT. And yes....I have no problems lacing my shoes these days, though don't ask me to put up drywall, fix your breaks, build a doghouse, etc....

I wouldn't even know where to begin with things like that. It's pretty embarassing too considering my father is so mechanically-inclined. I couldn't even build my own models (of WW-II tanks, planes, etc...) when I was a kid. My father had to assemble them for me. I sucked in industrial arts too though I was certainly better in electronics and metalshop than I was at woodshop. Obviously....poor mechanical/visual-spatial reasoning is pretty common for NLD-ers, so i'm not all that unusual in that respect either. Even many very "high-achieving" NLD-ers are very bad at most things, if not everything, involving visual-spatial/mechanical reasoning. A good example would be that PhD'd psychologist (Dr. Rick Hughes) I recently quoted. That aspect of NLD/my neurpsychological problems bothers me far less in comparison to other aspects of it. I really despise fixing/assembling anything and I always have. It just strikes me as very tedious and "dry" and I really have never taken any pleasure in attempting to build a table or something. I would much rather read, write/perform music, study philosophy, history, literature, science, religion/spirituality, psychology, sociology.

Irrespective of my abilites....my INTERESTS AND PASSIONS have always tended towards subjects traditionally associated with academia. I have little or no use for sports, the visual arts, dance, handicrafts, mechanical/constructional tasks, etc......





Yes....it is an important distinction and I was actually a very good salesperson in his estimation, my own and everyone else's. I hated the work with a passion insofar as I didn't find it interesting in the least. Nor do I like interacting with people, but I "faked it" and pulled it off well enough in that particular sales job. You have to understand that this was a VERY relaxed environment I was working in. There was no dress code and we mostly dealt with fishermen, divers and other "macho" outdoorsmen-types who are actually quite easy to please. IOW.....it wasn't like I was trying to hawk diamond rings to the Rothchilds or something. He mainly carried bargain-priced outdoor wear and since most of the mechandise was pretty self-explanatory even to very stupid people (though I did encounter several people who acted like they were looking at a particle accelerator instead of a pair of very uncomplicated nylon quick-dry shorts.) so there wasn't all that much "salesmanship" involved in any case. I was just good at convincing the customers to buy more than one item, but that's not really rocket science either. While I hated the job as it did not involve anything I was the least bit interested in, I didn't MIND it so much either. I wouldn't mind that kind of work at all if it was better-paying and if I still had the time/money to pursue other interests and hobbies....educational/academic and otherwise. Again....I think it's in my best interest to hold-off looking for ANY jobs until I know exactly what i'm going to be doing in terms of college in January. I want to be able to attend classes during the day and work at night (most likely part-time i'm sure) for one thing. Considering the depression i'm dealing with too....I don't want to just dive into everything all at once either. I feel a few baby steps are in order here and I think I ought acclimate myself to the rigors and environment involved in college first and then worry about finding a job. It's not as though i'm qualified for anything right now aside from unskilled and low-paying positions anyway. So I certainly don't feel like i'm missing out on something simply because i'm not working in some menial job paying $7.00 per hour. It's not a case of laziness....i've worked upwards of 70 hours a week for months on end before. I just don't want to bite off more than I can chew until I get the college dilemma squared away first.





Well....in all honesty....my own jury must remain out for now as far as all this is concerned. Can you tell me exactly what you mean in terms of the serious impairments you
claim I have? That is....do you NOW have any ideas as to what the nature and origin/s of these impairments are considering all that i've said? (or even...left UNSAID.) I'm certain the depression doesn't make any of my cognitive problems any better and there's much reason to believe it's made them substantially worse in fact. I'd say EVERYTHING is going to be at least much more difficult for me if i'm unable to at least significantly lessen the level of depression i'm dealing with. That may be the most difficult thing of all in fact. It's not like I can just force myself to be happy no matter how hard I try. In that sense....it might even be easier to improve upon whatever neurologically-based cognitive problems I have. But the depression i'm dealing with will fight me tooth and nail insofar as my motivation to do the necessary work REQUIRED to improve my cognitive functioning. Thus....i'm definitely between a rock and a hard place where the depression is concerned. It's unlikely to vanish on it's own no matter how bad I want it too and no matter how much all progress in my life depends upon it vanishing. And I simply can't afford better mental healthcare alternatives right now even if I was working full-time somewhere.

Futhermore.....i've had higher-quality mental healthcare in the past when I was depressed and it didn't seem any more efficacious than what i'm currently receiving. For one thing...meds are meds regardless of who is prescribing them. For another, i'd be somewhat reluctant to undergo procedures like electroshock therapy or deep brain stimulation. Such procedures are not magic bullets in terms of depression which has not responded to medication in the first place. Secondly...the thought of brain surgery is in order to implant the DBS device is rather frightening to me. Neither procedure is without it's potential side effects and complications either. So to be quite honest....the depression itself is the most serious and pressing dilemma at this point. It's somewhat akin to an alcoholic with mental problems. It's critical to get the person clean and sober first before their mental problems can be successfully addressed. All that said...if you have any other ideas in regards to how I can overcome (at least to some meaningful degree) the depression, i'd welcome them. I am honestly all out of ideas at this point especially considering my financial limitations for one thing. For another....even if a million dollars fell into my lap this very instant.... I just don't know if anything could dispel the inexpressible quality and quanity of negative thoughts and emotions I have.

Seconded, I know i wouldn't be alive without my ability to read, sorry humanity, the fiction you create is better than the concept of compatibility you myopically enforce on everyone around you. generalising i know but its one of those days)

Well, i'd rather stay how i am.... so, Asperger's. I have to say that having dyslexia over AS would mean my life would be much easier, though. I don't mean to belittle the struggles of people who have dyslexia, but AS is called a *pervasive* developmental disorder for a reason. It affects pretty much all aspects of one's life to some degree, whereas dyslexia just affects one part. I know one person who says he has dyslexia, along with possible adhd, and his abilities are about as NT as you can get... complete opposite of me in many ways.. socially gifted, functions great in most situations. That is only one person, i know, but my general impression is still that dyslexics generally function as normal people in society.

I didn't tell anyone, but I went through a bout of what I'm willing to call depression. It walked like a duck, quacked like a duck, but I never showed it to an ornithologist so I can't be sure. Anyway, that was in my early teens, only a few years ago. (Will it ever recur? *shrug* Probably; I'm very cynical even when normal, and I can be thin-skinned. But I doubt it'll ever be as bad.) I was certain that I not only had no abilities, but was a horrible person. There was more, but I don't really want to talk about that part. I was never suicidal and I didn't self-harm (unless you count hitting myself very, very hard all the time). I can't know for certain that the last couple of years of slowly building myself back up from "I'm not totally worthless" to "I maybe have some skills" to what seems like a rational self-assessment, going from having all the resolve of a feather to privately wondering if particularly stupid people might be wrong to speaking out for what I believe even if only on the internet... I can't know for certain that this isn't the eye of the storm. But it seems likely that it isn't.

So that's the position from which I can offer only my own story, so far much shorter than yours. I don't know if it even feels the same for you. I've kept a diary for years now, so I didn't need to choose to keep one when that happened. What I'm about to recount happened just after my conversion to Christianity. I've grown as a believer and as a person since then, and my faith is stronger and more helpful now, but it was enough even then. What I did was... I finally tried to put it into writing. If you really want me to, I might be able to PM you some selected excerpts, but even besides the fact that I don't have the diary with me right now, it's deeply personal and will never be better than terribly embarrassing. But I just wrote it down, wrote down everything that came to mind, every single thing said by the little voice in the back of my mind telling me I was no good. I found that nothing in the world that I could say came close to justifying the feelings. Before that one night when I started writing, I had felt like, because of the "a million is a statistic" phenomenon, I didn't feel bad enough. But when I could look at it rationally, I also started to pull out faulty bits of logic, inductive reasoning that didn't seem to hold up to close examination, bias that kept me from seeing myself as I am.

Even so, that wasn't enough. The relief that yielded was shaky, and I stood poised to fall back down, harder this time. I did, once. But the first thing that I began to realize was that although I hate people who hold others to a higher standard than the one to which they hold themselves, I was guilty of exactly the opposite, which was no less unreasonable (though somewhat less infuriating to the people around me). The first order of business, now that my mind was clear enough to reason about it, was to watch others. I saw someone make a small mistake that I didn't think all that bad. It was practically identical to one of my own mistakes, to which I'd responded with undying shame and the certain knowledge that I was utterly pathetic. After that... well, everything has come in its own time. It's not the schedule I would have chosen, but at this point, my self-esteem is normal. I'm melancholy and overly critical by nature, but to the degree that it's present now, it's not really a bad thing.

Yeah, helping with practical things is basically the definition of CBT. I guess the idea in that case is that as the practical suggestions improve functioning, which will improve mood. Though I've heard of CBT for the depression itself. That seems to be at effective and at first glance seems to come in several forms, but really never differs in its essentials. I'm not exactly trained to teach this, but from what I've read, effective CBT for depression consists of watching to see when you think something negative. Then you interrupt the thought process, consider alternatives and then evaluate whether or not your original thought process was correct. Generally, you're supposed to write it down when you're first learning. A book called Learned Optimism details one possibility. I didn't like it; it made me feel rather hopeless. Then again (as supported by the quiz in the very same book and my own observations), that was just after I'd begun my recovery and although I'd gotten more hopeful, I had extremely pessimistic and self-deprecating thoughts and I was scared to attribute to myself more than low-average competence on anything at all, admitting that I might be kind of in the middle on intelligence. (Practically everyone I know says I'm smart and I'm a straight-A student.)

So for practical help, don't be scared to admit to competence. It doesn't mean you're selfish or have an inflated view of yourself. (And what if you did? It wouldn't be the end of the world. Maybe it feels like it would-- it did for me-- but a little arrogance isn't the worst trait to have.)

Your math issues seem to be different from mine, so my workarounds won't help. However, I can at least try to help. When I was memorizing kanji (Chinese characters) at about 20 per day (I've had fair long-term recall for the ones I learned; though I've lost several of the more obscure ones from lack of use, I can read most of the common ones), I made use of mnemonics. Turning the pictures into something else was useful, especially something related-- the character that looks like (and is actually composed of the kanji for) a man standing next to a tree means "vacation", so I remembered it as a nice vacation out in the wilderness, trying to figure out to start with whether this is a good spot to pitch the tent. I guess I could've seen it as looking for Christmas trees over winter break, too. On two occasions, I made up stories (I'm a writer, although these were terrible by any standard). In one, the kanji for "summer" was a picture of a vividly-described species of alien that invaded one summer. There were also the songs with lyrics describing how the kanji were drawn and what they sounded like and what they meant. (No, I didn't make up the tunes. Imagine, if you will, the tune of Colors by Flow, with lyrics that begin "Kibishii! It means cold and can also be pronounced rin! It looks like a TV set from the future..." It went on to describe the kanji stroke by stroke.)

(With the kanji, at least, there were also a lot that were actually made up of other kanji. Memorizing the kanji for "woman" and "child" let me just remember that the kanji for "fond of" was a woman to the left of a child.)

Can you try carrying around a "cheat sheet"? You know, with some basic formulas written in as understandable a form as possible? Worst-case scenario, can you look at the problem and derive the formula every time you need it? I've been known to do things like that. WARNING: this will slow your processing speed so much you could lose a race against a glacier.

The other thing is that time is not only essential in all treatments, but a treatment in and of itself. It doesn't rival the other therapies in effectiveness, but if you measure someone in the middle of a depressive episode, then after a few months, just doing nothing for a while seemed to cause a slight reduction in MADRS score.

I don't know what I'd prefer because I don't know what it's like to have dyslexia.