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MotherKnowsBest
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15 Sep 2010, 12:58 pm

Another_Alien wrote:
nekowafer wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
Oh pl-ease. You're not seriously disputing that most women (I didn't say all) want a man that's more masculine than them.


Maybe that is how it used to be, but I think more of the younger generation (say teens to 30s) are accepting of it now. Older women most likely are not. And it's getting more and more acceptable every day.


Well, it depends how you define 'masculine'. I agree that younger women aren't swooning over knights in shining armour to the same degree as their grandmothers, and are more likely to date men who earn less and are less ambitious than men were in the past, as gender roles in the workplace change. I don't agree that significant numbers of young women would date men that acted/dressed in a traditionally feminine manner (despite what's been said on this thread). The vast majority of young women still essentially want to be 'the feminine one' in their relationships. Likewise men are now much more accepting of successful, ambitious women, but the vast majority of men still want to feel manly in comparison to their partners.

The qualities we seek in the opposite sex have been hard-wired into our brains by thousands of years of evolution. Yes, times are changing, and, yes, we are partly guided by our intellect. But 50 years of feminism hasn't wiped away 10,000 years of primitive instinct.


You should come and live in Sweden then you'd see how wrong you are. It is actually becoming quite difficult to tell the boys from the girls here.



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15 Sep 2010, 1:02 pm

This is one of the main reasons that being a female with aspergers syndrome contributed to my transgenderism. I am now transitioning to become a male.

Now that society sees me as a male, I have to say that it is much easier being a male with aspergers than a female with aspergers. The first post is 95% true.

And men are more emotional than society is lead to believe. It is just that they are encourged to hold them in which eventually results in anger.

With my experiences, I now turn a blind eye toward gender and sex. It is such a stupid way to generalize a person.



bee33
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15 Sep 2010, 1:10 pm

mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Is wanting a man who doesn't use too many hair products really ingrained in the brain? I severely doubt it. Those things are socially defined. There are cultures where it is the men who wear lots of ornaments and body paint, while the women dress plainly and keep their hair short.

There are many such cultural differences even among cultures that are relatively similar. When I lived in Brazil, the ideal female beauty had a prominent butt rather than large breasts, which are idealized in the US. Even within the US, black women are more interested in the appearance of their hair than in being stick-thin, while white women are expected to be thin to conform to the ideal of female beauty.

I agree that in our society(and other societies) ideals of beauty are primarily cultural rather than biological, though there may be an element of biology as well (health, youth, etc.)

But all of this is irrelevant to someone seeking a relationship, because each person is only trying to attract one man or one woman. All that matters is finding that person who appreciates whatever our attributes may be and whose attributes we appreciate. (Not that it's easily done, of course.)



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15 Sep 2010, 1:16 pm

The majority of the problems that apply to women listed in the OP also apply to men, sometimes in different ways. Why be divisive? I don't get it.


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15 Sep 2010, 1:17 pm

MotherKnowsBest wrote:
It was my weekly 3 hour ordeal. Standing around, not knowing what to do, what to say, where to go, and just like school being completely ignored by everyone.


It is almost as if people with AS filled out a form before birth...

"I want to be:
a) Ignored by everyone
b) Bullied
c) Ignored and bullied
"



Another_Alien
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15 Sep 2010, 1:20 pm

mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Meow101 wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
Men and women mutually decide what we find attractive in the opposite sex. Rightly or wrongly, men do enjoy it when women dress up, but women would hate it if men invested the same effort in their appearance (in fact, women complain if men are 'too metrosexual' or 'he uses more products than me').

I believe this is biological. In primitive society men were attracted to the most fertile women, and fertility is symbolized by youth and beauty, whilst women were attracted to the 'best hunters'. These primitive instincts remain in our DNA, so we continue to revere female beauty and male athleticism (the modern of equivalent of hunting), whilst we dismiss 'pretty boys' and 'athletic tomboys'. It may be unfair, but feminine men and masculine women will always be marginalized in mainstream culture.

So it's not society to blame, but biology.


And our overdeveloped frontal lobes can't say, this is ridiculous, let's move beyond this crap and think with the *correct* head for once?

~Kate


THANK YOOOOOOU! I'm so tired of hearing people casually blame social problems on biology and then brush them off as if they were incurable and we should just accept it and shut up.

It's not ok to treat men as hunters and women as walking wombs. We can change our mental perspective if we want to. All it takes is using your damn neocortex. It's not that hard. I don't expect men to be 'hunter' types. I don't expect them to provide for me or do the heavy lifting for me. I think it's every bit as sexist as criticizing a woman for wearing comfortable clothes instead of highly sexualizing ones.


That's wildly exaggerating what I said.

What you personally find attractive in men isn't the issue here, it's what most women find attractive in men. Most women want men who are discernably more masculine than them. Is this nature or nurture? Well, let's just say that highly intelligent, highly educated, very successful women are just as likely to want a masculine man. Have these women - despite all their great talents - simply been brainwashed to want certain qualities in a man? And do you honestly believe human beings are the ONLY species of animal that doesn't mate by primitive instinct, at least to some degree, especially as we evolved from some of these animals? If we could dismiss all our primitive instincts just by using our 'damn neocortex' no-one would ever have a panic attack!

As for women wearing comfortable clothes: why shouldn't BOTH sexes look nice for each other? If women have a 'right' to demand that men act/dress masculine, then why shouldn't men have the 'right' to demand that women act/dress feminine? Suggesting that women should be able to to 'dress down' on dates is a double standard if you don't give men 'permission' to 'dress up'. If you're willing to accept a boyfriend/husband who wears dresses and make-up, fair enough, but if you're one of the 99.99% of women who wouldn't accept this, because it's too feminine, then you can hardly complain if he considers your dress sense too masculine!

I don't personally want to wear women's clothes I hasten to add. Just illustrating a point. lol


Is wanting a man who doesn't use too many hair products really ingrained in the brain? I severely doubt it. Those things are socially defined. There are cultures where it is the men who wear lots of ornaments and body paint, while the women dress plainly and keep their hair short.

I don't think either sex should make demands of the other in terms of going against their nature. If a guy wants to wear makeup to meet me, that's fine. And conversely, no, he doesn't have the right to demand that I wear a dress and heels.


Yes, actually, wanting a man who doesn't use too many products is ingrained in the brain, as is wanting a woman who's not a sports jock. I've already explained why we celebrate female beauty and male athleticism, whilst (collectively as a society) we're not generally turned on sexually by male beauty and female athleticism. Hence male vanity. e.g. using too many products, is unattractive to most women, and muscular women are unattractive to most men. I'm not saying this is fair, it just is!

There are cultures who behave in all sorts of peculiar ways, e.g. cannibalism. I think it's wiser to judge human behaviour in its totality, and not focus on the odd African tribe.

Well, you're the latest in an expanding line of women on this thread who don't mind a man wearing make-up. Maybe this is more of an AS thing, i.e. accepting of unusual behaviour; I don't know. However, very few women in the 'real world' would be turned on by a man who appeared so feminine. If you are, of course, fair enough.

As a matter of interest, though, how feminine would you be willing to go here? I mean would you accept a man in a dress, heels, etc., or is make-up the limit? And if it is the limit why so?



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15 Sep 2010, 1:24 pm

OddFiction wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I do understand your "lot" in life actually. I don't see what made you conclude that I don't unless you feel that bringing to light the things women face, in response to accusations that women have it easier, somehow minimizes what men with AS face.


You made many points in your original post that apply to both sexes equally when it comes to people with ASD. The presentation of those points was such that you implied they primarily applied to women. You used phrases such as "more at risk of lonliness" etc. This was where I took umbrage.

I don't think women have it any harder than men.

Chronos wrote:
It can indeed. There certainly are some men with AS who might relate more to NT women on a social level, or at least feel safer with them. But as you will see if you look in the women's forum, a large number of women with AS have great difficulty related to NT women and find men in general fair easier to relate to and socialize with. It is a big problem that women with AS face.


That PERSONS with AS face. We have the same issue. To the same extent.
Reread my previous post.
Men who don't have a string of conquests, a love for roughhousing, a membership at the gym, big muscles, sports enthusiasms, joy of loud bars, etc etc are ostracised just as badly as the women who fail to get interested in gossipy gossip-land. And again, men with no friends are often seen as 'odd' by women, and by their families as well, whereas a woman without friends isn't quite as offputting.

In addition, I'd like to point out that ASD women are not the only ones with trouble maintaining a healthy sexual connection. There are nine (no other details will be provided) women on this website alone, in NT(f)-ASD(m) relationships, who I am in frequent pm-communication with who have issues about their husbands failing to be sexually assertive / sufficiently active / receptive in the relationship. I bring this up, because I feel concerned that some commentary in this thread might inadvertanly push the NT women in these situations to feel even more troubled about their situations than they already are. And I assume by basic logic, that there are more than those 9 out there in the world.

But I didn't come here to argue.
I'd like to end it. I'd like to agree that ASD men have a LOT of the same issues that you posted in your OP and to the SAME extent as women do. I'd like to agree that men who say "Women can just go out there and fill their needs" are short sighted and wrong. I'd like to agree that a lot of men are looking for romance and relationships, not just (or even primarily) sex. I'd like to agree that noone should be putting down anyone else's troubles in regards to ANY topic. That we are all here, as people on, or associated with people on the ASD spectrum, to support one another, and to stop criticizing or weighing the troubles of one gender against the other.


I believe some things I listed do affect women more, but I never meant to imply men were never affected by the same or similar things. I think there are also things which are going to affect men with AS more, in general. There will always be exceptions. But my original point was neither of us have it easier, and so and I'd be quite happy to agree to most of what you would like to agree with.



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15 Sep 2010, 1:30 pm

MotherKnowsBest wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
nekowafer wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
Oh pl-ease. You're not seriously disputing that most women (I didn't say all) want a man that's more masculine than them.


Maybe that is how it used to be, but I think more of the younger generation (say teens to 30s) are accepting of it now. Older women most likely are not. And it's getting more and more acceptable every day.


Well, it depends how you define 'masculine'. I agree that younger women aren't swooning over knights in shining armour to the same degree as their grandmothers, and are more likely to date men who earn less and are less ambitious than men were in the past, as gender roles in the workplace change. I don't agree that significant numbers of young women would date men that acted/dressed in a traditionally feminine manner (despite what's been said on this thread). The vast majority of young women still essentially want to be 'the feminine one' in their relationships. Likewise men are now much more accepting of successful, ambitious women, but the vast majority of men still want to feel manly in comparison to their partners.

The qualities we seek in the opposite sex have been hard-wired into our brains by thousands of years of evolution. Yes, times are changing, and, yes, we are partly guided by our intellect. But 50 years of feminism hasn't wiped away 10,000 years of primitive instinct.


You should come and live in Sweden then you'd see how wrong you are. It is actually becoming quite difficult to tell the boys from the girls here.


A good friend of mine lives in Sweden (Sodermalm, Stockholm, actually). He's just as masculine as the average man in the UK, and judging by everything he tells me about his life (including his love life), and photos he's shown me - including one of his very feminine girlfriend - I find it VERY hard to believe what you're saying. He goes to football matches (Hammarby), gets drunk, drives a bike, etc. My impression is that the government tries to force feed gender equality, but most people pretty much ignore it.

I'm hoping to go there in the not too distant future, so I'll see for myself anyway.



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15 Sep 2010, 1:32 pm

Moog wrote:
The majority of the problems that apply to women listed in the OP also apply to men, sometimes in different ways. Why be divisive? I don't get it.


Because there were a good number of people on here who needed it explicitly stated to them what women with AS have to endure, whether it applies primarily to women with AS or both sexes equally. They had a case of "The grass is always greener" syndrome.



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15 Sep 2010, 1:47 pm

Excellent post !

I am a woman on the autistic spectrum and I have found everything you mentioned to be true in the five decades that I have spent trying to navigate through the NT world. I am not sure I would consider it harder for women than men, just hard in ways that men on the spectrum would not encounter (like the annoyance of wearing a bra or high heel shoes).

For me being on the spectrum is complicated by also having a mood disorder. I spent two years under the "care" of a psychiatrist for the mood disorder and left when it became obvious that I was becoming much worse. Since leaving I have determined that as an autistic adult I cannot trust the "treatments" that NT doctors think are just fine. I have successfully treated the mood disorder using a holistic approach that does not assault my central nervous system with psychotropic drugs.

I have found the NT world difficult to navigate for many reasons. It is too loud, too busy, with too much emphasis on social networking, for my fragile nervous system. I genuinely like being left alone, and content myself with keeping social interaction to a minimum.


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Chronos
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15 Sep 2010, 1:58 pm

If life were no more formal than khakis and a loose fitting shirt, I'd be quite happy.



mechanicalgirl39
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15 Sep 2010, 2:04 pm

Another_Alien wrote:

Yes, actually, wanting a man who doesn't use too many products is ingrained in the brain, as is wanting a woman who's not a sports jock. I've already explained why we celebrate female beauty and male athleticism, whilst (collectively as a society) we're not generally turned on sexually by male beauty and female athleticism. Hence male vanity. e.g. using too many products, is unattractive to most women, and muscular women are unattractive to most men. I'm not saying this is fair, it just is!

There are cultures who behave in all sorts of peculiar ways, e.g. cannibalism. I think it's wiser to judge human behaviour in its totality, and not focus on the odd African tribe.

Well, you're the latest in an expanding line of women on this thread who don't mind a man wearing make-up. Maybe this is more of an AS thing, i.e. accepting of unusual behaviour; I don't know. However, very few women in the 'real world' would be turned on by a man who appeared so feminine. If you are, of course, fair enough.

As a matter of interest, though, how feminine would you be willing to go here? I mean would you accept a man in a dress, heels, etc., or is make-up the limit? And if it is the limit why so?


Quote:
Yes, actually, wanting a man who doesn't use too many products is ingrained in the brain, as is wanting a woman who's not a sports jock.


You seem to be very sure of that. Remember that the hair products thing is social, and arbitrary. Certain ones ARE seen as masculine (Shockwave hair gel, lurid dyes, etc). What do you make of that?

Quote:
as is wanting a woman who's not a sports jock.


As far as I see, it's not so much NOT being athletic that is required, but not looking too heavy or muscular. Endurance athletes are seen as suitably feminine because they're so light and lean. Olympic weightlifters, not so much.

Quote:
There are cultures who behave in all sorts of peculiar ways, e.g. cannibalism. I think it's wiser to judge human behaviour in its totality, and not focus on the odd African tribe


My point was that the particular difference you were on about is a social one. There is nothing about using volumizer shampoo or conditioner that stops a man being tough, responsible, or physically strong.

Quote:
As a matter of interest, though, how feminine would you be willing to go here? I mean would you accept a man in a dress, heels, etc., or is make-up the limit? And if it is the limit why so?


Make up and heeled boots would be fine. Dresses? I think some types of dress would look quite cool on a male body, yes.


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15 Sep 2010, 2:23 pm

mg39

The point I'm making is not that male products themselves are a biological turn-off for women (obviously they're not as there weren't any products in primitive society), but that male vanity in general is a biological turn-off for most women (though not you apparently).

Men aren't turned off by women who are in good shape, you're right. But the point is that men don't want women who are more athletic than them, just as most women don't want men who are prettier than they are.

Again, these biological differences (men wanting pretty women; women wanting athletic men) are biologically hard-wired, and, short of artificial genetic recoding, are unlikely to EVER change, regardless of how the workplace changes. Human beings have, basically, stopped evolving, i.e. we're physically, more or less, the same as we were thousands of years ago.



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15 Sep 2010, 2:29 pm

Chronos wrote:
If life were no more formal than khakis and a loose fitting shirt, I'd be quite happy.


Me too.


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15 Sep 2010, 3:07 pm

People, especially women, will see me and think I need affection so they try to hug me or touch me. They will say things to me like "I'm not going to hurt you" as if I were 5 years old. If I were male I don't think I would have to deal with this type of BS.

I don't think any gender has it worse than another when it comes to Asperger's, but the OP has good points. When I was younger I would be approached by people my age and they'd want to do my makeup because I don't wear makeup. Nobody wanted anything to do with me when I was younger because I couldn't answer questions about boys, which is all they talked about along with makeup and clothes, so by their logic I was gay and to be avoided. People either see me as hateful, cold, rude or treat me like a 5 year old. I find it very difficult to be around most females because I do not understand their social dynamics.

Those are a few of the differences I've seen, but I'm sure they could be flipped and applied to males in some manner. I do know I would have likely been diagnosed sooner if I were male.



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15 Sep 2010, 3:13 pm

OddFiction wrote:

For women, as I understand it, keeping your virginity is a RAISE in stature with other women, with other men, and with parents?
ummm, not in my experience. it was never perceived as a positive thing to stay a virgin amongst my family or friends. perhaps is a more religiously moral environment, that could be true.


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