Julian Assange - Asperger's??

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Alex

Asperger Syndrome is usually accompanied by dyspraxia, executive dysfunction, Visual/Spatial disorientation and ADD.

I agree.


I totally agree with this too, I'm not about to feel sorry for that guy. And I am refraining from saying what I think he deserves.

Your point? A dx of AS in not contingent on having any of these, which means, simply, you don't have to have any of them to have AS. I have AS and I only have one of those--executive dysfunction.

This is why AS is a spectrum condition.

Well, more importantly, being a neurological condition. AS isn't static. The brain is not a static organ, it is always changing. So AS always changes. You'll always have AS but it will change. I wasn't dx'd until I was about 28. My AS today is quite different from what it was when I was 28, or 20, or 14, or 4. I have made improvements, because I have sought to improve.

Various aspects of your life can alter your progress in personal development, including your willingness to challenge yourself or pursue goals in life. Likewise, things like comorbid conditions and secondary mental illness can alter one's personal development.

Basically, every individual with AS is an individual and their AS will fit them, and only them. I think a lot the "Assange isn't an Aspie because he's 'too functional'" thinking here is people thinking everyone with AS has to be like them and have their challenges. No, it doesn't work like that. That's very myopic and self-centered. You have to think more objectively, if you are capable of that (that's my less than opaque way of saying some of you guys need critical thinking skills--I used to think people with AS naturally thought more critically, but you guys prove me gravely wrong on that!).

I'm sorry if any of you are not as functional as Assange, but that is not an good argument for saying he doesn't have AS, OK? That's using yourself as baseline model for AS and that's just fallacious. No one of us here is a baseline model of AS.

I would really appreciate it if people took the time to read my comments earlier in the thread about my observations of Assange's communication style and other observable traits (and I note again--previously I held he was just a narcissistic, and now, after considerably more research, I am trying to make an intelligent and critical case for him possibly being an Aspie).

And in addition to my own observations, here's some recollected observations of an apparent NT who had dinner with Assange pre-Wikileaks and wasn't nearly as sympathetic towards him and his "auty" ways as I am

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/Wik ... ent-191533

Let me tell you a story:

Before I was dx'd, I had a job at an antiquarian bookstore. Seemed prefect for me--books and people who liked books. Except there was a catch--I had to sell books, and not just any books, but old, overpriced books.

My boss was just besides himself with me most of the times, because I would let what he saw as "certain sells" walk out the door empty-handed. I soon realized I was expected to be a book pusher. And I proved to be pretty awful at it.

It wasn't because I lack sympathy or empathy or that I get them confused. I am a deeply empathetic person. I can imagine--intellectually and emotionally--the pain of others. I am proof that the meme about Aspies lacking empathy is just a crock based on other people's biases towards us. I am also sympathetic--I can feel kindness towards another who is experiencing difficulties.

But that wasn't my problem. Well, actually it was part of the problem--I was empathetic and sympathetic towards our customers, but I lacked in "interpersonal intelligence." That's the ability to assess people's behavior, predict the outcome of their behavior and to perhaps influence that behavior towards my own means. Very different from feeling empathy or sympathy.

One day I was at the shop by myself and a woman came in to return a bunch of rare baseball books her husband had bought. It was a lot of money, and she told me how her husband had severe bipolar and he bought these books during a manic phase. She continued to tell me how his bipolar was driving them to financial ruin and that she had to return them because they couldn't afford such an expensive purchase. So I took them back, no argument.

Well, a little later my boss came in and I told him about the return. He was furious. He acted like I had been taken in by a con, saying, "I remember that guy--he didn't seem manic when I sold him those books! Why did you let her talk you into taking them back???" I nearly lost my job over that.

My boss had made the original sale, and I could tell by how angry he was, it was one of his "sucker" sales, where he would talk someone into buying something more expensive than they wanted. I was besides myself, deeply confused by my boss' callous atttude. I genuinely believed that woman--I sympathized with her. And I empathized with her husband, seeing I know what it's like to have a condition that leads you to do stupid things like that.

At the time I couldn't get my head around my boss' anger. Looking back on it now, I understand. it was because he was "people smart"--he had high interpersonal intelligence--and he was making a living that way. And he could sleep at night because he lacked empathy and sympathy about his customers. On the flipside, my extreme empathy and sympathy and my dearth of interpersonal intelligence cost him a lot of money that day.

So it's about interpersonal intelligence--about how good you are at assessing human behavior and influencing--and not about empathy or sympathy that makes you a good salesperson. Moreover, someone like my former boss might argue having a lot of either empathy or sympathy would be an drawback in that kind of job. And that's why I have never taken another sales job since.

I don't know (or care much) if Assange is an aspie or not, but your posts are great, Mercurial!

Latest from The Guardian newspaper:

More evidence of Assange being somewhere on or very close to the Autism Spectrum? ( Personally I'm good at reading maps, like them in fact, but I have seen posts on WP which suggest that it might be characteristic of some/many on the spectrum )
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ha ha- i can only read maps if im traveling north- my 3d modelling skills are vile.

anyway-
what may appear as narcacisstic in assange may be due to any number of AS reasons- much of the 'he's narcassistic' criticism seems to centre around- 'he has his pic on his website'- but Assange's reasoning may be, for example -'i saw someone else's website and they had their own picture front page- so it seemd logical for me to do the same.' mirroring behaviour, with a subsequent failure to re-assess that decision. (or a million other reasons). (wikipedia has a pic of j.wales on it now, though for different reasons (scarey eyes, btw)).

this is EXACTLY the type of tiresome AS behaviour i blight my life with- simply misunderstanding what is normal, or being unable to consider something logically, because im running off on an obsession.

so while his website is about data, not him, assange himself may not realise that having his pic on it will be seen as unusual; aka THEORY OF MIND from what ive read of his interviews, he seems to veer towards a crusade for truth, rather than personal glory, and so from this POV, again, i dont think narcacism is a logical conclusion.
dont think one could dismiss speculation about him being AS with such confidence, for so much of his behaviour supports it. speech, social skills, lifestyle, skills.

an obvious example of all this is that anyone with late dx AS will have been told by various 'experts' any number of reasons for their behaviour- when AS is the major, correct, one.
i was told my problems with light, colours, movement, odours, noise etc- were psychosis, i was making a fuss/making it up etc. but its synesthesia and sensory overload, both common facets of AS. thus without knowing the reasons for assange sticking his pic on his site, i think saying he's narcassistic has little, if any basis; it still seems AS. additionally, 'he's sent some rude emails to his staff' seems AS (or normal nt, too)- people with AS are often (unintentionally) rude and impatient too... it comes with the territory.
considering everything en masse, i think there are more than reasonable grounds to say he should be testsed, with a high liklihood he'd come out as AS.

im also staggered at the- he's high functioning, therefore cant be AS- a reminder- INDUCTION IS BAD!

and dilbert- the workers doing all the work, the bosses getting all the dosh is capitalism, not AS v NT.


anyway... assange himself aparently has' half jokingly' said that he thinks himself to be 'somewhere on the autistic spectrum'. and...

'a portrait emerges of a brilliant, socially awkward crusader, a "hard-core geek" who would rather interact with a machine than a person but who was also determined to change the world.
The friend is intensely guarded, as many of Assange's friends are, but the admiration for him is abundant. Assange is described as a humanist, a man who serves no masters, a Renaissance man with 21st-century tools at his disposal, who "decided early on that the world is not as fair a place as it could be, but that the internet provides a way of creating a more level playing field in terms of justice".'

HAHAHAHA! Awesome dude. I see you get it. Yes your experience selling books is pretty typical for sales. I meet sales people in my line of work and they are all.... eeeeewwww.

"Let me tell you a story. Blah blah. I bought an Aston Martin and crashed it two weeks later. Blah blah. HAHA sucks but that's life! So see, spending $20K on this Jeep here is not a big deal." - I'm paraphrasing, but that's what the car salesman fed me when I was buying my Jeep. Gawd what a douche.

Back to your bookstore story. What of all those talented people who wrote the books? Where are they in the picture? They sold the rights to a publisher for 10K? 20K? And hence all these people who can't even write, your boss included, were making money off their effort. Millions of dollars.

I won't make a point here. I'll let the reader draw their own conclusions.

I know. I never claimed otherwise. Capitalism is unscrupulous people with great social smarts and connections, but no trade of their own, making money off the talented underpaid workforce.

My hopes are that the Internet will become The Great Equalizer. An entire salesforce can be replaced with one nice Web site. We'll be able to buy goods directly from the people who produced it. I like, for example, what the gaming industry has done with direct content delivery (Steam, et. al.) Screw the publishers.

Before I start - I loved the Goodies as well ( sorry, that was on the first page; it's taken me this long to register and formulate my response!), and I'm not AS!

My stepson, however, is, so I can recognise a lot of the signs. (And he loves the Goodies too, although he's now obsessed with other shows).

And Julian Assange has them in spades.

It's strange - well, not really, as we know the general attitude toward AS sufferers in this country, and most of the world - that there's been no comment on his demeanour, his obsession, his lack of forming relationships - I've joined this site because I just saw the e-mails he sent to one girl, dismissed as "creepy" by the Daily Mail, but which I recognise as classic behaviour by an Asperger's sufferer.

I can't post URLs yet, just go the the Daily Mail website to see the article.

Not that it'll do him much good, despite his rich and powerful supporters. If the Americans want someone who's caused them embarrassment, they'll go out, guns blazing, to get him ( vide Gary McKinnon!)

He really needs to get somewhere where the Americans can't touch him ( and take Gary along!), but I don't know where that is. Otherwise, they'll get him for sure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ealed.html

Yes, they're definitely rather weird.

I actually don't, ( or didn't immediately anyway ), identify with the way these e-mails are written, way too many words used "strangely", one or two rather pretentious ones spelled wrongly, and some embarrassingly clunky/laborious metaphors :lol ... ... ... though thinking about it I realise that I'm prone to the latter ...

But I recognise the "floweriness", and the over elaborate ( to the point of being almost unreadable/incomprehensible ) grammar/sentence construction. :lol

Interesting, and "unfortunate" at this juncture too because I can well imagine that quite a lot of people will see these e-mails as proof that he might indeed be "a rapist" ( as if it was a species rather than an action ), because the language *is* so "creepy"/bizarre, and because of the perseveration ( or "obsession" ).

The perseveration bit is very familiar, the earnest, well-intentioned, maybe even desperate/driven search to understand what is happening, what has gone wrong, the lengthy, intricate ( and 'painful' ) calculation/hypothesising of scenarios to explain what has happened, ... the complete and utter absence of any "gut" feeling about what has really happened.
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Last edited by ouinon on 17 Dec 2010, 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

PS. I thought that the speech he gave on the steps of the court house on his release on bail yesterday evening was also classic aspergers; no sense of humour, a totally serious treatment of/reaction to the situation, the scene of journalists waiting etc. Interestingly one of them said in a tweet that one would think that Assange had been in prison for 20 years rather than just 9 days, but somehow I think that has something to do with his being so Asperger serious, he's not Bruce Willis to laugh it off as if it was nothing, "just a scratch".

He spoke as if he was emerging from an ordeal, which he saw clearly was far less serious/gruelling than other people's, ( he had got the solitary confinement that he'd asked for, ostensibly for safety/security reasons, but felt concern for others in that situation; Bradley Manning for example .... ) but an ordeal nonetheless ... and the media aren't used to dealing with such first degree seriousness anymore about anything less than famine, or death, or climate change; everything is either spin, fake horror or tragedy, or laughed-off.
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Yes, they're a little unusual.. i skim read the first couple and thought they sounded like something i'd write... the following ones seems more private, so i stopped.
how horrible to have one's private life exposed like this- imagine if every love or sexual conversation were published. everyone'd sound mad, weird, creepy... his language and grammatical style are a little odd, perhaps, but its how i write, too, ha.

but i kind of disagree that he seems humourless- i think he's- i cant think of the phrase- slightly/quietly smiling sometimes- but doesnt smile easily. lots of AS people dont smile 'natrually'.. I dont mean hes smiling in a confident or satisfied manner- just.. wry, akward ....

there was an interesting interview w him on newsnight last night (my fave news prog) (outside in the norfolk snow- why not indoors???? its so cold!).. its the first item up- http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mk25

its on bbc tv, so if you're outside the uk youll need one of these things to watch

http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl ... 7113b09eab

and hell66- yes, the goodies IS good- but i think the muppets stands up better now. also catweazle, which remains epic. in my mind, at least.

Moog found this link to a news site that discusses Assange's blog (you have to search the article for the blog link, as most of the article discusses a potential OKCupid profile). Assange's narcissism is quite clear on the blog, apparently:

http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... ood-enough

he may be an Aspie, but that doesn't preclude him from being an as*hole.

I don't think he is at all autistic, and I find all the rallying around "the cause" a truly terrifying spectacle for victims of sexual violence, who never receive support of this order. I find the evasiveness of the Assange bandwagon terrifyingly shifty too - people who can not answer the question put to them piss me off, and Assange pisses me off more than most evasive liars. Without subscribing to the ridiculous conspiracies, I do agree that this case arose out of Assange's high profile, and other men with similar alleged behaviour would have escaped prosecution.

The younger of the two alleged victims, on the other hand, appears to have some serious social awkwardness issue that lead her to compulsively collect information about Assange for months, apparently falling in love at long distance, until she had the opportunity to take him home like a prize, without ever realizing how vulnerable to predation she had made herself. I feel truly sorry for the predicament that she is in, and the awful publicity of her private life.