Aspies/auties and f***ed up beliefs

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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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03 Apr 2011, 11:58 pm

ZeroGravitas wrote:

^^^ Ah. Now consider the thought experiment:

Quote:

Julie and Mark are brother and sister. They are traveling together in France on summer vacation from college. One night they are staying alone in a cabin near the beach. They decide that it would be interesting and fun if they tried having sex. At the very least, it would be a new experience for each of them. Julie was already taking birth control pills, but Mark uses a condom too, just to be safe even though he has had a vasectomy. They both enjoy having sex, but they decide never to do it again.

Under these conditions, divorced from your biological argument, is what they did still wrong? Does it still disgust you? They are not in any way likely to reproduce and thereby express recessive traits in offspring.

If you still find this to be wrong, then you must admit that there is another component to your judgment of it than the merely biological.

It's creepy. Billions of people in the world and they choose each other? Why would they?
It's not the idea of them reproducing, it's the idea of them breaking that sacred trust in familial relationships such as siblings that's repulsive.

swbluto
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04 Apr 2011, 12:08 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

ZeroGravitas wrote:

^^^ Ah. Now consider the thought experiment:

Quote:

It's creepy. Billions of people in the world and they choose each other? Why would they?
It's not the idea of them reproducing, it's the idea of them breaking that sacred trust in familial relationships such as siblings that's repulsive.

Ze good ole' Westermarck effect. First comes the instinctive repulsion, then the subsequent rationalization, suggestive of something more fundamental than the rationalization. Hence, Ze Effect.

Also, as far as "Why would they choose each other?", there's a lot going for them. They've known each others for years, so they inherently trust each other, and they're most conveniently available.

I kind of wonder, due to the effect, if we separated every opposite sex siblings for the first five years of their life and brought them together, if there'd be a lot more incest and substantially more acceptance of it? That is, if all of society's people never instinctively experienced the effect first-hand, would people even recognize the "it's creepy" instinctive repulsion? Heck -- would it even become promoted? (Until people eventually realized the longterm reproductive problems by the 2nd or 3rd generation and would start discouraging it.)

Last edited by swbluto on 04 Apr 2011, 12:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

League_Girl
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04 Apr 2011, 12:08 am

TBH, I find incest to be creepy.

I don't care what they do in their personal lives but if I wanted to judge them for it, all I have to do is look down on them and treat them like they are bad people or act like they are bad and see them as bad people. But me finding it creepy or weird isn't judging unless I want to hate them for it or treat them like crap or dislike them for it. It's just a feeling I have.

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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04 Apr 2011, 12:19 am

swbluto wrote:

There was a study on that and the results were siblings don't find each other attractive, even when not raised together.
As for the trust thing, if they were intimate the trust would vanish. Trust is a reason not to.

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04 Apr 2011, 12:24 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

There was a study on that and the results were siblings don't find each other attractive, even when not raised together.

Really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction

"When proximity during this critical period[the first few years] does not occur—for example, where a brother and sister are brought up separately, never meeting one another—they may find one another highly sexually attractive when they meet as adults. This phenomenon is known as genetic sexual attraction. "

Quote:

As for the trust thing, if they were intimate the trust would vanish. Trust is a reason not to.

Maybe. I'm not that insightful/experienced to intelligently respond.

Last edited by swbluto on 04 Apr 2011, 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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04 Apr 2011, 12:26 am

That link says it's rare, and of course, it does happen. It's just not common and isn't widely accepted.

swbluto
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04 Apr 2011, 12:36 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

That link says it's rare, and of course, it does happen. It's just not common and isn't widely accepted.

It does but the reference is no longer available. Looking for similar information online, I found...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2 ... 7.weekend2

which states, "50% of reunions between siblings, or parents and offspring, separated at birth result in obsessive emotions.". I wouldn't consider it authoritative, however, but I'm lead to believe it's probably accurate given that "similarity" is the major theme of wikipedia's "Interpersonal attraction" article and genetically similar individuals would be substantially likelier to be similar than random people from the population.

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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04 Apr 2011, 12:49 am

swbluto wrote:

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

That link says it's rare, and of course, it does happen. It's just not common and isn't widely accepted.

Then why is it I see so many couples who look nothing alike irl?

swbluto
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04 Apr 2011, 12:55 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

Then why is it I see so many couples who look nothing alike irl?

Physical similarity is merely one dimension among many for similarity to exist. I would think the more fundamental dimension for similarity is "personality", though physical similarity would probably matter more for the intrinsically "more superficial", especially if both were hott. (According to another wikipedia article, people tend to look for traits in partners that they value in themselves, and it seems like a lot of people extol physical beauty.)

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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04 Apr 2011, 12:58 am

swbluto wrote:

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

Then why is it I see so many couples who look nothing alike irl?

But, I see a lot of overweight, unattractive couples too and good looking, buff guys with overweight, so-so in the looks department women and good looking, buff women with unattractive, bald men.
And if none of them look like each other, it tells you what they don't want to see in a partner...members of the family they grew up in.
That's the reality, Bluto.

swbluto
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04 Apr 2011, 1:08 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

Yeah, and when I'm going out with that hot chick who looks nothing like me, I'm really thinking "Thank god she looks nothing my sister! (Bless her ugly old soul)".

And, of course, the same thing with the girl with so-so looks and an awesomely compatible personality.

But... no, maybe it has more to do with the fact that finding someone who looks like my sister is pretty hard to do, and among that group who does look like my sister, that they also have a compatible personality is also that much harder. So getting "everything similar" is a little difficult but it's more practical to try to get most things 'right'. And, even then, most couples aren't necessarily 'right' for each other.

[Btw, I've seen my share of "fairly similar looking" engaged couples to believe there's some positive correlation.]

[Also, apologies to those who don't understand sarcasm, but the italics indicate sarcasm. And the dating examples were hypothetical.]

Last edited by swbluto on 04 Apr 2011, 2:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

MyWorld
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04 Apr 2011, 1:49 am

ZeroGravitas wrote:

^^^ Ah. Now consider the thought experiment:

Quote:

You're one sick individual if you think it's okay.

manlyadam
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04 Apr 2011, 2:08 am

I think incest should be legal, why should other people tell you what is moraly right or not? I think it's messed up that people accept being told how to live when apparently people have a conscience of their own though I don't see why.

FYI a lot of people marry between cousins, it has only very recently become unpopular in western culture and is still popular in many areas of the world. "Keep the bloodline pure" "Marry into a good family" mean anything to you?

ZeroGravitas
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04 Apr 2011, 2:14 am

MyWorld: Trying to analyze the reason for behaviour does not constitute acceptance of it.

I find it interesting that despite this act of incest containing no risk of reproducing offspring expressing recessive traits, you still feel revulsion toward it. This would seem to suggest that indeed it is not the genetic hazards of incest which causes you to object to it.

If the only reason you object to incest was the risk of expressing recessive traits, you should find nothing wrong with the example in the thought experiment. Yet you do.

Why do you object to the example in the thought experiment?

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Ai_Ling
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04 Apr 2011, 2:44 am

Sorry I didnt read this entire thread but a few people on here were also in high support of prostitution which was I thought was a bit f-ed up.

swbluto
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04 Apr 2011, 2:52 am

Ai_Ling wrote:

Sorry I didnt read this entire thread but a few people on here were also in high support of prostitution which was I thought was a bit f-ed up.

Considering how many people have no other outlet and want to "f-uck up", so to say, do you blame them?

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