Shyness/Introversion vs mild AS-Differences.
26 Apr 2011, 10:19 am
scribbler16 wrote:
bumble wrote:
What if a person has a mixture of both social anxiety and ASD traits?
This. I don't think the two are at all mutually exclusive. In fact, in the "Social Thinking-Social Communication Profile" paper by Michelle Winner (and others) -- posted on this site about a month ago -- the authors argue that the more mild one's AS symptoms the greater their anxiety will likely be. They claim that this is because of the stronger "social radar" in individuals with mild AS. In this way mild AS burdens individuals with a unique -- and often distressing -- mixture of self-awareness and eccentric behavior.
Whether you want to call it "mild AS" or "shyness" or "Avoidant PD," it would not fair to overlook the inherent challenges of the condition.
Reading the paper, I had the impression that the SASC type (more or less the equivalent of Avoidant/Social Anxienty) was very different from the other types (while in the other types the problem was, in smaller or greater degree, a problem in "social radar", in SASC the problem seems more a question of hypersentivity and self-doubt):
Quote:
Those identified as SASC have a highly developed social radar; in fact you could argue they interpret the information they receive through their social radar with exaggeration. Rather than recognize that people have thoughts about each other in mostly benign ways, the SASC is often highly concerned about any thoughts another person is having, even if the SASC logically understands that he or she also routinely has small thoughts about others when around people.
This group, we hypothesize, is born neurologically to experience more anxiety and to intuitively doubt their social abilities. Their resistance to interacting in situations that make them uncomfortable can mean they appear to be more socially limited than they actually are.
When comfortable or in their social element (usually around family and close friends), they appear much like a NSC. However, when their social anxiety emerges, it appears to diminish their access to their social cognition and they appear much more like a WISC (the next group described).The huge shift in their social behavior from appearing comfortable around others to appearing highly uncomfortable and disconnected from others marks the SASC.
When feeling socially anxious, those who are in the SASC group over-‐focus on their feelings of anxiety and need to retreat from others, leading others to resist interacting with them. This then affirms the need of SASCs for their social anxiety: a catch-‐22.
This group, we hypothesize, is born neurologically to experience more anxiety and to intuitively doubt their social abilities. Their resistance to interacting in situations that make them uncomfortable can mean they appear to be more socially limited than they actually are.
When comfortable or in their social element (usually around family and close friends), they appear much like a NSC. However, when their social anxiety emerges, it appears to diminish their access to their social cognition and they appear much more like a WISC (the next group described).The huge shift in their social behavior from appearing comfortable around others to appearing highly uncomfortable and disconnected from others marks the SASC.
When feeling socially anxious, those who are in the SASC group over-‐focus on their feelings of anxiety and need to retreat from others, leading others to resist interacting with them. This then affirms the need of SASCs for their social anxiety: a catch-‐22.
26 Apr 2011, 10:49 am
TPE2 wrote:
scribbler16 wrote:
bumble wrote:
What if a person has a mixture of both social anxiety and ASD traits?
This. I don't think the two are at all mutually exclusive. In fact, in the "Social Thinking-Social Communication Profile" paper by Michelle Winner (and others) -- posted on this site about a month ago -- the authors argue that the more mild one's AS symptoms the greater their anxiety will likely be. They claim that this is because of the stronger "social radar" in individuals with mild AS. In this way mild AS burdens individuals with a unique -- and often distressing -- mixture of self-awareness and eccentric behavior.
Whether you want to call it "mild AS" or "shyness" or "Avoidant PD," it would not fair to overlook the inherent challenges of the condition.
Reading the paper, I had the impression that the SASC type (more or less the equivalent of Avoidant/Social Anxienty) was very different from the other types (while in the other types the problem was, in smaller or greater degree, a problem in "social radar", in SASC the problem seems more a question of hypersentivity and self-doubt):
Quote:
Those identified as SASC have a highly developed social radar; in fact you could argue they interpret the information they receive through their social radar with exaggeration. Rather than recognize that people have thoughts about each other in mostly benign ways, the SASC is often highly concerned about any thoughts another person is having, even if the SASC logically understands that he or she also routinely has small thoughts about others when around people.
This group, we hypothesize, is born neurologically to experience more anxiety and to intuitively doubt their social abilities. Their resistance to interacting in situations that make them uncomfortable can mean they appear to be more socially limited than they actually are.
When comfortable or in their social element (usually around family and close friends), they appear much like a NSC. However, when their social anxiety emerges, it appears to diminish their access to their social cognition and they appear much more like a WISC (the next group described).The huge shift in their social behavior from appearing comfortable around others to appearing highly uncomfortable and disconnected from others marks the SASC.
When feeling socially anxious, those who are in the SASC group over-‐focus on their feelings of anxiety and need to retreat from others, leading others to resist interacting with them. This then affirms the need of SASCs for their social anxiety: a catch-‐22.
This group, we hypothesize, is born neurologically to experience more anxiety and to intuitively doubt their social abilities. Their resistance to interacting in situations that make them uncomfortable can mean they appear to be more socially limited than they actually are.
When comfortable or in their social element (usually around family and close friends), they appear much like a NSC. However, when their social anxiety emerges, it appears to diminish their access to their social cognition and they appear much more like a WISC (the next group described).The huge shift in their social behavior from appearing comfortable around others to appearing highly uncomfortable and disconnected from others marks the SASC.
When feeling socially anxious, those who are in the SASC group over-‐focus on their feelings of anxiety and need to retreat from others, leading others to resist interacting with them. This then affirms the need of SASCs for their social anxiety: a catch-‐22.
What exactly is a social radar?
26 Apr 2011, 11:03 am
bumble wrote:
TPE2 wrote:
scribbler16 wrote:
bumble wrote:
What if a person has a mixture of both social anxiety and ASD traits?
This. I don't think the two are at all mutually exclusive. In fact, in the "Social Thinking-Social Communication Profile" paper by Michelle Winner (and others) -- posted on this site about a month ago -- the authors argue that the more mild one's AS symptoms the greater their anxiety will likely be. They claim that this is because of the stronger "social radar" in individuals with mild AS. In this way mild AS burdens individuals with a unique -- and often distressing -- mixture of self-awareness and eccentric behavior.
Whether you want to call it "mild AS" or "shyness" or "Avoidant PD," it would not fair to overlook the inherent challenges of the condition.
Reading the paper, I had the impression that the SASC type (more or less the equivalent of Avoidant/Social Anxienty) was very different from the other types (while in the other types the problem was, in smaller or greater degree, a problem in "social radar", in SASC the problem seems more a question of hypersentivity and self-doubt):
Quote:
Those identified as SASC have a highly developed social radar; in fact you could argue they interpret the information they receive through their social radar with exaggeration. Rather than recognize that people have thoughts about each other in mostly benign ways, the SASC is often highly concerned about any thoughts another person is having, even if the SASC logically understands that he or she also routinely has small thoughts about others when around people.
This group, we hypothesize, is born neurologically to experience more anxiety and to intuitively doubt their social abilities. Their resistance to interacting in situations that make them uncomfortable can mean they appear to be more socially limited than they actually are.
When comfortable or in their social element (usually around family and close friends), they appear much like a NSC. However, when their social anxiety emerges, it appears to diminish their access to their social cognition and they appear much more like a WISC (the next group described).The huge shift in their social behavior from appearing comfortable around others to appearing highly uncomfortable and disconnected from others marks the SASC.
When feeling socially anxious, those who are in the SASC group over-‐focus on their feelings of anxiety and need to retreat from others, leading others to resist interacting with them. This then affirms the need of SASCs for their social anxiety: a catch-‐22.
This group, we hypothesize, is born neurologically to experience more anxiety and to intuitively doubt their social abilities. Their resistance to interacting in situations that make them uncomfortable can mean they appear to be more socially limited than they actually are.
When comfortable or in their social element (usually around family and close friends), they appear much like a NSC. However, when their social anxiety emerges, it appears to diminish their access to their social cognition and they appear much more like a WISC (the next group described).The huge shift in their social behavior from appearing comfortable around others to appearing highly uncomfortable and disconnected from others marks the SASC.
When feeling socially anxious, those who are in the SASC group over-‐focus on their feelings of anxiety and need to retreat from others, leading others to resist interacting with them. This then affirms the need of SASCs for their social anxiety: a catch-‐22.
What exactly is a social radar?
http://www.socialthinking.com/images/st ... .26.10.pdf
Quote:
Social radar system ‐The different categories of the ST-‐SCP
A key factor in developing astute social thinking and related social skills is the ability to observe social contexts and how people share space within these contexts, including the nuances of their social interactions. Observation requires awareness of one’s surroundings and the people within them. We noticed that our students had different levels of awareness in their environment; logically, a person has to be aware of his or her environment before being able to actively make increasingly sophisticated observations within it. Winner would describe some of our students as being “aloof,” but fellow clinicians felt the concept of aloofness was too vague a description. Hence, Winner began to describe neurotypical social communicators as having a very active social radar system and our students’ differing levels of social functioning as representing, in part, different levels of social radar. The weaker the social radar, the more socially impaired the person.
A key factor in developing astute social thinking and related social skills is the ability to observe social contexts and how people share space within these contexts, including the nuances of their social interactions. Observation requires awareness of one’s surroundings and the people within them. We noticed that our students had different levels of awareness in their environment; logically, a person has to be aware of his or her environment before being able to actively make increasingly sophisticated observations within it. Winner would describe some of our students as being “aloof,” but fellow clinicians felt the concept of aloofness was too vague a description. Hence, Winner began to describe neurotypical social communicators as having a very active social radar system and our students’ differing levels of social functioning as representing, in part, different levels of social radar. The weaker the social radar, the more socially impaired the person.
26 Apr 2011, 11:21 am
Kon wrote:
Any opinions?
Shyness and AS: similarities and differences?
Am I wrong here? Am I off base? I think what I’m saying is fairly reasonable, and I wish people on the internet would stop calling themselves “Aspies” because they are introverts or experience a mild and very normal level of social awkwardness that would disappear if they stepped away from the computer for a few minutes. I’m actually glad Asperger’s is being dropped from the DSM-V and being merged into Autism Spectrum Disorder. This way, the people really afflicted with it will still qualify for an ASD diagnosis, and the shy, introverted nerds will no longer have an excuse for being a social shut-in and will actually maybe grow a pair and start…gasp! talking to girls…
Shyness and AS: similarities and differences?
Am I wrong here? Am I off base? I think what I’m saying is fairly reasonable, and I wish people on the internet would stop calling themselves “Aspies” because they are introverts or experience a mild and very normal level of social awkwardness that would disappear if they stepped away from the computer for a few minutes. I’m actually glad Asperger’s is being dropped from the DSM-V and being merged into Autism Spectrum Disorder. This way, the people really afflicted with it will still qualify for an ASD diagnosis, and the shy, introverted nerds will no longer have an excuse for being a social shut-in and will actually maybe grow a pair and start…gasp! talking to girls…
I just wanted to say that, as someone who is diagnosed with social anxiety (have not been officially tested for an ASD although I would like an assessment for it), that last paragraph is a little harsh on those who suffer from it (if I do indeed have the correct diagnosis) as social anxiety can be very disabling.
I am presently on disability for it as 'I am unable to cope with the social aspects of working and sudden change". This is what I was awarded my disability for. I have had problems socialising for all of my life and during my teens I desperately tried to tell various drs that "I cannot mix with people" and it was always ignored. I was badly bullied all the way through junior school, all the way through high school (although I changed high schools 3 times to get away from it, it would always start up again at the new school), at work (when I did work in my late teens although I was unable to hold down jobs) and also online for 8 years in my adulthood. Any friendships I did make at school were short lived and usually with another child who was being bullied also.
I am now 35 and I have not been able to work in over 12 years. I have had 3 or 4 real life relationships of the romantic variety (with men that I originally met on online dating sites) but again those were short lived. I have not made a friend though in 18 years now. The last friend I had I made when I was at college when I was 18 (I am 36 soon lol). For a while I made no friends but when my grades started coming back (I was an A average academically) people would come up to me and ask me for help with their assignments so I would make friends that way as I was able to talk to them about the work...I was very much in love with academics back then lol. When college finished the friendships ended and that was the last time I had a friend.
I took to trying to make friends online as I do not freeze and find myself unable to speak coherently in written text format...I am very talkative on the internet lol but still have struggled to find friendships, although I have attracted yet more bullying by a group of individuals who stalked me around a forum board, copy/pasted and saved my posts only to regurgitate and twist them later, posted libellous remarks about me and even went so far as to post a thread saying I should commit suicide whilst listing the best ways they thought were to do it.
I do not really know how to make friends and never did, any friendships I had I fell into by accident (ie they kept coming up and talking to me and calling me friend so...), I cannot initiate conversations with people and will always wait for them to initiate one with me. I struggle to keep conversations going unless it is about something I am interested in. If I do make friends I am unable to maintain the friendships as eventually they become too stressful for me. I cannot cope with the amount of socialisation they need (it exhausts me), I constantly have to seek reassurance as I cannot tell where I stand with them (ie i need to keep checking if they still like or love me as I can't feel it or sense it), I can also be highly gullible and have been lied to made a fool of many times because I am unable to sense what their intentions are unless its very obvious (Ie they are running at me with a knife and screaming or something at which point I think running would be the best response lol) and they eventually go away anyway because they get bored of me going on about the same thing over and over and over and over again and driving them mad lol. I also turn down social evenings in favour of staying in with my hobbies and people seem to think I do not like them...going out with someone is not really my way of saying 'I like you' as I am more likely to make them something and give it to them instead. In relationships I become a little obsessive with my partners (Not in a stalker way but in an overly adoring clingy way) and that drives them off. On line and in real life people have told me that I give out too much info, am obsessed with my hobbies, am too self absorbed, I repeat myself too much and generally annoy them.
It seems that regardless of whether I freeze with someone or let my personality out I am doomed either way. I cannot get it right even though I have tried very hard to.
Social anxiety can be a little more serious than just not having the balls to socialise. I have tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried...and each time it has failed.
swbluto
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26 Apr 2011, 11:48 am
Interesting papers so far. I wonder what the AQ distribution curve for "extreme introverts" would tend to be and how autistic individuals would score on Introversion scales? I get a feeling many of the posters here would probably be more accurately described by "introversion" instead of "autism".
26 Apr 2011, 11:56 am
Quote:
What exactly is a social radar?
http://www.socialthinking.com/images/st ... .26.10.pdf
Quote:
Social radar system ‐The different categories of the ST-‐SCP
A key factor in developing astute social thinking and related social skills is the ability to observe social contexts and how people share space within these contexts, including the nuances of their social interactions. Observation requires awareness of one’s surroundings and the people within them. We noticed that our students had different levels of awareness in their environment; logically, a person has to be aware of his or her environment before being able to actively make increasingly sophisticated observations within it. Winner would describe some of our students as being “aloof,” but fellow clinicians felt the concept of aloofness was too vague a description. Hence, Winner began to describe neurotypical social communicators as having a very active social radar system and our students’ differing levels of social functioning as representing, in part, different levels of social radar. The weaker the social radar, the more socially impaired the person.
[/quote]
A key factor in developing astute social thinking and related social skills is the ability to observe social contexts and how people share space within these contexts, including the nuances of their social interactions. Observation requires awareness of one’s surroundings and the people within them. We noticed that our students had different levels of awareness in their environment; logically, a person has to be aware of his or her environment before being able to actively make increasingly sophisticated observations within it. Winner would describe some of our students as being “aloof,” but fellow clinicians felt the concept of aloofness was too vague a description. Hence, Winner began to describe neurotypical social communicators as having a very active social radar system and our students’ differing levels of social functioning as representing, in part, different levels of social radar. The weaker the social radar, the more socially impaired the person.
Thank you
26 Apr 2011, 1:41 pm
swbluto wrote:
Interesting papers so far. I wonder what the AQ distribution curve for "extreme introverts" would tend to be and how autistic individuals would score on Introversion scales? I get a feeling many of the posters here would probably be more accurately described by "introversion" instead of "autism".
In these paper there is a study of correlations between the AQ (and his subscales) and the Big Five factors:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.paid.2004.04.022
Factor [ N ][ E ][ O ][ A ][ C ]
AQ [0.20**][-0.44***][-0.12][-0.42***][0.14]
Asp [0.37***][-0.44***][-0.12][-0.56***][-0.05]
Social skills [0.13][-0.55***][-0.14][-0.48***][-0.11]
Attention switching [0.25***][-0.29***][-0.02][-0.15*][0.15*]
Attention to detail [0.06][0.03][0.17*][0.03][0.35***]
Communication [0.21**][-0.34***][-0.15*][-0.41***][-0.18*]
Imagination [0.02][-0.30***][-0.32***][-0.38***][0.16*]
Social skills factor [0.06][-0.63***][-0.18*][-0.44***][0.00]
Patterns/details factor [0.06][0.00][0.13][-0.09][0.39***]
Communication/mindreading factor [0.33***][-0.15*][-0.16*][-0.25***][-0.20**]
Asp - Asperger syndrome screening scale
[Don't make any ideia if this table will look nice or if it will be illegible]
26 Apr 2011, 2:59 pm
Are you guys saying that one with social anxiety is not, or is less, autistic?
I ask because I see anxiety and social anxiety as a referenced as a common comorbidity. Also, the link I provided above said that diagnosed High Functioning Autistics and those with Asperger's experienced more anxiety, social anxiety and social phobia than their NT counterparts, and not only this, that this anxiety increased with age.
I am also curious because I seemed to have severe anxiety my whole life. This is both general, social and what I think might be anxiety in regards to "how the world works" (I'm not sure I understand that last point as mine is different then being anxious about classes ending at such and such a time, or whatever they said. My anxiety about the how the world works is on a much larger scale and I am understanding "how the world works" in a literal way in regads to everyday life and work.)
In regards to social anxiety, or social radar, I have had severe anxiety, I guess. But when I went to the first social worker it always felt like I was finding new things I never thought of to feel bad about. For example, without getting too detailed, she told me how some people saw me, or maybe it was how they felt, in regards to me not talking to them. I remember I became horrified. I also don't think I have this same "joy" in social interactions in general the way I've seen others talk about. I do want one or two, or a few friends though.
And another example, I have one true friend I can honestly say I've made by myself. And it is as an adult and I only have one friend now and basically most of my adult life.
So it is only when I had this one friend, with no social anxiety whatsoever, that another professional who heard about me, suggested we may want to look at the autistic spectrum, especially in regard to my varying obessions. This was because my friend was thinking something is wrong with me, but not in a bad person sort of way. She said she's never had someone misread as much as I have, vocalizing phrases (maybe it's stimming) and things like that. And not talking to her in a normal way, like normal relating conversations or something. But when she read some books things became easier.
So I can't explain myself fully here which is sort of frustrating and I'm getting tired of writing this actually.
So, I have had severe anxiety of various kinds and yet when my social anxiety goes away, I don't all of a sudden become normal. That's when I started getting actually getting feedback from someone.
Last edited by Jediscraps on 26 Apr 2011, 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
swbluto
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Joined: 26 Feb 2011
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26 Apr 2011, 4:23 pm
Morgana wrote:
swbluto wrote:
I get a feeling many of the posters here would probably be more accurately described by "introversion" instead of "autism".
Why?
Because I get the eerie feeling I would be more accurately described by "extreme introversion" than autism, and many other people here are [sarcasm]JUST LIKE ME![/sarcasm]
Notice, I didn't say "the majority", I just said many. "Many" could be as little as 10% or as great as 50% meaning the majority may still be authentically autistic. I suppose I *might* be autistic, but the explanation for my unusually high AQ score (35 on last retaking) might just be the right mixture between extreme introversion and self-deprecation as my "emotional ability" scores were above average (On the "Emotional Intelligence test"), which would be rather odd for someone with aspergers, methinks.
swbluto
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26 Apr 2011, 4:32 pm
TPE2 wrote:
swbluto wrote:
Interesting papers so far. I wonder what the AQ distribution curve for "extreme introverts" would tend to be and how autistic individuals would score on Introversion scales? I get a feeling many of the posters here would probably be more accurately described by "introversion" instead of "autism".
In these paper there is a study of correlations between the AQ (and his subscales) and the Big Five factors:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.paid.2004.04.022
Factor [ N ][ E ][ O ][ A ][ C ]
AQ [0.20**][-0.44***][-0.12][-0.42***][0.14]
Asp [0.37***][-0.44***][-0.12][-0.56***][-0.05]
Social skills [0.13][-0.55***][-0.14][-0.48***][-0.11]
Attention switching [0.25***][-0.29***][-0.02][-0.15*][0.15*]
Attention to detail [0.06][0.03][0.17*][0.03][0.35***]
Communication [0.21**][-0.34***][-0.15*][-0.41***][-0.18*]
Imagination [0.02][-0.30***][-0.32***][-0.38***][0.16*]
Social skills factor [0.06][-0.63***][-0.18*][-0.44***][0.00]
Patterns/details factor [0.06][0.00][0.13][-0.09][0.39***]
Communication/mindreading factor [0.33***][-0.15*][-0.16*][-0.25***][-0.20**]
Asp - Asperger syndrome screening scale
[Don't make any ideia if this table will look nice or if it will be illegible]
Thanks for the correlation tables, but I wonder if one could infer a "distribution curve" from that data? Like, if you were to take the top 5th percentile of those of the introversion trait, how would their AQ scores be distributed? An AQ average of ... 27 and sd of 7? If it's "that high and wide", than that might imply many of the people scoring highly on the AQ test are likely just extreme introverts, like me as 'extreme introverts' outnumber people with aspergers (Which have a rarity of 1 out of 250 individuals from my last look at wikipedia.)
26 Apr 2011, 5:08 pm
swbluto wrote:
Morgana wrote:
swbluto wrote:
I get a feeling many of the posters here would probably be more accurately described by "introversion" instead of "autism".
Why?
Because I get the eerie feeling I would be more accurately described by "extreme introversion" than autism, and many other people here are [sarcasm]JUST LIKE ME![/sarcasm]
Notice, I didn't say "the majority", I just said many. "Many" could be as little as 10% or as great as 50% meaning the majority may still be authentically autistic. I suppose I *might* be autistic, but the explanation for my unusually high AQ score (35 on last retaking) might just be the right mixture between extreme introversion and self-deprecation as my "emotional ability" scores were above average (On the "Emotional Intelligence test"), which would be rather odd for someone with aspergers, methinks.
What is the "Emotional Intelligence" test? That´s not the Empathy test (EQ), is it???
In answer to your question on your next post, according to what I´ve read, people who score 32 or above on the AQ test are supposedly 80% likely to be autistic. I don´t know the average score for a non-autistic, shy/introvert. Then again, there is always the possibility that many people diagnosed as "shy/introvert" are really undiagnosed people on the spectrum. As AS is so complicated, apparently it´s quite common to first be diagnosed with only one part of the syndrome, or a co-morbid: for instance, one may get a diagnosis of "Depression", or "Social Phobia" but it turns out that it´s only a part of the whole; later on, that person may get a diagnosis of ASD.
_________________
"death is the road to awe"
26 Apr 2011, 5:28 pm
swbluto wrote:
TPE2 wrote:
swbluto wrote:
Interesting papers so far. I wonder what the AQ distribution curve for "extreme introverts" would tend to be and how autistic individuals would score on Introversion scales? I get a feeling many of the posters here would probably be more accurately described by "introversion" instead of "autism".
In these paper there is a study of correlations between the AQ (and his subscales) and the Big Five factors:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.paid.2004.04.022
Factor [ N ][ E ][ O ][ A ][ C ]
AQ [0.20**][-0.44***][-0.12][-0.42***][0.14]
Asp [0.37***][-0.44***][-0.12][-0.56***][-0.05]
Social skills [0.13][-0.55***][-0.14][-0.48***][-0.11]
Attention switching [0.25***][-0.29***][-0.02][-0.15*][0.15*]
Attention to detail [0.06][0.03][0.17*][0.03][0.35***]
Communication [0.21**][-0.34***][-0.15*][-0.41***][-0.18*]
Imagination [0.02][-0.30***][-0.32***][-0.38***][0.16*]
Social skills factor [0.06][-0.63***][-0.18*][-0.44***][0.00]
Patterns/details factor [0.06][0.00][0.13][-0.09][0.39***]
Communication/mindreading factor [0.33***][-0.15*][-0.16*][-0.25***][-0.20**]
Asp - Asperger syndrome screening scale
[Don't make any ideia if this table will look nice or if it will be illegible]
Thanks for the correlation tables, but I wonder if one could infer a "distribution curve" from that data? Like, if you were to take the top 5th percentile of those of the introversion trait, how would their AQ scores be distributed? An AQ average of ... 27 and sd of 7? If it's "that high and wide", than that might imply many of the people scoring highly on the AQ test are likely just extreme introverts, like me as 'extreme introverts' outnumber people with aspergers (Which have a rarity of 1 out of 250 individuals from my last look at wikipedia.)
Well, if the Introversion/AQ is of 0.44, this mean that, if your introversion is 1standard-deviation above the average, your AQ in average will be 0.44 standard-deviations above average (well, I think that is more complex than that, but as simp0lified version this will pass).
If you are in the top 5th percentile of introversion, and if introversion follows a normal distribution, this mean that you are 1.645 standard-deviation above the average; then, the expected value of your AQ should be 0,724 SD above the average.
I have the idea that in general population the average AQ is 17 with an SD of 5.
Then, if the numbers above make sense, someone in the 5% top introversion will be an expected AQ of 17 + 0.724*5; something around 20-21 (I confess that I was expecting a bigger number before making the calculations).
For someone in the top 1% of introversion, this will mean that he is 2.326 SD more introvert than the average, than he will have an AQ of more 1.024 SD than the average - 22.
However, I am not much sure if this mine calculations make sense (specially I am not much sure about the average AQ 17, SD 5).
26 Apr 2011, 6:43 pm
Morgana wrote:
In answer to your question on your next post, according to what I´ve read, people who score 32 or above on the AQ test are supposedly 80% likely to be autistic.
I think that it is "80% of the autistic people are likely to score 32 or above on the AQ test"
Quote:
I don´t know the average score for a non-autistic, shy/introvert.
A possible approach could be to look to the results at schizoids.net, where most member are supposed to be non-autistic extremely introverts:
http://www.schizoids.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6595
Quote:
Then again, there is always the possibility that many people diagnosed as "shy/introvert" are really undiagnosed people on the spectrum.
The problem with this path is that we can easily enter in a circular discussion - after all, if we came to the conclusion that there are some people diagnosed with AS very similar to some people simply considered as shy and/or introvert, what we should conclude? That some "shy" people are being misdiagnosed as having AS, or that some AS people are remaining undiagnosed and consider as "shy"? Remember that "shy" and "Asperger's Syndrome" are not God-created categories, they are simply labels that we decide to give to some set of traits.
swbluto
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26 Apr 2011, 7:21 pm
Morgana wrote:
swbluto wrote:
Morgana wrote:
swbluto wrote:
I get a feeling many of the posters here would probably be more accurately described by "introversion" instead of "autism".
Why?
Because I get the eerie feeling I would be more accurately described by "extreme introversion" than autism, and many other people here are [sarcasm]JUST LIKE ME![/sarcasm]
Notice, I didn't say "the majority", I just said many. "Many" could be as little as 10% or as great as 50% meaning the majority may still be authentically autistic. I suppose I *might* be autistic, but the explanation for my unusually high AQ score (35 on last retaking) might just be the right mixture between extreme introversion and self-deprecation as my "emotional ability" scores were above average (On the "Emotional Intelligence test"), which would be rather odd for someone with aspergers, methinks.
What is the "Emotional Intelligence" test? That´s not the Empathy test (EQ), is it???
It's available at http://www.queendom.com/tests/access_pa ... gTest=1121. I don't really know how well the ability indices correlate with aspergers, so it could be possible that someone could be an actual aspie but also score above average, but I'm somewhat skeptical at this point. In my other "Aspergers Test Data and Analysis" thread, I've begun the search for a sorely-needed ability test for aspergers, as any reliable self-diagnosis (Or diagnosis, for that matter) should involve some element of 'objectivity'.
26 Apr 2011, 7:40 pm
Thinking more about the issue, perhaps the better way to differentiate between AS, shyness and introversion should be by the needs of the person; after all, the reason because we have medical diagnosis (and AS is supposed to be a medical diagnosis) is, in first place, to know how to "treat" the person (and "treate" is not the same thing as "cure").
Then, imagine three people:
- one needs predictably in his life and that other people communicate with him using unambiguous expressions
- other as a strong fear of failure and needs constant assurance that he does many good things and, even if he occasionally does something wrong, there is no problem
- and the other thinks that books and their own thoughts are much more interesting that "real" people, and needs that other people leave him alone closed in his room during long periods
These 3 traits can perfectly coexist in the same person, however they represent different needs, then should have different labels.
Returning to the AQ, perhaps the questions about "communication" (7,17,18,26,27,31,33,35,38,39) and "attention switching" (2,4,10,16,25,32,34,37,43,46) should be the key to differentiate between AS and "simple" introversion (according to the paper I cited before, they are both positively correlated with introversion at significant levels, but the correlation is lower than with the item "social skills").
