Sally-Anne test

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Both right ... I said it was an oldie.

I had heard that one before, but my answer was the same to first time.

The first time I read that, my answer was "Because she is a psychotic sociopath with no rhyme or reason to her actions?"

because our society is too used to thinking in movie scripts...

That explanation went over my head. I don't understand it.

As for the test itself, the first time (I think) I learned about it, the answer was included in its explanation. So it doesn't work for me anymore, as I already know the correct answer. I wish someone could test me with something similar in a controlled setting without giving me the answer. I am too eager to find the answers first for the ones I read on the Internet.

I just took a look. As a kid I probably would have failed that, but it seemed pretty clear in my present state of mind that if you don't know something of yours has been moved, you'd logically look in the last place you saw it.

Yes, and that is probably the point of the test. Most people would see things from Sally's point of view as well rather than just their own. I only saw it from my point of view, which is why I said she would look in the box.

Adult Aspies do have a ToM, they just process it differently and therefore take a longer time (which you don't always have in real life).

Aspies with high IQ give the same results as NTs in a ToM written test, they are just a bit slower. While those with lower IQ are not as good as NTs with the same IQ level - this because Aspies learn ToM as an academic subject, while NTs are intuitive on it, so that they can be intellectually dumb but still good at ToM tests.

Oddly enough I think I may have had theory of mind early. I have a memory from age 38 months approximately that involved knowing that my mother did not know something I knew. At that time I couldn't have expressed that knowledge, but I knew it all the same. That's a rudimentary theory of mind, several years early. It was worked out logically, though--so I can only imagine that I got my theory of mind early for the same reason I also did other things early, especially academic things--the typically faster development of a gifted kid. 'Course I had slower development in other areas, but logic wasn't one of them.

I wonder if there are multiple levels of theory of mind? It's just that when you look at TOM applications in adults, it's things like understanding how people can have different opinions than you and being able to put yourself in others' shoes, where as these test seem to measure your ability to understand that people do not know and see everything that you do. To me, these seem like two different levels. And it would explain why people here can understand the sally/anne tests and the like but still have trouble with mind-blindness.

Also, Callista's comment just made me think of my own experience. I must have been well into elementary school at the time, because I remember the event quite clearly. (I have a horrible memory when it comes to childhood events. I can scarcely remember middle school.) I just remember realizing one day very vividly that it didn't matter how much I showed someone or explained to them, sometimes people just won't see the same greatness in things (like books) that I dd. This was a very strange realization for me. I could understand that they had knowledge different from mine (that they didn't know about the book), but I assumed that if I could give them the same knowledge (tell them about the book/get them to read it) they would be able to see the greatness. I thought that if they didn't react the same way I did, it was because I wasn't explaining how awesome it was well enough. It never occurred to me before my "revelation" that they could see the same thing that I did but have a different reaction to it. This still seems to me like a TOM-failure. I couldn't understand that people could see things differently than I could. But at the same time I was aware that they could not know things I did. I would have passed the S/A, but still clearly demonstrated mind-blindness.

But even with this revelation, I think I have some issue with this. For instance, I know my mother likes turtles (the chocolate edible kind). They are one of her favorite things. But I still really worried about buying them for her for mother's day because I think they're gross and therefor had a hard time seeing them as a good gift. I felt like I was buying a bad gift because I wouldn't have wanted them despite knowing she would want them. I had to keep telling myself that I only felt uneasy because I didn't like them, and that she would like them because I've heard her say how much she likes them. So I think this is an example about logically understanding TOM (as would be implied by being able to understand Sally/Anne tests) but having difficulty applying it in a real-world situation.

I'm curious if anyone here has had a similar experiences. To me, this seems like a perfect example of TOM-failure, but it isn't like any TOM example I've read, so perhaps it's just a misinterpretation on my part. There needs to be more TOM information for adults. Or people over the age of 10, as the case may be.

I took it about a year ago, and my first instinct was the wrong answer. I said it (my wrong answer), then after about five or six seconds I realized it was wrong... whereas two or more years ago, I probably wouldn't have thought about it any further.

She was using irony. It said so in the title.

I don't see the word.

This is really interesting!

I just did a couple of ToM tests on my just 6 year old and he got them right! We did the Sally Anne one and I said so why didnt Sally think the marble was in Anne's box and he said because Sally didnt see her take it!

We suspect H has Aspergers, is this a test specifically for Autism or would it apply to Aspies as well?

has anyone considered a lot of this ToM stuff is just plain wrong?

if you can guess what is on someone's mind, that is theory of mind!

and given you are all here, using computers, you have a decent level of functioning in your life. if you've ever gotten in an argument with someone, then a few days later things cooled down and you got together with your friend and shared where you were coming from -- thats sharing theory of mind! and you'll know for next time when there's an argument, you'll have further insight into their theory of mind and can manage accordingly.

It applies to them both.