Naivety and being on the spectrum

Post Reply New Topic

No, I was thinking about just this one scenario I was writing about.



I think the complexity is dependent on how well a person is naturally skilled in that particular area of empathy.

It is not a complex or difficult process for most normal people. The necessary empathetic abilities come natural or intuitive to them in varying degrees. And usually, they don't know they how they do this because they don't need to think about recognising that people are real people like them to begin with. Keeping that in mind is something I still struggle with.

I imagine there are differences between autistic people concerning this particular topic as well.

I'm really curious about these differences now actually.

So, for me, this is complex because it is difficult and takes a lot of unnatural reasoning to remember that people are thinking, feeling creatures similar to me with lives similar to mine. I imagine knowing this is really important to come up with questions or morality though.

Because if you forget that people are similar to yourself, you wouldn't try to project your morals or priorities and your idea of "how you as a human person and thus other humans should perhaps feel about some things" onto other people or specifically onto the person that has just lied to you.

I subconscious do not feel like a person and I don't feel as if there are "others like me" and thus fail to intuitively project my understanding of the world onto "others like me"... you know like, hmm, I don't try projecting stuff about manners or moral behaviour onto my pet either because the pet isn't "like me" right?

Of course, I am perfectly capable to deduct that by all means, people are "like me". Though that's really an empty phrase if it comes from me and it's not intuitive or a thing I remember spontaneously. This might be simpler or "intuitive" for some others?

Despite that, I'm quite good at dealing with those people and (from experience) I can easily understand why they behave the way they do and join in on various kinds of social interaction (well, within the limits of my autistic-ness and ADHD). That's way more difficult for some other people if the typical reports of ASDs and some of the problems and thoughts written about on WP are an indication.

To present that in a simple but utterly unempathetic manner: There's nothing difficult (to me) about logically understanding "other people" (though this is a simplified statement). It's much like studying cats or other animals but simpler than that because I have a language in common with "people" to start with. Others on the spectrum might have different experience, I guess.

What I mean is when I try to say I don't understand something or I process things a particular way, it seems like most not-autistic people (not necessarily NTs) start translating what I say into something completely different or introduce irrelevant information to contradict me. It's very difficult for me to communicate my limitations without having to account for others' tendency to translate what I'm saying into something completely different.

Even the person I talk to who tends to get it the most (my therapist) goes off on weird tangents that I still don't understand.

Interesting...

I find that problem even among Autistics right here on WP, and though it doesn't seem to happen quite as often here, when it does happen the problem seems even worse than it does elsewhere. On average anyway.

For me, the problem of the appearance of naivety happened more frequently years ago than it does now. I know in my situation it stemmed from problems with reading body language, facial expressions and subtle verbal nuances. A lot of crap flew right over my head when I was young. It wasn't just an appearance of naivety, it was naivety.

Not much goes over my head anymore, but only because I've learned to spot a lot of things I used to miss.

Yes, it does happen among autistics. It is just not as common so I think mostly of how it happens so frequently with other people who are not autistic.

It's interesting to me, too. I wonder if using a different language than my native accounts for more endeavor and relative success when it comes to decipher meaning of posts. It's about focusing on the language and as a "byproduct" I may understand more than an average forum reader (I'm not bragging here, I may as well be worse when I read in my native). However, it's quite resource-intensive (draining) to me.

Oh, I agree with the frequency aspect. I was just adding that from what I've seen, the severity of it, when it does happen with other Autistics, tends to be more, I don't know, intense. (?)

Well, everybody really does that. Translating is a nice word.

In communication, you encode your message by means of use of verbal information/non-verbal information and based on a sort of individual "code" that's made up of your personal experiences, intellectual/cognitive abilities, cultural upbringing, priorities, (current) mood, individual quirks in sensory processing... that list goes on quite a bit.

And after you spoke your mind, the other person receives your encoded message of verbal and non-verbal information but decodes it by their individual "code" that's made up of their personal experiences, intellectual/cognitive abilities, cultural upbringing... so on.

Being more different to others causes lots of errors in that process. Not all are noticed because some aren't as huge.

When people are more alike, they have a similar (though probably never quite the same) "code" for decoding and encoding. If people are more different than alike, their "codes" used to encode and decode information received and send off during communication is (edit:) more different too.

From my observations, I think it comes down to overlooking the fact that malevolent people (smooth talkers and aggressive, group-approbation seekers) use language in a dishonest way. In the end what happens is that you can misjudge the intentions of the other person, and set yourself up perfectly for embarrassment.

Of course, this is only where intentionally dishonest people are concerned. Answering an honest question with an honest answer, no matter if the person asking is NT or not, is, logically, the thing to do... Trouble is, if you experience "mind blindness", you may not see through the intentions quickly enough to formulate an appropriate reaction (sometimes, the reaction may be to say nothing, or to brush the other person off and simply not respond - so as to not get trapped!)

Bottom line: the literal mind uses language to exchange information honestly, and I would even say, with a benevolent desire to inform. That's where the factual communication hits a snag: when the other person's use of language is disingenuous.

This is something that confuses me. On another forum a person accuses me of going fast on a non freeway because he wrote to me "You have no reason to go fast on a non freeway" and interpreted that as he was accusing me of speeding and he said "I didn't say that, I said you have no reason to go fast on a non freeway" but how can you not mean speeding if you say fast? Doesn't going fast mean to speed? I even asked another aspie how he would interpret that sentence and he said the same thing, that he is speeding. What do people say when you are going above the speed limit? That you are going too fast. Just a weird guy I ran into online. I wonder if he is one of those people that can say things that mean something even a literal person would know such as you call someone a twit, the person will say you called them stupid because it all has same meaning so does it really matter what word is used when you repeat what the person called you?


Shout
Holler
scream
Yell
Scold


All the same meaning above. "You have no reason to shout at people" The person then says he never yelled and the person says back he didn't say he yelled, he said he has no reason to shout at people. Yeah this is how stupid that guy was.

When I asked him what did he mean then by fast, he didn't answer.

Last edited by League_Girl on 29 Nov 2011, 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That's what has tripped me up throughout my life. I used to be honest and sincere to my own detriment, until I learned the hard way that I needed to just hold back information. Not necessarily lying just not volunteering information, not blabbing everything. Even that is hard to do because I wonder if what I am holding back might be useful to someone else. I still feel that need to share information just in case it might help someone, even if it might be to my own detriment.

I don't have trouble understanding how people can deliberately lie when there is a specific consequence to be avoided. That makes perfect sense to me. I have a harder time understanding how people can lie or twist the truth to manipulate another person into doing something. For instance, what use is it for a man to manipulate a naive woman into having sex with him...how could he enjoy that knowing it wasn't really her will to do it, knowing she didn't choose him of her own volition?

That's the quality of guile - and you'll find highly competitive environments rife with it. People begin to use communication as a weapon, rather than for benevolent purposes. It happens in business, politics, war, and of course, relationships (unfortunately). The literal mind is ill equipped to escape such cunning, and for this reason, one needs to train one's judgement so not to be so indiscriminate.

"The indiscriminate assumption of the general benevolence of people" might be a good alternate definition of naivety

Yeah, everybody does do that, and that's why they teach communications at college level. Sounds like you've studied it a bit. Everybody does it, but the way we (Autistics) do it is a lot different from "everybody." How we do it isn't quite as effective, and sometimes how we do it works dismally. There's huge difference in effectiveness. I agree most of us, Autistic or not, have to learn something about it, but we seem to have to learn a lot more than most.

Last edited by MrXxx on 29 Nov 2011, 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The wonders of people devoid of empathy...the guy doesn't even care enough to wonder if she wanted to or not, his goal is to put her into bed, he did, he's happy. For some really twisted people, it's even enjoyable to be able to think "ha, I'm awesome, she's only doing it because I guilted her into it, some people have no willpower...thank god, I do."

Yep, for at least a few men, it's really a matter of getting girls into bed, not whether or not they "really wanted to".



Indeed. Some people love the perceived power/influence they have over other people, and manipulation is one technique the more twisted people use to gain said power/influence.

Right and that's what I just can't fathom. I have learned to recognize it in people (I think) but I just don't understand how a person could enjoy that.

I never used to think of myself as naive, but I guess I am more naive than I realized.