Are we in fact, half breeds?

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Fuzzy
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23 Oct 2006, 2:25 am

hyperion wrote:

we actually are neandertal atavists. it seems when thousands of years ago cro magnon moved into europe and displaced neandertal they interbred. The neadertal genes were submerged.

It has been thoughly proven that there are no neandertal genes in humanity. If any cross breeding ever occured, it has not withstood time. Like hitler and George Washington, no decendants remain.

However, it is NOT unreasonable to assume that since early Cro-magnon man lived in the same environment as neandertal man, he would have many similar traits. If we have atavistic traits, it would be from there. Anything else is myth.

hyperion
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23 Oct 2006, 11:29 am

Fuzzy wrote:

hyperion wrote:

we actually are neandertal atavists. it seems when thousands of years ago cro magnon moved into europe and displaced neandertal they interbred. The neadertal genes were submerged.

I stand corrected

Wombat
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23 Oct 2006, 12:27 pm

Ah, but is the condition better or worse than "normal"?

Perhaps we are the "Vulcans", using logic more than emotion.

Evolution might be hit and miss. Too often it overshoots creating truly autistic people, but..

Do you really care about"keeping up with the Jones' ?"
Do you care about power or position?

Or would you rather see a fairer and more logical world?

Fuzzy
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23 Oct 2006, 5:08 pm

hyperion wrote:

I stand corrected

See, thats what I love about WP. People here will update their knowledge. I only hope when it is my turn, that I am rational enough to do the same.

You folks are great!

JulieArticuno
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26 Oct 2006, 10:23 am

SilentBedlam wrote:

Sure.

I assumed that autism was on a spectrum, with subjective bands of definition applied to it. Having read, and started some discussion here on whether the differences between Aspies and NT's would constitute enough difference to be classified as a new species, I wondered simply whether we were half breeds between two genetic groupings, ie - those that cause the autistic mind, and those that cause what we refer (somewhat misguidedly?) as neurotypicals.

Srry, mate, the biological definition of a species is that the male and female can cerate viable and fertile offspring. To be considered a new species, this all-important trait would have to not happen. E.G horses and donkreys produce mules, which do develop and gro into adultws, but are incapapable of breeding. Some story with tigos and ligers (lion/tiger, tiger/lion matings.) They are two separate species because their offspring are incapable of procreation.

As autistics and non-autistics are genetically capable pf producing viablre offspring who, upon reaching adyulthood, can breed, autisticsa and non-autistics are both members of the same species-just different in mind and perspective.

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26 Oct 2006, 11:50 am

Actually the biological definition of a species remains a matter of some controversy, although everybody recognizes that life on earth is separated into species. Reproductive isolation is not the whole story, since asexually reproducing organisms still have clearly recognizable species.

Among sexually reproducing organisms, many plants are obligatory self fertilizing; each individual only breeds with itself, but they still exist as recognizable species. Among vertebrates, wolves and coyotes have no genetic barrier to interbreeding, but their behavior normally prevents them from breeding with each other, so they remain distinct species.

The term hybrids can also apply to crossbreeds between different genetic groups within a species.

As to the evolutionary significance of aspergers, I think the essential fact is that nobody knows the future. At present, the genetic basis for aspergers is distributed through the overall human breeding population, so I don't think we could even be considered a subspecies.

Differences in reproductive behavior can give rise to new species, but it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that asperger's would be more accurately described as a deficiency in reproductive behavior.

Neanderthals and cro-magnons lived together in europe for thousands of years, so it seems farfetched to conclude that absolutely no interbreeding occurred during this period. I'm not an expert on this but as far as I know the conclusion that there are no neanderthal genes in modern humans is based on mitochondral DNA. This is highly significant, but not entirely conclusive. Mitochondrial DNA is inherited only from the female parent, and lines of mitochondrial DNA can be lost in small populations through genetic drift, much as a family name can disappear in a small town. If a male neanderthal bred with a female cro-magnon, the mitochondrial DNA of the offspring would be cro-magnon, but half the chromosomal genes would be neanderthal.

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rdos
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26 Oct 2006, 12:25 pm

Fuzzy wrote:

hyperion wrote:

we actually are neandertal atavists. it seems when thousands of years ago cro magnon moved into europe and displaced neandertal they interbred. The neadertal genes were submerged.

Fuzzy, you are poorly updated in the field. Few anthropolgist believe the pure Out-of-Africa hypothesis nowadays. It's mostly journalists and PC people that are pushing this impossible idea. Genetics of nuclear DNA clearly have disproved that all genetic material is from Africa. While it only takes *one* gene to disprove the OoA theory, it is basically impossible to prove it.

Fuzzy
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12 Nov 2006, 5:52 pm

rdos wrote:

Fuzzy, you are poorly updated in the field.

I quite agree!

rdos wrote:

Few anthropolgist believe the pure Out-of-Africa hypothesis nowadays.

I agree with them(and you). I think that actually, there was a multitude of subspecies evolving and interbreeding, finally producing modern man.

Eschew_Obfuscation
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13 Nov 2006, 12:09 am

Aspies are not a species or subspecies now, since they can crop up randomly in NT families, but may become one at some time in the future, since behavioral issues make it hard for aspies to find NT mates. But enough aspies simply don't breed that it's unlikely that they will ever out-breed and therefore replace NTs. Unless there's some sort of disaster or something kils NTs and not aspies.

BTW, I do know an instance of aspies breeding true. I don't know if that's the rule, but I have a friend (actually I have two friends, but I'm only talking about Frances here) who is an aspie with two aspie parents. I envy her a lot of the time, but that's really off topic.

rdos
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13 Nov 2006, 1:11 am

Eschew_Obfuscation wrote:

1. I have two Aspie-parents
2. Aspies can be a sub-species even if some are (seemingly) born to NT parents. Until those "NT" parents are diagnosed as NT this is just conjecture anyway.

1

ping-machine
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13 Nov 2006, 1:27 am

Wombat wrote:

Perhaps we are the "Vulcans", using logic more than emotion.

Perhaps. But certain episodes of Star Trek do make it known that Vulcan's are not without emotion. They are an extremely emotional race, and they prefer logic to control what would otherwise be an unbearable rush of emotion. Although in this way it is very much like some aspies.

As a reply to rdos' former comments, I myself have NT parents. But AS and autism is rarely found in isolation -- often there are other family members with certain traits, if not enough to warrant a label.

... And I have doubts that they are unconnected again because of the family connection.

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anbuend
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13 Nov 2006, 2:03 am

Quote:

There are no available convincing data that autism with vs. without overt peaks of ability, with vs. without overt speech, or overall autism vs. Asperger syndrome, differs at a genetic level. Even language abilities cannot be used to distinguish autism from Asperger syndrome, as written language experts are as representative of autism as oral language experts are representative of Asperger’s. Although attractive, the endophenotype explanation of differences within autistic cognitive profiles produced conflicting findings (Nurmi et al., 2003; Ma et al., 2005). Also, the search for anomalies in the genes implicated in dysphasia in available autistic samples was unsuccessful (Gauthier et al., 2003; MRC, 2001; Tager- Flusberg, Joseph, & Folstein, 2001; Volkmar, Lord, Bailey, Schultz, & Klin, 2004). The sole phenotypic distinction which is currently supported by data is that which separates primary (Pavone et al., 2004) or ‘‘essential’’ (Miles et al., 2005) autism, which is characterized by higher IQ, high heritability, low epilepsy rate, and absence of brain macroscopic abnormalities, vs. secondary (or ‘‘complex’’) autism, with higher incidence of mental retardation, epilepsy and brain abnormalities, and lower heritability.

That's a quote from Mottron et al, "Enhanced Perceptual Functioning In Autism". They then go on to speculate about what they think the real differences are, which have to do with differences in the way the brain specializes early in life, including after birth.

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Xuincherguixe
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13 Nov 2006, 9:06 am

Also, it seems that they can't even agree as to where the difference between high and low functioning is, nor what exactly each is.

MrSinister
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13 Nov 2006, 3:24 pm

ping-machine wrote:

Sounds familiar.

Both my parents are NTs, too, so it seems that I'm the odd one out in a family full of "normal" people...

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squier
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13 Nov 2006, 7:04 pm

SilentBedlam wrote:

This may be an obvious question, but having seen how much discussion there's been on "species differences", are we in fact just half breeds, with the profoundly autistic being the full-species?

Or are there three species? Or one?

i have three ideas to contribute, i would not say that it is a 'spiecies' per say, but i think that maybe, throughout, generations, the severity of the autism may decrease, because autism is a gene pattern. but i have also heard that autism is developed within the first year of life, so it may be caused by the amount of gene in the child, and the exposure to the... (sorry, i am just having trouble finding the right words) actoins that activate the genes ( anything that could turn into a symptom)

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13 Nov 2006, 7:27 pm

Well if you Aspies are a half breed new emerging species, then move over, because so are us ADHDers and all the rest of those other "sister" disorders. :wink:

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