I think I have HFA not Aspergers
28 Dec 2011, 7:13 pm
Flipping from the older criteria to the latest to prove points. Pick which one. New one or old?
It just all seems like a rough draft with text ready to be erased to implement a new code only to be erased again to replace the old values with new ones only to be erased again.
Life experience. Being around other aspies. When I was crying and couldn't speak. An aspie spoke up for me in defense. The person with aspergers did not have the right answer but he made me stop crying for trying to understand which spared me from a stay in the mental ward.
Verdandi
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28 Dec 2011, 7:17 pm
Also, this paper:
http://www.sacramentoasis.com/docs/8-22-03/as_&_hfa.pdf
Quote:
The diagnostic criteria in the DSM, which provide a differentiation between autism and Asperger's syndrome, have been examined by several research studies over the last five years. There has been some criticism from clinicians and research that the criteria do not identify the disorder Hans Asperger originally described. The four cases he described in his original paper would be diagnosed, according to DSM criteria, as having autism not Asperger's syndrome. (Miller and Ozonoff 1997). If one was to use the DSM criteria, Asperger's syndrome would be a very rare condition.
Research has also been conducted on whether delayed language in children with autism can accurately predict later clinical symptoms. Three studies have cast considerable doubt over the use of early language delay as a differential criterion between autism and Asperger's syndrome (Eisenmajer, Prior, Leekam, Wing, Ong, Gould and Welham 1998, Dickerson Mayes and Calhoun 2001 Manjiviona and Prior 1999). Any differences in language ability that are apparent in the pre-school years between children with autism and Asperger's syndrome has largely disappeared by early adolescence (Eisenmajer, Prior, Leekam, Wing, Ong, Gould and Welham 1998, Ozonoff, South and Miller 2000).
...
There has been research comparing the cognitive profile of adolescents with autism and Asperger's syndrome. The studies have examined the cognitive profile of what may be called 'High Functioning Autism', that is children with a diagnosis of autism with an
Intelligence Quotient in the normal range, i.e. above 70. The term High Functioning Autism has been used in the past to describe children who had the classic signs of autism in early childhood but as they developed, formal testing of their cognitive skills indicated a greater degree of intellectual ability with greater social and adaptive behaviour skills than are usual with children with autism. Their clinical outcome was better than expected. The cognitive abilities of this group of children were then compared to the cognitive profile of children with Asperger's syndrome, who did not have a history of early cognitive or language delay. The results of the research has not established a distinct and consistent profile for each group. Ehlers, Nyden, Gillberg, Dahlgren Sanberg, Dahlgren, Hjelmquist and Oden (1997) found that only a minority of each diagnostic group showed a characteristic profile.
...
The DSM criteria refer to children with Asperger's syndrome as having, in comparison to children with autism, no clinically significant delay in age-appropriate self-help skills and adaptive behaviour. Clinical experience indicates that parents, especially mothers of children and adolescents with Asperger's syndrome, often have to provide verbal reminders and advice regarding self-help and daily living skills. This can range from problems with dexterity affecting activities such as learning to tie shoelaces to reminders regarding personal hygiene, dress sense and time management. Clinicians have also recognised significant problems with adaptive behaviour, especially with regard to anger management, anxiety and mood. (Attwood 2002). Clinical experience and research has confirmed that in terms of the child's behavioural profile, children and adults with High Functioning Autism and Asperger's syndrome have a very similar presentation (Ozonoff, South, and Miller 2000). Both groups benefit from the same behavioural treatment programs.
...
Having reviewed the literature, we may be able to answer the question, is there a difference between Asperger's syndrome and High Functioning Autism? The reply is that the research and clinical experience would suggest that there is no clear evidence that they are different disorders. Their similarities are greater than their differences. We appear to be taking, particularly in Europe and Australia, a dimensional view of autism and Asperger' syndrome rather than a categorical approach. (Leekam, Libby, Wing Gould and Gillberg 2000). At present both terms can be used interchangeably in clinical practice.
Research has also been conducted on whether delayed language in children with autism can accurately predict later clinical symptoms. Three studies have cast considerable doubt over the use of early language delay as a differential criterion between autism and Asperger's syndrome (Eisenmajer, Prior, Leekam, Wing, Ong, Gould and Welham 1998, Dickerson Mayes and Calhoun 2001 Manjiviona and Prior 1999). Any differences in language ability that are apparent in the pre-school years between children with autism and Asperger's syndrome has largely disappeared by early adolescence (Eisenmajer, Prior, Leekam, Wing, Ong, Gould and Welham 1998, Ozonoff, South and Miller 2000).
...
There has been research comparing the cognitive profile of adolescents with autism and Asperger's syndrome. The studies have examined the cognitive profile of what may be called 'High Functioning Autism', that is children with a diagnosis of autism with an
Intelligence Quotient in the normal range, i.e. above 70. The term High Functioning Autism has been used in the past to describe children who had the classic signs of autism in early childhood but as they developed, formal testing of their cognitive skills indicated a greater degree of intellectual ability with greater social and adaptive behaviour skills than are usual with children with autism. Their clinical outcome was better than expected. The cognitive abilities of this group of children were then compared to the cognitive profile of children with Asperger's syndrome, who did not have a history of early cognitive or language delay. The results of the research has not established a distinct and consistent profile for each group. Ehlers, Nyden, Gillberg, Dahlgren Sanberg, Dahlgren, Hjelmquist and Oden (1997) found that only a minority of each diagnostic group showed a characteristic profile.
...
The DSM criteria refer to children with Asperger's syndrome as having, in comparison to children with autism, no clinically significant delay in age-appropriate self-help skills and adaptive behaviour. Clinical experience indicates that parents, especially mothers of children and adolescents with Asperger's syndrome, often have to provide verbal reminders and advice regarding self-help and daily living skills. This can range from problems with dexterity affecting activities such as learning to tie shoelaces to reminders regarding personal hygiene, dress sense and time management. Clinicians have also recognised significant problems with adaptive behaviour, especially with regard to anger management, anxiety and mood. (Attwood 2002). Clinical experience and research has confirmed that in terms of the child's behavioural profile, children and adults with High Functioning Autism and Asperger's syndrome have a very similar presentation (Ozonoff, South, and Miller 2000). Both groups benefit from the same behavioural treatment programs.
...
Having reviewed the literature, we may be able to answer the question, is there a difference between Asperger's syndrome and High Functioning Autism? The reply is that the research and clinical experience would suggest that there is no clear evidence that they are different disorders. Their similarities are greater than their differences. We appear to be taking, particularly in Europe and Australia, a dimensional view of autism and Asperger' syndrome rather than a categorical approach. (Leekam, Libby, Wing Gould and Gillberg 2000). At present both terms can be used interchangeably in clinical practice.
Verdandi
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28 Dec 2011, 7:23 pm
TheygoMew wrote:
Flipping from the older criteria to the latest to prove points. Pick which one. New one or old?
I don't understand what you're saying here. The new criteria exists because of how the old criteria has been applied. The reason I refer to the new criteria is because it cites research that basically says most people diagnosed with AS meet the criteria for autism under the DSM-IV. I didn't refer to the new criteria, however. The rationale for Asperger's Syndrome on the DSM-V website only refers to Asperger's Syndrome as it is defined in the DSM-IV because Asperger's Syndrome has no criteria in the DSM-V. So, how am I switching back and forth in a manner that is apparently inconsistent?
Quote:
It just all seems like a rough draft with text ready to be erased to implement a new code only to be erased again to replace the old values with new ones only to be erased again.
Life experience. Being around other aspies. When I was crying and couldn't speak. An aspie spoke up for me in defense. The person with aspergers did not have the right answer but he made me stop crying for trying to understand which spared me from a stay in the mental ward.
Life experience. Being around other aspies. When I was crying and couldn't speak. An aspie spoke up for me in defense. The person with aspergers did not have the right answer but he made me stop crying for trying to understand which spared me from a stay in the mental ward.
I don't understand what you are saying in these two paragraphs. Could you clarify them?
28 Dec 2011, 7:27 pm
Facts and science and quotations aside I think what this really gets down to is that people feel left out when comparing themselves with other people with Aspergers. We're all pretty much perfectionists to begin with with an attention to detail so we pick at the criteria and if we don't fit it we think it might be something else. We're also very literal too and our diagnosis must reflect every part of the way we are.
I've been there too and actually just say I have high functioning autism because it's better than thinking I'm intellectually inferior to other with AS. I ended up making my memory and my ability to learn worse because I wanted to get smarter.
I just feel more autistic because I had the classic symptoms. I was a happy bubbly baby, regressed by 2 year old, was slow to walk, speak, write and learn pretty much anything. There have been some basic needs issues that I've been almost embarrassed about having to deal with at the age I had to deal with them. I didn't even know when to wash my clothes or when one has to shower or bath.
I got low grades in school and basically the learnt the history of the world, science, math and anything else in the past three/four years.
I was good at art however and that probably kept me in the dark about my autism for so long because I was told artists were quiet, shy, and just a bit odd. I finally realised how different I was when I was 22.
Then again I can adapt really well once I get over the meltdown/shutdown/panic phase. For the past four days I've been social and while at times the usual issues come up I did pretty well. I'm tired today though and am avoiding people.
So in conclusion, the reason I think of myself as HFA is because I'm insecure. I don't know if anyone is like that or just really wants to be diagnosed because they think they fit it or even just take the label without a diagnosis. But I'm admitting to it that I feel inferior to a large percentage (may not be actual figure) of people with Asperger's. I gave myself brain damage by trying to medicate myself into a smarter person so I'm just going to give up. I'm a stuttering, disordered speech, forgetful, scientific wannabe but lets face it I'm an artist person whose symptoms closely fit that of someone on the autistic spectrum.
At least when it comes to ADHD I can just say I'm combined without having it approved by a doctor or without having a bunch of links and quotations saying how indistinguishable combined is from Inattentive or Hyperactive/Impulsive ADHD.
Perhaps we need ASD combined type?
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Verdandi
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28 Dec 2011, 7:55 pm
pensieve wrote:
Perhaps we need ASD combined type?
I think that's the intent in the DSM-V.
But seriously, I have my own reasons for why I prefer "autistic" over "Asperger's" or "Aspie," although I have my diagnosis down as AS because it was AS. I had a lot of trouble with adaptive skills as well, which is not unusual for AS, despite the criteria. Mostly, I'm convinced by what I've read that the two are nearly indistinguishable when compared as populations, although severity plays a role.
I think the association of AS with giftedness is overdone and overrated, and not particularly supported. Someone did link an article yesterday that indicated that autistic people in general tend to have cognitive strengths NTs do not.
I think I've talked perhaps way too much about how fraught I feel my "gifted" label is. It's only been in the past year that I've actually really started to believe it might possibly be true, and I'm still skeptical. My life achievements don't particularly reflect it. On some level I suspect my IQ to test lower now that my apparent vocabulary no longer outstrips my developmental level by approximately 12 years (that is, where it was at 6 years)
28 Dec 2011, 9:36 pm
Verdandi wrote:
TheygoMew wrote:
Flipping from the older criteria to the latest to prove points. Pick which one. New one or old?
I don't understand what you're saying here. The new criteria exists because of how the old criteria has been applied. The reason I refer to the new criteria is because it cites research that basically says most people diagnosed with AS meet the criteria for autism under the DSM-IV. I didn't refer to the new criteria, however. The rationale for Asperger's Syndrome on the DSM-V website only refers to Asperger's Syndrome as it is defined in the DSM-IV because Asperger's Syndrome has no criteria in the DSM-V. So, how am I switching back and forth in a manner that is apparently inconsistent?
Quote:
It just all seems like a rough draft with text ready to be erased to implement a new code only to be erased again to replace the old values with new ones only to be erased again.
Life experience. Being around other aspies. When I was crying and couldn't speak. An aspie spoke up for me in defense. The person with aspergers did not have the right answer but he made me stop crying for trying to understand which spared me from a stay in the mental ward.
Life experience. Being around other aspies. When I was crying and couldn't speak. An aspie spoke up for me in defense. The person with aspergers did not have the right answer but he made me stop crying for trying to understand which spared me from a stay in the mental ward.
I don't understand what you are saying in these two paragraphs. Could you clarify them?
Life experience. Being around other aspies. The aspies I've been around could relate to me over obsessive interests and talking about the same thing but found themselves scratching their head over my stims, reactions towards bright lights..sounds...colors..new environments leaving me speechless, freezing up in crowded places holding everyone else back and getting less patient, crying for hours over something that happened days, months, or years earlier depending on how my memory decides to bring something that I had missed to inform me, snapping pictures with my mind and how I'd see a bad picture pop up and end up crying over it not being able to verbalize it, pickyness with clothing to the point of leaving others scolding me for taking so long when at stores, reactions over routines changing and plans changing, pickyness with food, harsher response to being interrupted....etc.
Some of the things like routines changing, plans changing, pickyness with food the aspies could relate to in general but just not the harsher response.
If there were no distinctions. Parent enrolling autistic child into school. Child underneath it all is on the scale of aspergers. Placed in special ed because child is autistic. Think the child would thrive in that environment?
Aspergers is a bad word. Assburgers. Even though in my opinion there is difference between classic autism, hfa, aspergers (just listing three). I do think Aspergers would be better off classified as high functioning autism however there should be distinctions made to tailor to needs so children aren't lumped into the same severity as it may be detrimental towards their learning and overall performance.
If HFA were a spectrum, aspergers would be High Functioning Autism (H)
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28 Dec 2011, 10:48 pm
btbnnyr wrote:
Regardless of their specific diagnosis, I find that I relate more to people who call themselves "autistic" than people who call themselves "Aspie".
I think there's a solid group of us on here like that, though I do call myself an aspie.
I really can't relate to people at all when they're talking about how mild Asperger's always is (or usually is even in just themselves).
28 Dec 2011, 10:50 pm
This may or may not have been said, so sorry if it is a repeat.
Anyway, there is no category called "HFA" in the DSM. If you have Aspergers, PDDNOS, or high-functioning classic autism, then you can be informally considered HFA. I am assuming you meant high-functioning classic autism, though? Keep in mind that there are varying severity levels of Aspergers. Aspergers does not mean mild. There are many slightly mild Aspies right up to severe Aspies. The difference between Aspergers and Autism is that with autism (whether HF, MF, or LF), there MUST be a delay in language OR some other type of communication as indicated in the dsm: http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-autism.html If you don't have that, then you could be a non-mild Aspie.
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Verdandi
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29 Dec 2011, 1:07 am
TheygoMew wrote:
Life experience. Being around other aspies. The aspies I've been around could relate to me over obsessive interests and talking about the same thing but found themselves scratching their head over my stims, reactions towards bright lights..sounds...colors..new environments leaving me speechless, freezing up in crowded places holding everyone else back and getting less patient, crying for hours over something that happened days, months, or years earlier depending on how my memory decides to bring something that I had missed to inform me, snapping pictures with my mind and how I'd see a bad picture pop up and end up crying over it not being able to verbalize it, pickyness with clothing to the point of leaving others scolding me for taking so long when at stores, reactions over routines changing and plans changing, pickyness with food, harsher response to being interrupted....etc.
Some of the things like routines changing, plans changing, pickyness with food the aspies could relate to in general but just not the harsher response.
Some of the things like routines changing, plans changing, pickyness with food the aspies could relate to in general but just not the harsher response.
Okay, this makes a lot of sense, thanks.
This is one of the reasons I seem to be in that group btbnnyr and Tuttle posted about.
Quote:
If there were no distinctions. Parent enrolling autistic child into school. Child underneath it all is on the scale of aspergers. Placed in special ed because child is autistic. Think the child would thrive in that environment?
Well, the one year in school I was able to function I was in some kind of special ed (no one in the class had any intellectual disability, but no one in the class was functioning in mainstream schooling - I know for sure one student had ADHD), so I might not be the correct person to ask.
But, having one diagnosis doesn't mean that every child will be treated the same way with the same diagnosis. After all, that's the point of IEPs - to find out what will work best rather than simply offering the same solution to everyone.
Quote:
Aspergers is a bad word. Assburgers. Even though in my opinion there is difference between classic autism, hfa, aspergers (just listing three). I do think Aspergers would be better off classified as high functioning autism however there should be distinctions made to tailor to needs so children aren't lumped into the same severity as it may be detrimental towards their learning and overall performance.
If HFA were a spectrum, aspergers would be High Functioning Autism (H)
If HFA were a spectrum, aspergers would be High Functioning Autism (H)
The DSM-V has a dimensional severity scale in which each symptom is rated according to how much assistance is required to work around that symptom. I'm not sure that's the best way to define severity, but it is definitely a step beyond "everyone getting the same diagnosis".
Tuttle wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
Regardless of their specific diagnosis, I find that I relate more to people who call themselves "autistic" than people who call themselves "Aspie".
I think there's a solid group of us on here like that, though I do call myself an aspie.
I really can't relate to people at all when they're talking about how mild Asperger's always is (or usually is even in just themselves).
Yes, this is one reason why I prefer "autistic" over "Aspie" for myself. The other reason is that I actually really dislike the words "Aspie," "Asperger's," and "Aspergian."
29 Dec 2011, 1:35 am
Verdandi wrote:
pensieve wrote:
Perhaps we need ASD combined type?
I think that's the intent in the DSM-V.
But seriously, I have my own reasons for why I prefer "autistic" over "Asperger's" or "Aspie," although I have my diagnosis down as AS because it was AS. I had a lot of trouble with adaptive skills as well, which is not unusual for AS, despite the criteria. Mostly, I'm convinced by what I've read that the two are nearly indistinguishable when compared as populations, although severity plays a role.
I think the association of AS with giftedness is overdone and overrated, and not particularly supported. Someone did link an article yesterday that indicated that autistic people in general tend to have cognitive strengths NTs do not.
I think I've talked perhaps way too much about how fraught I feel my "gifted" label is. It's only been in the past year that I've actually really started to believe it might possibly be true, and I'm still skeptical. My life achievements don't particularly reflect it. On some level I suspect my IQ to test lower now that my apparent vocabulary no longer outstrips my developmental level by approximately 12 years (that is, where it was at 6 years)
I don't think it is the intent of the DSM-V. I read recently doctors want to limit the number of autism diagnoses. They are other reasons such as it being a broad diagnosis and it being almost indistinguishable from HFA. AS being merged into autistic disorder isn't like having a combined form of autism. A doctor could say I have combined ADHD by reading a journal I keep over a few weeks. Dr. Amen can choose from 6 types of ADHD which I don't usually agree with. But when the DSM V comes out will a doctor that diagnoses with the DSM IV still diagnose someone as Asperger's? We would do better with the label combined ASD because that's basically where this confusion comes from. You yourself said you have symptoms from all over the spectrum and that's what a lot of people don't understand. They think you're either severe or mild.
When someone diagnosed Inattentive ADHD thinks they might have some hyperactivity in them people usually tell them they could be combined and their worries are over. I hope ADHD doesn't change in the DSM V.
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Verdandi
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29 Dec 2011, 2:05 am
pensieve wrote:
I don't think it is the intent of the DSM-V. I read recently doctors want to limit the number of autism diagnoses. They are other reasons such as it being a broad diagnosis and it being almost indistinguishable from HFA. AS being merged into autistic disorder isn't like having a combined form of autism. A doctor could say I have combined ADHD by reading a journal I keep over a few weeks. Dr. Amen can choose from 6 types of ADHD which I don't usually agree with. But when the DSM V comes out will a doctor that diagnoses with the DSM IV still diagnose someone as Asperger's? We would do better with the label combined ASD because that's basically where this confusion comes from. You yourself said you have symptoms from all over the spectrum and that's what a lot of people don't understand. They think you're either severe or mild.
When someone diagnosed Inattentive ADHD thinks they might have some hyperactivity in them people usually tell them they could be combined and their worries are over. I hope ADHD doesn't change in the DSM V.
When someone diagnosed Inattentive ADHD thinks they might have some hyperactivity in them people usually tell them they could be combined and their worries are over. I hope ADHD doesn't change in the DSM V.
Oh, I thought you were joking about combined type, and I was joking back. I know it's not literally a combined type, but more specifically an attempt to standardize diagnoses and diagnostic procedures further and eliminate issues like some clinics having a diagnostic bias toward one label over the others.
ADHD is changing, to make it easier to diagnose adults and easier to diagnose adults as combined type - the number of required symptoms from each category is being reduced to four for adults, they're adding four more hyperactive/impulsive symptoms, and all of the symptoms are being reworded to be applicable to children and adults. There are going to be two categories of ADHD-PI as well - one with very few or no H/I symptoms (which I think is meant to be sluggish cognitive tempo) and one with nearly enough H/I symptoms to be diagnosed combined type.
29 Dec 2011, 3:23 am
Verdandi wrote:
pensieve wrote:
I don't think it is the intent of the DSM-V. I read recently doctors want to limit the number of autism diagnoses. They are other reasons such as it being a broad diagnosis and it being almost indistinguishable from HFA. AS being merged into autistic disorder isn't like having a combined form of autism. A doctor could say I have combined ADHD by reading a journal I keep over a few weeks. Dr. Amen can choose from 6 types of ADHD which I don't usually agree with. But when the DSM V comes out will a doctor that diagnoses with the DSM IV still diagnose someone as Asperger's? We would do better with the label combined ASD because that's basically where this confusion comes from. You yourself said you have symptoms from all over the spectrum and that's what a lot of people don't understand. They think you're either severe or mild.
When someone diagnosed Inattentive ADHD thinks they might have some hyperactivity in them people usually tell them they could be combined and their worries are over. I hope ADHD doesn't change in the DSM V.
When someone diagnosed Inattentive ADHD thinks they might have some hyperactivity in them people usually tell them they could be combined and their worries are over. I hope ADHD doesn't change in the DSM V.
Oh, I thought you were joking about combined type, and I was joking back. I know it's not literally a combined type, but more specifically an attempt to standardize diagnoses and diagnostic procedures further and eliminate issues like some clinics having a diagnostic bias toward one label over the others.
ADHD is changing, to make it easier to diagnose adults and easier to diagnose adults as combined type - the number of required symptoms from each category is being reduced to four for adults, they're adding four more hyperactive/impulsive symptoms, and all of the symptoms are being reworded to be applicable to children and adults. There are going to be two categories of ADHD-PI as well - one with very few or no H/I symptoms (which I think is meant to be sluggish cognitive tempo) and one with nearly enough H/I symptoms to be diagnosed combined type.
Well, that's good. I'm happy as long as the new criteria doesn't go backwards and leave adults out and also, make it hard for me to get my medication. It's good that SCT will finally be on the DSM.
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