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Invader
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23 Feb 2012, 3:10 am

A lot of the time I hear of kids being put on drugs just because they don't like school and don't want to work.

I would say that there is nothing wrong with those kids, and the people who drug them to force them to pay attention in school are just evil and sick.

But then there are other people who can't concentrate on stuff even when they really want to, I wouldn't say those people in particular had nothing wrong with them.



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23 Feb 2012, 3:27 am

Quote:
I was talking with this guy at the Bus stop


Yeah, I always take the opinions of people at the bus stop as gospel. You should too.


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23 Feb 2012, 3:34 am

Who_Am_I wrote:
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I was talking with this guy at the Bus stop

Exactly. :)



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23 Feb 2012, 4:06 am

In my experience many nts don't believe in the existence of mental illness and think the person having it is just lazy, needs to try harder or just act normal, and should just get over it. That or they are "drama queens".

That doesn't mean the mental illnesses aren't real though.



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23 Feb 2012, 5:33 am

I think it's real, but overdiagnosed. Both of my sons have/had it. The older one does fine now without meds. He ended up having to do fine without them back in school too because Ritalin, which was the drug of choice at the time, had too many side effects. My younger son does great on Vyvanse.

I believe it's overdiagnosed because anytime a kid has any problems in school, somebody is always saying "Oh, get him checked for ADHD". No matter what it is, that's what the schools suggest.

It is real, and treatable, but it's not as rampant as people tend to think. There are also degrees of it.


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23 Feb 2012, 6:08 am

I was told that *some* of my problems *might* be treatable with meds, and it's real enough that I am willing to try just about anything, so I'm starting Ritalin trials next week.

Maybe AD(H)D is over-focused by underpaid and overworked teachers, but my life is a big f*****g mess for *some* reason...



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23 Feb 2012, 6:32 am

:roll: . Of course ad(h)d is real. That question is actually rather insulting



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23 Feb 2012, 7:07 am

Not being able to do "boring" things even when you want to is a real problem, though. It would have been a problem even in prehistory--you couldn't have sat in hiding and waited for prey to come by; and you would have been daydreaming instead of watching out for wild plants for food. I mean, yeah, ADHD people do think better when they're outside and moving--well, anyway, I do--but it's a problem even outside the classroom. That disorganization isn't just a messy desk; it's forgetting to pay your bills and clean your kitchen and pick your kid up from day-care.

I agree that the milder cases can often be handled without meds--by compensating with organizing strategies, alarms, planners, that kind of thing. Or else, meds temporarily while you learn. But the more severe cases--including my own--probably require meds at some dose indefinitely. I'm pretty sure I will be able to reduce my dose, though, because of all the useful stuff I've been learning over the past few years. I'm going from 36 mg to 27 mg soon, and we'll see how that works out. Hopefully I'll be able to reduce it down to 18 mg or so eventually, after I've become better at making those adaptive organization-type behaviors automatic. Probably always be harder to focus on what I want to focus on, though. The only thing I know of to help with that is just learning to recognize and remove distractions.


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23 Feb 2012, 11:38 am

pensieve wrote:
Is Asperger's real?

Clue: both questions have the same answer.

I don't think it is poorly defined but people can relate their most subtlest of symptoms to it.

In my book disorder = significant level of impairment.

My ADHD is a real impairment. It takes me hours to get up in the morning. It makes me unwilling to do tasks that take a long time to do. It makes me shop and speak impulsively. It makes me jump from one topic to the other. It makes it hard for me to even watch TV, pay attention to someone speaking or even watch my favourite band live. It makes me obsess about a topic one hour and the next be over it. It makes it hard to read or comprehend what I'm reading. It makes doing math nearly impossible because of all the required steps. I actually do much better when I'm medicated. I even taught myself trigonometry, year 11 and 12 math and year 12 physics the first months I was taking it. I've only ever been able to learn music when on my medication too. I'm only able to write my long complex novel chapters when I'm on it and to stick with it.
I'm easily frustrated when not on my medication and really struggle to motivate myself to do things. I barely talk to people at all. When I'm going through my hyper cycle I say things that offend people without realising it. When I'm feeling inattentive I know I will offend people but don't feel bothered enough to change the way I say things to sound less offensive.
I barely spend 2 minutes on deciding what to wear, don't even brush my hair and really hate when I have to iron. I've got constant thought changing every couple of minutes, some negative, others just wild ideas.
I expend all my focus, motivation and energy all in one go when off medication too.

I really wish people would look more into ADHD (I'm talking more to the person that told you) than just making harsh comments about a disorder I've struggled with for my whole life, and I've only been recently diagnosed. I was dealing with it undiagnosed in college. I could barely comprehend my work without reading it over and over again, or takes notes or even remember to do my homework. And then those times I did do it I would forget to bring it in. Forgetfulness is one of the most irritating symptoms of ADHD for me. I've almost lost expensive cameras, I've locked myself out of my house and forgot my mobile phone as well. It even gets in the way with cooking because I hate cooking meals I've never had before and meltdown over it because I speed as quickly as I can through it and make mistakes and get angry at myself. And then people get angry at you when you forget to do something for them or they tell you what you said was pretty rude.
Oh man, you almost described my ADHD experience right-on. Said it better than I could've.



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23 Feb 2012, 2:29 pm

Mithos wrote:
I've been recently hearing and reading that it's just a made up disorder for pharmaceutical companies to milk money.


Standard memetics; take something you don't like, take a group of people you don't like, and invent some absurd and fanciful way in which the one are profiting from the other. You get bonus points if you can come up with a dramatic sounding title ("Big Pharma!") for the people.

The truth is mundane; there's rarely a conspiracy per se, but there are always large numbers of people very alert for the possibility to make money (or other capital) out of things that happen (such as a rise in ADHD diagnoses, or the death of an inexplicably popular third-rate singer) without regard to morals. Do the pharmaceutical companies milk money from ADHD treatments? Probably. You'd have to look at the numbers in detail to see how profitable it is for them. Will they act (in such ways as are in their power - a key phrase) to maintain this state of affairs, if it does make them lots of money? Probably. Did they dream the whole thing up in a sneaky bid to make money... no. Conspiracy theorists always go that extra mile - it can't just be evil people capitalising on trouble (as if that wasn't itself a very bad thing) - there's got to be some sinister grand design behind the whole lot.


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23 Feb 2012, 2:41 pm

Ambivalence wrote:
Mithos wrote:
I've been recently hearing and reading that it's just a made up disorder for pharmaceutical companies to milk money.


Standard memetics; take something you don't like, take a group of people you don't like, and invent some absurd and fanciful way in which the one are profiting from the other. You get bonus points if you can come up with a dramatic sounding title ("Big Pharma!") for the people.

The truth is mundane; there's rarely a conspiracy per se, but there are always large numbers of people very alert for the possibility to make money (or other capital) out of things that happen (such as a rise in ADHD diagnoses, or the death of an inexplicably popular third-rate singer) without regard to morals. Do the pharmaceutical companies milk money from ADHD treatments? Probably. You'd have to look at the numbers in detail to see how profitable it is for them. Will they act (in such ways as are in their power - a key phrase) to maintain this state of affairs, if it does make them lots of money? Probably. Did they dream the whole thing up in a sneaky bid to make money... no. Conspiracy theorists always go that extra mile - it can't just be evil people capitalising on trouble (as if that wasn't itself a very bad thing) - there's got to be some sinister grand design behind the whole lot.
Your post was very informative. Thank you.



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23 Feb 2012, 2:47 pm

EXPECIALLY wrote:
What I am about to say is something I totally disagree with on a purely emotional level, but there is research that indicates that cancer is one of nature's forms of population control and is linked to evolution.

Certainly it isn't made up or a conspiracy theory, because it's a real, detectable disease that kills people, but doctors and pharmaceutical companies do profit from it.

Many people have said that disease in general serves the same purpose and shouldn't be treated.

I'm inclined to believe they're right BUT I totally agree with treating cancer and other diseases, only because losing someone I love or my own life to something that can be treated and possibly cured isn't a choice I could make.

I agree - and the profit motive is an ever-present force in medicine these days. I was only pointing out that a profit motive does not itself render the problem invalid.



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23 Feb 2012, 3:11 pm

Callista wrote:
Not being able to do "boring" things even when you want to is a real problem, though. It would have been a problem even in prehistory--you couldn't have sat in hiding and waited for prey to come by; and you would have been daydreaming instead of watching out for wild plants for food. I mean, yeah, ADHD people do think better when they're outside and moving--well, anyway, I do--but it's a problem even outside the classroom. That disorganization isn't just a messy desk; it's forgetting to pay your bills and clean your kitchen and pick your kid up from day-care.

I agree that the milder cases can often be handled without meds--by compensating with organizing strategies, alarms, planners, that kind of thing. Or else, meds temporarily while you learn. But the more severe cases--including my own--probably require meds at some dose indefinitely. I'm pretty sure I will be able to reduce my dose, though, because of all the useful stuff I've been learning over the past few years. I'm going from 36 mg to 27 mg soon, and we'll see how that works out. Hopefully I'll be able to reduce it down to 18 mg or so eventually, after I've become better at making those adaptive organization-type behaviors automatic. Probably always be harder to focus on what I want to focus on, though. The only thing I know of to help with that is just learning to recognize and remove distractions.


There is a difference between the necessity of hunting, and the apparent obligation to do things just because someone else wants you to do them. One is a genuine need, the other is only something that you have been persuaded is a need. Most of the people diagnosed with ADD would probably have no problems chasing around after animals with a spear, but would be less than happy to be made to sit around sharpening someone else's spear, and they are perfectly right to be unhappy with such slavery.

Being the prisoner of a society which forces you to behave in a certain way if you want to live, does not mean that you SHOULD want to do those things, nor does it mean you should allow them to convince you that there is something wrong with you just so they can give you drugs which make you think the way they want you to, like a good little worker drone.

People who can't even concentrate on the things that they do want to do are the only ones with a legitimate problem. Anyone who is capable of focusing on their own interests (not other people's) does not have an attention defecit, they are just rightfully uninterested in having other people dictate how their limited time on earth is spent.

But of course any government-informed institution is going to try to convince everyone otherwise. They want you doing what they want, not what you want, so they call it a disorder.

BS.



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23 Feb 2012, 3:30 pm

Invader wrote:
Callista wrote:
Not being able to do "boring" things even when you want to is a real problem, though. It would have been a problem even in prehistory--you couldn't have sat in hiding and waited for prey to come by; and you would have been daydreaming instead of watching out for wild plants for food. I mean, yeah, ADHD people do think better when they're outside and moving--well, anyway, I do--but it's a problem even outside the classroom. That disorganization isn't just a messy desk; it's forgetting to pay your bills and clean your kitchen and pick your kid up from day-care.

I agree that the milder cases can often be handled without meds--by compensating with organizing strategies, alarms, planners, that kind of thing. Or else, meds temporarily while you learn. But the more severe cases--including my own--probably require meds at some dose indefinitely. I'm pretty sure I will be able to reduce my dose, though, because of all the useful stuff I've been learning over the past few years. I'm going from 36 mg to 27 mg soon, and we'll see how that works out. Hopefully I'll be able to reduce it down to 18 mg or so eventually, after I've become better at making those adaptive organization-type behaviors automatic. Probably always be harder to focus on what I want to focus on, though. The only thing I know of to help with that is just learning to recognize and remove distractions.


There is a difference between the necessity of hunting, and the apparent obligation to do things just because someone else wants you to do them. One is a genuine need, the other is only something that you have been persuaded is a need. Most of the people diagnosed with ADD would probably have no problems chasing around after animals with a spear, but would be less than happy to be made to sit around sharpening someone else's spear, and they are perfectly right to be unhappy with such slavery.


Ah, at first I thought: yes, I could do that! I liked playing swords-fights with sticks as kid and still can't say I grew out it.

But then I changed my mind. I imagine there's more to successful hunting than that. That's where the problem with ADHD starts again for most people, doesn't it.

Having to be quiet, being spontaneous but not mindlessly so, having to focus while taking off after speedy foot while coldly considering possible escape routes of said food (least your meal is horned or has sharp teeth and decides to pick a fight with you). Then actually getting it back - and having the motivation to return to the place where the rest of the soon-to-be-dinner is still located because it is too huge to transport it at once. Actually getting even small food home in the first place... jumping down a neatly looking waterfall one comes across to heed the impulse to take a cooling dip after such physical exhaustion could be far more alluring. (Is swimming with an empty stomach truly any dangerous?)

I'd opt for having a prehistoric servant to keep me alive! Which on second though would be quite boring because it would leave me with the part of patiently, quietly waiting and not suddenly interfering by jumping into action.


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23 Feb 2012, 8:47 pm

I'll believe something is "over-diagnosed" when scientists identify objective bio-markers for whatever condition we're talking about, and it's found that most people DXed with said condition do not have those bio-markers.

I'd also like a scientific, peer-reviewed "threshold" established to measure how many diagnoses of any given disorder are "allowed" to be made in any given population.

Until then, any talk of "over-diagnosing" or "under-diagnosing" is just pure fluff I have no intention of taking seriously.


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23 Feb 2012, 9:41 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
I'll believe something is "over-diagnosed" when scientists identify objective bio-markers for whatever condition we're talking about, and it's found that most people DXed with said condition do not have those bio-markers.

I'd also like a scientific, peer-reviewed "threshold" established to measure how many diagnoses of any given disorder are "allowed" to be made in any given population.

Until then, any talk of "over-diagnosing" or "under-diagnosing" is just pure fluff I have no intention of taking seriously.
Great post good sir!


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