Thinking in Pictures as Opposed to God Knows What Other Way
I am not going to tell you hos you think. However, your conclusion that language is your natural thought process and that imagery is acquired must be false. You were not born with language, you acquired it. Even if language is your predominant and automatic thought proccess, it can not be your original one. also, I have no idea how someone could later acquire the ability to visualize.
Thought is also a learned process. Intelligence is innate, but we learn to reason.
Anecdotal evidence: There are classes in logic. We learn math. We learn computer programming languages. These are all foreign to the basic human thought process and are completely different ways to think about the world. Physics is based in math and describes the world around us as succinctly as language, but requires different methods of thought.
In a more relatable method, cognitive behavioral therapy teaches us new ways to think.
I agree that the brain has to learn these behaviors, including language, but as we grow and learn to think, we form our thought patterns into language, it is how we relate to the world.
When I used the term native, I was using it in the computer sense. The computer, at it's root, uses binary. That is how it functions. Kind of like our brains, a collection of inter-connected switches that are on and off, but with a large bit count... however, each computer uses an operating system, a language. My mac, for instance, is a multiboot machine... the one kind of hardware runs MacOsX, windows 7, ubuntu...
So, when I say natively, since my system booted into a cognitive state, my thoughts are in words.
Again, I state, you cannot tell someone else how they process information. Which is precisely what is being done here.
Scientists, including some autistic spectrum individuals, don't understand the underlying functions of thoughts... and these people are experts... how can we claim to understand it all?
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Phonic
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I'm not autistic and almost all my everyday thoughts are verbal, the "image" is whatever I happen to be looking at at the time of thinking, regardless of subject.
So there's some insight, I'll elaborate if anyone wants.
Ok, I'll elaborate.
try this exercise: you want to go to the shops/mall, what comes to mind first? For you, it's probably an image of the shop and what you expect to happen there. Now say to yourself - without speaking outloud, use words in your head - "I'll go to the shops and do X and buy X", if you can do that - that's basically what all my thoughts are like, there's no film reel to go with it, it's all description, it's all a constant narrative, a book instead of a film.
Or can you actually not think words in your head at all? Is that impossible for you? you should know right away.
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Last edited by Phonic on 20 Mar 2012, 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not autistic and almost all my everyday thoughts are verbal, the "image" is whatever I happen to be looking at at the time of thinking, regardless of subject.
So there's some insight, I'll elaborate if anyone wants.
Please elaborate... thank you
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Phonic
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I'm not autistic and almost all my everyday thoughts are verbal, the "image" is whatever I happen to be looking at at the time of thinking, regardless of subject.
So there's some insight, I'll elaborate if anyone wants.
Please elaborate... thank you
Some more on it...
Think of autistic thought process ("picture thinking") as a movie or video, while "verbal thinking" is a book, there's a constant commentary, imagine walking around, going about your everyday busisess while wearing headphones that are playing a commentary on everything you do, constantly describing and commenting on your surroundings.
As I type these words I do not see anything other then this screen, and all I hear are the words I type being constantly repeated in my head, along with "throwaway" loose thoughts, random words that I hear, like what you would see as a random clip or still image.
But few people are 100% either way - though it sure seems like autistics have a tendency to be 100% a certain way, I do think in pictures, it's just confined to when I'm actively trying to, or when I'm fantasizing.
One interesting thing about my thinking is that I'm probably more verbal then most "NTs", since I scored unusually high in "verbal comprehension" in my IQ test.
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'not only has he hacked his intellect away from his feelings, but he has smashed his feelings and his capacity for judgment into smithereens'.
Phonic
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Yes, unless I have to debate something with myself, in which case there are two voices conversing, one in my own voice, and the second is voice is usually a contrarian viewpoint.
I call my contrarian voice Liz.
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'not only has he hacked his intellect away from his feelings, but he has smashed his feelings and his capacity for judgment into smithereens'.
I call my contrarian voice Liz.
Please don't take this as insulting... but I believe that either of those things... either my own voice, or two... would be unsettling in the extreme...
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Ok, I'll elaborate.
try this exercise: you want to go to the shops/mall, what comes to mind first? For you, it's probably an image of the shop and what you expect to happen there. Now say to yourself - without speaking outloud, use words in your head - "I'll go to the shops and do X and buy X", if you can do that - that's basically what all my thoughts are like, there's no film reel to go with it, it's all description, it's all a constant narrative, a book instead of a film.
Or can you actually not think words in your head at all? Is that impossible for you? you should know right away.
Impossible. Yes. The "book" analogy doesn't do a thing for me, because when I read, I see what's being described, not the words, even though they're right in front of my face. If I consciously SEE the words, the meaning is totally lost. I can't continue reading if that happens, and it does sometimes happen.
Words are representations of real things. I see what the words represent, not the words themselves. When I hear words, it's the same. Every thought in my head is visual. They are never verbal.
I believe this is the reason I'm usually very good at interpreting symbolism. Symbolism used in movies is almost always too obvious to me. Letters and words are just symbols. My brain also processes numbers the same way. I don't see the symbol "5." I see five tic marks on a graph. Every number is a tic on the line. When it comes to visual symbolism, I either see what the symbolism represents, or hear it (if it's a saying or proverb).
It isn't just visual either. It's auditory. I see what people say in visuals, but I also hear things while reading (not literally, but mentally).
The auditory part is usually musical. There is frequently an appropriate song for whatever topic is at hand. I hear those at the same time I see the visuals. I can't even imagine thinking any other way, and used to think everyone did until recently.
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btbnnyr
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One thing that always confused me was why so many people around me constantly talked things out to themselves and each other. Like if you are looking at a map deciding what route to take, and you talk about turn left take this road turn right with someone, or if you are at the computer store looking at specs of different computers, and you talk about the specs to compare them, or if you are assembling furniture, and you talk about fit this part into that part then screw it in, or if you are doing something on the computer, and you talk about open this window and click this, etc etc etc. I couldn't understand wtf was going on with almost eberryone around me, and I thought that these people were addicted to talking. Now, my new perspective is that people are using talking to think verbally and work things out a different way from the way that I use, which is all visual in all these cases. With the computer specs, I see the words as pictures, and it is very fast for me to compare specs, because one picture of one card of specs is obviously different from another picture of another card of specs, and it is obvious what the differences are in the pictures, the two pictures being as noticeably different as an apple and a pear, which you don't need to talk about to break down into constituent different details and compare.
Amongst the people who are always talking about eberrything, I have noticed that some are good at certain activities, like drawing and map-reading, and others are not and seem to be almost incapable of these functions, and my guess is that some of the talkers also think visually a lot, as a mix of visual and verbal, while others have difficulty with thinking visually or seeing details many at the same time or some other visual function. I have difficulty with thinking verbally quickly enough to keep up with many conversations, as the visuals need to be translated into words and ordered in some linear way, which they are not to begin with, since they are visuals.
Amongst the people who are always talking about eberrything, I have noticed that some are good at certain activities, like drawing and map-reading, and others are not and seem to be almost incapable of these functions, and my guess is that some of the talkers also think visually a lot, as a mix of visual and verbal, while others have difficulty with thinking visually or seeing details many at the same time or some other visual function. I have difficulty with thinking verbally quickly enough to keep up with many conversations, as the visuals need to be translated into words and ordered in some linear way, which they are not to begin with, since they are visuals.
I wonder what you think about this:
I see it all somewhat the same as you do, but I do talk things out too, to myself. That's confusing as hell for my family, because one second I'm babbling to myself, but the next I'm talking to one of them, but none of them can tell the difference between the two. I know my vocal inflection changes when I'm actually addressing them, but they've never been able to pick up on it. I guess that's because they're all on the spectrum too.
I just wonder why even though I do visualize everything, I also need to vocalize almost all of it.
The only reason I can think of is maybe it's because I've got so much visual stuff going on it can be overwhelming and hard to make sense of. Talking is linear to me.
Am I just "putting my ducks in a row?"
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I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...
Hmm. Sounds like a possible semantics thing going on there. I think you're meaning one thing, but it's being interpreted a bit differently.
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I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...
btbnnyr
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Amongst the people who are always talking about eberrything, I have noticed that some are good at certain activities, like drawing and map-reading, and others are not and seem to be almost incapable of these functions, and my guess is that some of the talkers also think visually a lot, as a mix of visual and verbal, while others have difficulty with thinking visually or seeing details many at the same time or some other visual function. I have difficulty with thinking verbally quickly enough to keep up with many conversations, as the visuals need to be translated into words and ordered in some linear way, which they are not to begin with, since they are visuals.
I wonder what you think about this:
I see it all somewhat the same as you do, but I do talk things out too, to myself. That's confusing as hell for my family, because one second I'm babbling to myself, but the next I'm talking to one of them, but none of them can tell the difference between the two. I know my vocal inflection changes when I'm actually addressing them, but they've never been able to pick up on it. I guess that's because they're all on the spectrum too.
I just wonder why even though I do visualize everything, I also need to vocalize almost all of it.
The only reason I can think of is maybe it's because I've got so much visual stuff going on it can be overwhelming and hard to make sense of. Talking is linear to me.
Am I just "putting my ducks in a row?"
I verbalize things inside my head in order to have a supply of ready-made pies that I can serve to others when we need to talk about the topic later. I can't bake the pies fast enough in real-time, so I've gotta have them ready ahead of time. Sometimes, what I am saying in my head, I will also say with my mouth, and that eggsplains most of my talking to myself. Is this what you are doing?
Verbalizing really helps me understand things in a different way from visualizing, but it's hard to verbalize what that way is. I had almost zero thoughts in words in my head until a couple of years ago, when I started being able to turn on a verbal stream of thought, and it has definitely helped me a lot in all kinds of communications, including spoken during real-time interactions. This was part of my problem growing up, I think, that I had no verbal thoughts in my head, so I did not speak anything to others or think of communicating at all.
When I am doing something engaging but without words, e.g. photoshop or experiment, I never have any internal narration to go along with what I doing. The verbal stream is off by default until turned on for use. I read that children start talking to themselves when they play at a young age, and I never did that. iMother tells me that I played in complete silence.
Wouldn't dreaming just be thinking while disconnected from reality, with a bit else on top of it?
Yes, I guess, there are various theories on what causes dreaming and I have read that one is that the brain is resting but still producing "nonsense" because it never stops working all together, in effect it is definitely "thinking". Or with other theories too, the process of thought would be necessary in order to connect to the subconscious or with spirit guides and so on.
Then both dreaming and thinking mostly in images might be the same brain process as imagining. I am very curious to know if the same parts of the brain are being used when dreaming, when thinking in images and when imagining something. In all 3 cases we are seeing without using our eyes basically.
I've a new theory on this since the last threads on this subject.
Almost everyone can think in pictures. Everyone did think in pictures when they were young and before spoken or written language developed.
As you mature and master spoken language, you replace these pictures with words. As you master written language you may recall and store the written word. You no longer need to recall the picture or say the word. This is good, it is efficient. You can of course recall what your living room or what the Mona Lisa looks like, but when you are writing a paper or talking to someone your mind is mostly in tune with your output.
The autistic difference for some is that this progression doesn't happen, the pictures remain, alongside or instead of the words. The problem (and benefit) is that these pictures are slower to work with than words and are very distracting. You'll make all sorts of associations from the picture you recall, rather than moving on linearly to the next thought or idea.
Eg. Asked the question do I like dogs? I might my stock images of my memorable dogs, where I lived in my snapshot, where I walked them, leading to more images and potentially more distractions. Lots of recall, but all irrelevant to a straightforward question. If I'm lucky I might get back to the question and respond. In the real world two minutes may have passed.
Jason
btbnnyr
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For me, thinking in pictures is just holding lots of visual details in your head at the same time, like on the "visual-spatial sketchpad", and I think that some people do this more easily than others, possibly because this is the way they perceive the external world eggswell, like photographs with lots of details all seen at the same time. Instead of ordering and making sense in words, it is easier to flip through lots of these pictures or play videos for me.
I'm not good at vague verbal labels to things in these pictures. It is much easier to describe the individual details of the pictures instead of generalize into something something that fits with a one-word label.
I can really only describe my own with any degree of accuracy though.
I think in thought. It is not words, it is not pictures, it is understanding. If it is practical, I can call up images, real or imaginative, or even video, I can speak aloud in my head, or replay audio I've heard..I can feel the sensation I've felt or imagine ones I haven't, basically, I "can" think with the senses...but that is not default. I think in understanding, in knowing. I think in something deep and maybe a bit mysterious in its elusiveness to describe.
Yep. I call this "conceptual" thinking, and it is the only way I am able to think. I am completely unable to produce mental representations of any kind. I have no "inner life" or "inner experience" aside from the invisible, inaudible, imperceptible-but-through-intellect "concepts" that occupy my consciousness. But they're ghosts. They have no form.
"Invader", you sound terribly confused and ignorant.
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