Dr. Thomas Szasz

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Yuugiri
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04 Feb 2013, 9:50 am

Raziel wrote:

Painkillers don't treat the cause either, they are just putting chemicals into my brain.

That's treating the cause.

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nessa238
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04 Feb 2013, 9:57 am

whirlingmind wrote:

Fair enough if you don't see what I mean, we all have different ways of looking at things. I thought I was making what was being debated clearer by asking for more explicit meaning so I could accurately respond (I really do heavily follow the Aspie trait of needing the details correct and with our potential for misunderstanding meanings as well, I wanted to be sure) and that it would help the debate if we were on the same page so to speak. I just wanted clarification of what exactly you were saying, I wasn't limiting definition. No worries, if we having different ways of understanding definitions and how they apply we probably won't get get any further in this debate at least! :wink:

I suppose to me it's self-explanatory and having to explain my point in more detail implies to me that you just aren't getting the point I'm making full stop so I'm not on receptive ground so to speak, so further explanation doesn't seem worth it

I have got to the point where if I can talk to friends and have them understand exactly the point I'm making very easily, I've realised the problem of understanding/definition isn't at my end

This is probably why I understand and agree with Thomas Szasz's ideas whereas many don't ie I'm more of a Thomas Szasz type of person than a mainstream type one

and I prefer it like that

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04 Feb 2013, 10:04 am

Yuugiri wrote:

Raziel wrote:

Painkillers don't treat the cause either, they are just putting chemicals into my brain.

That's treating the cause.

If I have a headache, because I didn't drink too much, painkillers will just take away the headache, but like most pains this is just a warning sign and doesn't take away the "dehitration". Treating the cause would be in this case to drink something.
That's how I understand it.

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Raziel
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04 Feb 2013, 10:09 am

nessa238 wrote:

This is probably why I understand and agree with Thomas Szasz's ideas whereas many don't ie I'm more of a Thomas Szasz type of person than a mainstream type one

I'm not totally at his side, but at some points and he has very interesting ideas.
I kind of like his argumentation and the modern psychiatry harmed me very badly actually and caused me more symptomse (due to the stress) than it cured/treated.

I also believe that it's my choice how I want to live my life and that no psychiatrist should has the right to treat me against my will.

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Yuugiri
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04 Feb 2013, 10:14 am

Raziel wrote:

All right, I think I misunderstood something about the nature of headaches when I responded to you before. Let me rephrase that.

Painkillers do not treat the cause simply because a headache is never a cause of anything. However, in some cases, the cause is untreatable. For instance, a factor in the frequency one receives migraines is genetics. There is no way to treat that cause, in which case, the only approach that makes sense is to treat the symptoms.

I apologize for my earlier mistake, and thank you. I've learned something new today. C:

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04 Feb 2013, 10:19 am

Raziel wrote:

Ann2011 wrote:

Raziel wrote:

I can't change fully my feelings, but my behaviour.

If I was in constant physical pain I might be able to change my behaviour so that I don't scream as much. This would be great for other people, but I would still be in pain. If pain killers were available, I would be eager to take them and then I wouldn't feel the need to scream in the first place.
Modifying behaviour is treating the symptoms, not the cause.

Painkillers don't treat the cause either, they are just putting chemicals into my brain.
If I'm not able to function in this society, it doesn't help me in the first place.
It doesn't mean that this is the only thing you can do, but it showes that there have to be distinguished between feelings and behaviour.

Putting chemicals into your brain is treating the cause. Like putting water into your body hydrates it. If there is a chemical imbalance in my brain then putting them back in balance with medication fixes the problem.

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04 Feb 2013, 10:23 am

Ann2011 wrote:

Have you seen this chemical imbalance?

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Yuugiri
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04 Feb 2013, 10:30 am

Raziel wrote:

Have you seen this chemical imbalance?

Again, this is why neuropsychology is important. "Chemical imbalances" are still just a hypothesis (and kind of misleading). Even so, you'd kind of have to be purposely obtuse to deny that a good number of mental disorders stem from the configuration of one's brain.

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Ann2011
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04 Feb 2013, 10:32 am

Raziel wrote:

Ann2011 wrote:

Have you seen this chemical imbalance?

I'm not sure what you're getting at? Do you mean that there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance? There are chemicals at work in the brain, eg. Serotonin, Melatonin, Dopamine. I'm no scientist, but I don't think they are making this stuff up.

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04 Feb 2013, 10:33 am

Yuugiri wrote:

Raziel wrote:

Have you seen this chemical imbalance?

Well even the brain consists of a lot more than "just" chemical imbalance like brainstructure and so on and in this case meds wouldn't treat the cause.
Also this stuff has in a lot of cases strong side effects.

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Raziel
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04 Feb 2013, 10:36 am

Ann2011 wrote:

Raziel wrote:

Ann2011 wrote:

Have you seen this chemical imbalance?

I'm just carefull that's all.
I can't say what's going on in my brain and I belive that there are comming a whole bunch of factors together who explain my disorders. How I deal with stress, my brainstructure, my environment and so on and I can't tell in my case which are the most important one. So I belive that's a bit black and white thinking just to believe to put more chemicals in my brain treat any cause, even if they help upto some degree, but that's me.

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04 Feb 2013, 10:41 am

Raziel wrote:

It's good to be careful, and if you haven't found any medications that have worked for you, that's one thing.

It's another to say medication as a whole is bad, especially since there's so much evidence of them working for a lot of people. I don't know if that's what you're saying, but I thought I'd address it just in case.

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Ann2011
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04 Feb 2013, 10:43 am

Raziel wrote:

Ann2011 wrote:

Raziel wrote:

Ann2011 wrote:

Have you seen this chemical imbalance?

Well, I have to agree with you that behaviour can be controlled by will power (at least to a certain extent.) It was an important realization for me when I discovered that thinking something doesn't make it real. Acting on the thoughts is not a step that you have to take.
And you're right, everyone's experience is different and it is a personal journey.

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04 Feb 2013, 10:48 am

Yuugiri wrote:

Raziel wrote:

No, I'm not saying that.
I had huge side effects in the past, that's right. But I'm also taking agomelatonine and melatonin at the moment and want to stard lithium after my operation. But I don't want to take more.
But I don't believe that meds alone "cure" you, there is so much more to diagnoses of the DSM. Also meds can't cure everything. I had dyslexia as a child, how do you want to treat that with drugs? You have to teach those children to read and write and even in cases where chemical imbalance might play a major role, I don't believe just giving drugs helps alone.
I especially don't believe in giving five or more psychiatric drugs at once and there is no real evidence that such a "coctail" out of different drugs helps.

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Raziel
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04 Feb 2013, 11:10 am

But I also wanted to make clear that I have something against the idea that all mental disorders are "just" chemical imbalances. That's just not true. When I develop symptomse because I live in an environment that's in any way harmfull for me, than those symptoms aren't chemical, but because of me being not able to function in that environment.
I also don't like too much the dx of personality disorders. Especially those are highly arbitrary.

So I think psychiatric disorders is a very mixed group out of "disorders".

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Yuugiri
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04 Feb 2013, 11:14 am

Raziel wrote:

But I don't believe that meds alone "cure" you

Which is why most psychiatrists/psychologists suggest a combination of therapy and the right meds.

I'm mostly thinking of disorders like MDD, schizophrenia, etc., though, not so much dyslexia and autism, so we agree there, I believe.

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