So much anger!

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MjrMajorMajor
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01 May 2013, 2:33 pm

littlebee wrote:

MjrMajorMajor wrote:

littlebee wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

The OP makes a good observation.
There is indeed alot of "nt-bashing" here.
Some of it is healthy, and some of it not IMHO.

In the short run "nt-bashing" is harmless, and even helpful.

It is actually harmful in the short or long run because that particular dichotomy is way off base, and the encapsulated thinking behind it is causing all kinds of suffering, not meaning for so called 'nt's' but for the aspies who are thinking in such a simplistic manner and encouraging others to do..

In terms of people venting anger on line---it could be helpful or not, but this is not what I am talking about at all but rather the naivete and ignorance behind making this particular dichotomy, but not all dichotomies.

I see that division as a process. That separation is a way to identify and digest what the differences are that are unique to being on the spectrum. Once people have a solid handling on those issues, they can branch out into a different/wider mindset. A drawing in and circling the wagons temporarily to explore what is pertinent to this select group. It's not permanent, and it's not a matter of ignorance as much as learning.

I see it very differently and see some kind of magical thinking in your assessment..

(snip rest of my previous message).

I am assuming you and others understand what I meant when I referred to what I see as magical thinking in your message, but just in case you do not-----there is no evidence at all that I know of which supports your premise that people will grow out of using this kind of simplistic black and white dichotomy to buffer emotional pain, make all kinds of simplistic justifications and vent rage, and I have no idea where you got this idea from, so I assume you just made it up. Actually it is easy to observe by looking at both oneself and others that once various conclusions are formed, this automatically, or, better put, mechanically, plays into the habitual way of processing data and reinforces it, and this is especially likely to occur if others around oneself tend to reinforce a certain kind of thinking and this way of group think becomes connected to the bonding process which people so crave.

As far as the rudeness of referring to so-called nt's as this or that, personally I do not have a problem with that kind of language per se, as adults should be able to handle it, but the condoning and supporting of this kind of very simplistic thinking behind making this particular dichotomy and even touting it as helpful to suffering people is why I have responded to this thread.

I suppose another idea in your message which verges on magical thinking is that ignorance about reality will automatically undue itself. That makes no sense. I see you just pretending it is a form of learning.

I do understand a genuine caring and altruistic motivation is behind your response, and I do appreciate that and also the eloquent way you express yourself. Actually, it just now occurs to me that another form of magical thinking is to assume that such a good feeling and love for ones brother will automatically translate into the mind being intelligent. And no, I am not saying that you are not intelligent, but that all of us can become more intelligent, and this is the function of learning.

This is not meant to be taken personally.. It is just inquiry, and I, too, am approaching out of an altruistic motivation..

Relating to people growing out of a set mentality, maybe it is magical thinking on my part. I am referring to more of a majority vs everyone in this, and to me this issue seems more prevalent in younger posters. Maybe it's a TOM issue, and I'm not seeing it clearly. I do think challenging or questioning beliefs is very beneficial, but I'm not going to condemn anyone that thinks differently than I do (to a point, of course.) The idea of it being a temporary vs fixed point came from seeing the a difference in the postings of older vs younger members, and what has been my own personal experience for myself.

Anomiel
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01 May 2013, 3:56 pm

You're going to see the same anger from any mistreated minority. Telling them to shut up with the "labeling" or complaining about NTs (which is a shortcut for the-majority-of-society-and-it's-norms) is not going to fix that we are biologically different in many real ways, the labels we have are not just words. Let people use whatever labels they are comfortable with to explain these differences. Not understanding that we actually are different is ignorant, and is like the tired argument of "I don't see skincolor" which comes from a good place but invalidates the experiences and identities of people that are outside the "norm".

Excessive hatred, prejudice and clumsy use of language while complaining could be discussed. But the anger is valid. Don't pretend it's not.

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01 May 2013, 4:26 pm

I don't care enough about what other people think to be angry at them for any extended lengths of time.

Strong emotions use up entirely too much of my energy, and most humans aren't worth that kind of investment.

I'm cool with NTs, and they are more than welcome to continue to dominate the planet; I'm content to sit back, crack open a beer, and be amused at their antics.

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littlebee
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01 May 2013, 4:48 pm

Anomiel wrote:

First, to MjrMajorMajor, thanks for your response....will comment later.

To Anomiel, it is not a matter of letting people use whatever labels they want (and you seem to be implying that I can even stop them) but rather inquiring into how certain kinds of labeling affects brain function, and it is not always in such a good way. Anyway I am not saying people should not label themselves as autistic or whatever, but suggesting to look very carefully at the aspie-nt dichotomy, as I think it is counter productive and really quite harmful, not to so-called nt's so much. but rather to aspies. Again, this does not mean there is not some practical value in knowing ones own brain may not be the same as the brains of other kinds of people..

Some anger is, in a sense, valid if it is because of social injustice, and actually any feeling a person is having is his feeling and cannot be dismissed (though anger in general is not practical, in my opinion) in terms of solving problems, and also anger is often used as a screen or distraction to keep from feeling another emotion. Much more on this later.

Last edited by littlebee on 01 May 2013, 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nessa238
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01 May 2013, 4:53 pm

littlebee wrote:

Anomiel wrote:

First, to MjrMajorMajor, thanks for your response....will comment later.

To Anomiel, it is not a matter of letting people use whatever labels they want (and you seem to be implying that I can even stop them), but rather inquiring into how certain kinds of labeling affects brain function, and not always in such a good way.. Anyway I am not saying people should not label themselves as autistic or whatever, but suggesting to look very carefully at the aspie-nt dichotomy, as I think ti is counter productive and really quite harmful, not to so-called nt's so much. but rather to aspies. Again, this does not mean there is not some practical value in know ones own brain may not be the same as the brains of other kinds of people..

Some anger is, in a sense, valid, if it is because of social injustice (though not practical, in my opinion) in terms of solving problems, and anger is often used as a screen for other emotions. Much more on this later.

My argument would be that if you want to avoid the NT-Asperger dichotomy, why create the Asperger's label in the first place?

I could have lived without it to be quite honest - I never went looking for a diagnosis - it found me

Don't label people in the first place if you don't want to cause people to start labelling others

The message seems to be "We can label your behaviour but don't start labelling our behaviour"

Again - the power dynamic in clear evidence

Anomiel
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01 May 2013, 6:10 pm

littlebee wrote:

Anomiel wrote:

I'm thinking about others who have the attitude that the NT/aspie-dichotomy is bad, not just you.
If anger is practical or not depends on how it's used. Things can be misread as anger, as when "NT" is used casually to describe "society". It is too literal thinking then to say "nooo not all NTs behave like that" when that wasn't really what was said in the first place. The ones that argue that NTs do all think/act in the same way are as guilty of prejudice as the ones that think all autistics think/act in the same way, but I doubt that most people that use those terms believe that. It is good that we can share what we have observed in a shared language, though it lacks refinement.
How does it hurt aspies? I can see how it could harm if we use those terms as an excuse to be prejudiced. Or even the implied disconnect from society might shape how we view the world. But it is empowering to put words on a feeling many of us had from before we even knew that we were autistic.

ETA: I think we're largely in agreement, littlebee. This was mostly musings about what these words mean to me and why I think they're good as it's a subject that comes up now and then.

Last edited by Anomiel on 01 May 2013, 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Popsicle
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01 May 2013, 8:00 pm

I honestly haven't seen it, but I mostly stick to about four of the forums.

According to the rules here AS or NT bashing isn't allowed, so try using the report button.

Ai_Ling
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01 May 2013, 8:49 pm

merkurialgirl wrote:

I came to this forum looking for ways to help my brother, who I am almost certain is an Aspie. He's such a neat guy, but he's been unable to figure out life as an adult, and I so very much want to understand him better and know how to help him work things out.

I am stunned by the amount of anger toward "NT'S" I see here on the forums and in the comment replies to the articles. So far, I have seen NT's called lemmings, sheep, irrational, stupid, illogical, deceitful, and unprincipled--not because of any moral choices, but simply because they are neurotypical and behave in accordance to a neurotypically defined world.

I'm bipolar with ADHD, so I can't claim to be especially comfortable in the NT world myself, though I know my experience is vastly different from that of those with autism spectrum disorders. However, the amount of vitriol I see here makes me sad. I wonder if this is how my brother sees me. I'm even more illogical and irrational than most NT's because my neuro-abnormality is a mood disorder.

Am I--or anyone else, NT or otherwise--unworthy of respect because our brains operate according to how we were born?

Some rail against how they have to conform to NT's rather than vice versa, and try to comfort themselves by saying that they're better than NTs--smarter, more logical and efficient, etc, etc--and then expect acceptance and generosity in return for that disdain and condescension.

How irrational.

Yeah there is some aspie superiority on here which I dont agree with. I think we bash NTs due to the difficulty and dissatisfaction with our lives. And because people treat us badly. Its not that NTs dont deserve respect, its more like we'll they dont give use respect so why should we give them respect? Getting back to the aspie superiority thing, some aspies are so angry, it helps them to feel better. And another thing, autism is still very much a stigmaed disability so if we are misrepresented and put down in the NT world, you think were gonna respect the society?

Joe90
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02 May 2013, 12:26 pm

Quote:

1. NT's are not one large monolithic group of people. They are still a quite diverse bunch, regardless of how similar they look to someone with AS.
2. There are lots of NT's that also call BS on many of the social norms and practices that those in the AS community tend to criticize.
3. Difficulties between NT's and AS people is usually due to laziness and/or ignorance rather than malice or contempt.
4. Many of the social problems typical to AS are also quite common in NT populations as well. Social anxiety and difficulty understanding non-verbal cues are common problems even amongst the "normal" people.
5. Aspies are more than capable of any of the things that NT's are so routinely accused of with such vitriol.

I agree with all of these, but I especially agree with number 4. It may not be as much of an issue with NTs than it is to Autistics, but NTs can still miss non-verbal cues. I've often seen an NT talking about something and the NT with him/her is looking bored, but the NT talking doesn't seem to notice that they are looking bored, and I can prove that the other NT was bored because I sometimes find out later if they tell me. So I'm not all that bad at recognising social cues, although I can make mistakes too, just like NTs.

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littlebee
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02 May 2013, 2:50 pm

Anomiel wrote:

littlebee wrote:

Anomiel wrote:

"How does it hurt aspies? I can see how it could harm if we use those terms as an excuse to be prejudiced. Or even the implied disconnect from society might shape how we view the world. But it is empowering to put words on a feeling many of us had from before we even knew that we were autistic"

Thanks for the response. It hurts aspies because a sense of self is being attached to the mechanical making of that kind of dichotomy, so certain feelings of self hood are being triggered by such a frame of reference (and also the release and subsequent reinforcement of negative emotions) which allows for certain facts to be left out and certain feelings not to be owned and felt but rather attributed to the outside), and the implied assumption is that I am the way I am because my brain is this way, and that is very questionable. I am the way I am for many different reasons, and looking at the situation so simplistically does not allows for a solution but rather keeps me locked into a certain position. Also, I do not see how substituting the meaning "society" for "nt" makes any difference. It is the same kind of thing.

I am learning something about myself here, too, and to be honest, I have to look carefully at my own life and subtle ways I may be doing this kind of thing....

opal
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03 May 2013, 5:10 am

nessa238 wrote:

Marky9 wrote:

I would be cautious not to overgeneralize postings on here regarding NT's as being a representative sampling of Aspie attitudes. Perhaps this forum is one of the very few places where an Aspie can vent frustrations, so an over-abundance of negativity might be expected.

Exactly, one of the functions of WP is to allow people somewhere to vent

But as usual someone has to come on and say we're just ruining their day by expressing our dissatisfaction with all the sh** we have to put up with :roll:

This^ . I work in an environment where I am often subjected to gossip, manipulation, sly bullying etc, and suggestions that I am not doing my job because I am not a team member (read : prepared to do everyone else's job ) , but these same people have enough time to spend half the day gossipping, bitching, and timing toilet breaks? :roll:

This is the only place I get to b***h about the illogical, lazy, manipulative people who spend half their day whinging about me (and anyone else they figure is too different.)

Edited to add - some of these people b***h about anyone, and everyone, but because I am "different" I am for some reason not allowed to complain about anything or anyone, justified or not. :cry:

. I don't get that dichotomy.

This is our safe place - this is where we are "allowed" to speak our truth.

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03 May 2013, 6:12 am

Oops, forgot to echo it:

Quote:

You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant.

littlebee
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03 May 2013, 11:42 am

opal wrote:

nessa238 wrote:

Marky9 wrote:

. I don't get that dichotomy.

This is our safe place - this is where we are "allowed" to speak our truth.

Wow, this is a great message to respond to.

No one is stopping you or anyone from venting here. Do you get that?

I am sorry you are being scapegoated in the workplace and sorry about the suffering you are going through.. I had some terrible problems along those lines, too, but it is unlikely the people are doing it because they are not aspies. You have no real evidence the same thing would not happen in a workplace full of aspies.

So these "lazy, manipulative people" are this way because they are what you call nt's? That is unlikely. It is necessary to be able to fit in into the workplace and harmonize. It is the law of the jungle, Sorry about that:-).

What you do not seem to get is that nobody here is telling you or anyone not to vent about nt's. It is kind of obvious, so why do you not get it? One possibility is if you get that principle that no one is telling you not to do this, then it gives you less to vent about. What is happening, as far as I can tell, is that people are looking at that process and inquiring into it, so what is happening is the expression of ideas...and that is what I am doing...just expressing some ideas.

And please do not say aspies are nicer than other kinds of people. It is an individual matter. There would surely be much more bullying and scapegoating on this forum if it were allowed..

Yes, it's hard to understand human cruelty. What people can do to other people is really horrible, but re the workplace, at least in my own situation, and I suspect it with other people, too, people have their own story about what is happening to them and why. The way I finally began to sort it out was to begin to look at my own behavior and how it affected other people. For instance I did not know how to stand up for myself. I did not have the skill to do it, and then when I finally did stand up for myself I was over assertive. This is just one example, not to imply it was all about my behavior. There were some nasty mean people.. Sometime I will write about it in more detail.

Last edited by littlebee on 03 May 2013, 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kamiyu910
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03 May 2013, 12:32 pm

People are people. People suck.
It just so happens that most of the suckage I've dealt with has come from NT's. They perpetuate the NT bashing, it seems. I've never had an aspie backstab me, use me, trick me, etc. I've had them insult me, sure... but still, my cynicism with life is from dealing with NT's. I won't bash them because they are only human, and humans, no matter the neuro makeup, are full of errors. But it still hurts.

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VisInsita
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03 May 2013, 3:11 pm

I think, Littlebee, you try to deny a dichotomy (autism – NT) with the very same dichotomy (e.g. --the encapsulated thinking behind it is causing all kinds of suffering, not meaning for so called 'nt's' but for the aspies--).

Also when we argue against autism as a frame of reference our basis of argumentation shifts easily just to another type of frame of reference – for example instead of autism you use self-help book type of psychological explanations (I must defend myself more).

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03 May 2013, 8:37 pm

I haven't seen excessive NT bashing on here. Only some, to which I have contributed my own little nugget from time to time and validly so. WP is our place, so we can express ourselves freely, here which we can't do out there in society. I will be damned if I will apologise for that. I have a lot of reasons to dislike the way NTs behave. And I'm afraid I have low empathy so I won't be worrying about how it feels to an NT to read it either. They haven't cared about how they've treated me and in some cases have gone out of their way to hurt me. It might do some NTs good to read about what their actions and words have done to Aspies.

It was NTs who bullied me at school, including physical assaults, it was my NT family who treated me like the black sheep, it was NTs who bitched at me in jobs, it was NTs who committed workplace bullying and deceptiveness at work to make me look bad and make me go on stress leave, it was NTs who physically attacked me for no reason. It is NTs who have made just about every aspect of my life difficult, scary, stressful and any number of other negative things.

It may not get us anywhere having negative feelings about NTs but it is our right and we need catharsis too.

If you want to understand your brother, understand some of the NT attitudes he faces and will come to face in his life because that is the biggest challenge he will endure.

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