Difference between the way NTs and Apies think

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gretchyn
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29 Oct 2013, 8:27 am

JitakuKeibiinB wrote:
I think primarily in language. Temple Grandin has written on this subject:

Quote:
9. AUTISTIC THINKING IS SPECIALIZED

When I wrote Thinking in Pictures (Grandin 1995), I thought everybody on the autism/Asperger spectrum was a visual thinker. People with autism and Asperger's are specialist thinkers. They are good at one thing and bad at other things. From both books and interviews, I have concluded that there are three principal types of specialist thinking.

1. Photo-realistic visual thinkers--such as I. All my thoughts are in photo-realistic pictures (Grandin & Johnson 2005). My area of weakness is in algebra because there is no way to visualize it. Visual thinkers can do geometry and trigonometry, but not algebra. For my work, visual thinking is very important. I can see everything in my head and then draw it on paper. Figures 1 and 2 show two of my drawings, done by hand, of livestock handling facilities. They date from the mid-1980s when I did much of my best work.

2. Pattern thinking--music and math mind. This is a more abstract form of visual thinking. Thoughts are in patterns instead of photo-realistic pictures. Pattern thinkers see patterns and relationships between numbers. Some of the best descriptions are in Daniel Tammet's book Born on a Blue Day (Tammet 2006) and in Jerry Newport's book Mozart and the Whale (Newport et al. 2007) The weak area in pattern thinkers is usually reading and writing composition.

3. Word-fact thinkers. These individuals have a huge memory for verbal facts on all kinds of things such as film stars and sporting events. They are often poor at drawing and other visual thinking skills.


I am skilled at thinking in all of those ways...



Stripeycat
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29 Oct 2013, 9:59 am

I think mostly in words and partly in pictures. I'm aspie; is it unusual for a spectrum person to think in words?

However, some of my thoughts are neither words nor pictures because they're silent and invisible, and I have no idea what type of thoughts they are.



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29 Oct 2013, 10:45 am

xxxxx


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Last edited by Jensen on 29 Oct 2013, 6:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Skilpadde
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29 Oct 2013, 10:45 am

Stripeycat wrote:
I think mostly in words and partly in pictures. I'm aspie; is it unusual for a spectrum person to think in words?

I'm the same. I don't think it's so uncommon among aspies, but it might be more common in classic autism.

Stripeycat wrote:
However, some of my thoughts are neither words nor pictures because they're silent and invisible, and I have no idea what type of thoughts they are.


That sounds intriguing. Can you elaborate?


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29 Oct 2013, 12:04 pm

If I had to choose between words vs pictures for thinking, I'd have to choose words. I will obviously think in literal images if I have to imagine something that pertains to the real word, eg: how I will lay tile. In general though, my inner-eye isn't very good. Comparatively, my inner-ear (not the physical area) is quite good, as I *can* think in words, and thinking in words can help refine my thoughts into something more cohesive. I can also imagine music in my head fairly easily, even stuff I can make up, although I'm incredibly lacking the ability and/or simply don't want to do the drudgery, to transform it into the real world.

Ultimately though, my thought generally isn't either words or pictures. It just sorta...is. Like if I'm thinking of complex ideas it's just that, an idea. I experience connections between ideas in my head and understand analogies, parallels in ideas, quite easily, and perceive other sorts of connection between ideas. Thought is its own unique experience that isn't notably related to any of the senses, (although I'm sure it stems from being able to perceive through the senses.) It's often a processing step away/up from any of the senses for me.
With that said, I often spend time searching for a specific word that I know exists, to convey an idea but I just can't think of them. Like just now, throughout writing this post, it took like, 10 minutes or something to finally remember the word 'analogy'. I can also have quite a hard time communicating complex ideas in real-time as making the shift from thought to speech can be hard. Especially if I haven't solidified an idea in my head.
Often when I do think in words it's to imagine explaining an idea to someone else. I'm beginning to fully grasp just how important this step is for successful communication of any half-complicated ideas. I'm finding that when I don't do that first, people tend to have a much harder time understanding me. Doing this actually eats away hours of my day, which isn't such a bad thing as I don't work and have plenty of time on my hands and I thoroughly enjoy getting lost in thought and trying to solidify my ideas.

I guess that's why I like message boards so much...I can take as long as I want to solidify my ideas and choose my words and, of course, get extra input.

I used to be a research assistant for a prof whose area of study was sex differences. One of the few areas where there is actually a difference is for make spatial-visual tasks where men, as a group, outperform women. I would not be surprised if this holds true within people on the AS.

As to the person who claimed that ASD's generally have higher IQ's than NT's, that's rather like saying the same thing the OP was suggesting. I have plenty of beef with IQ tests and how they relate to overall intelligence, and one of those reasons is that the majority of IQ test's questions rely on visual processing to understand patterns. And there's plenty of very good reasons why they do that, like ease of administration (ever imagined pattern processing that uses sounds or hell, smells?....well, there is that food lover who, astoundingly, uses food as thought!!) and avoidance of cultural learning, but it's still something I don't think I've ever heard someone else consider when it boils down to what exactly IQ measures.


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cavernio
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29 Oct 2013, 12:08 pm

I'm not only intrigued by your use of food for emotional changes foodeater, but also how movement plays a role in how you think. Fascinating. I would never have thought that would be something someone actually experiences, although it makes sense with how I think thought exists, that thought originates from experience which originates from perceptions. And touch and I'm assuming therefore movement, along with smell and taste, are some of the earliest sensations fetuses/babies experience.


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29 Oct 2013, 1:23 pm

cavernio wrote:
Ultimately though, my thought generally isn't either words or pictures. It just sorta...is. Like if I'm thinking of complex ideas it's just that, an idea. I experience connections between ideas in my head and understand analogies, parallels in ideas, quite easily, and perceive other sorts of connection between ideas. . . .Like just now, throughout writing this post, it took like, 10 minutes or something to finally remember the word 'analogy'.


It would seem that, following Grandin's schema, you are a pattern thinker. The patterns are not visual (even though they sort of are visible, but in an ethereal way). They sort of "are" as relationships and patterns and analogies.

At least this is how I think, and your description connects with me. Frankly, I think this is (like C++) a very powerful interior language. But its drawback is that it's hard to translate it into words.



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29 Oct 2013, 1:26 pm

Skilpadde wrote:
Stripeycat wrote:
However, some of my thoughts are neither words nor pictures because they're silent and invisible, and I have no idea what type of thoughts they are.


That sounds intriguing. Can you elaborate?


Sounds like another pattern thinker!



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29 Oct 2013, 1:38 pm

I don't really understand all this thinking in pictures or words. How do we know how NTs think unless we ask them? I thought everybody thought in a mixture of different ways, like words, pictures, emotions, etc. I think in words mostly, and pictures when daydreaming, and emotions practically all the time. Doesn't everyone?


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29 Oct 2013, 1:43 pm

Thanks, Joe.

Well, from what I've been reading (Olga Bogdashina, Communication Issues in Autism and Aspergers Syndrome) apparently not. But I certainly don't know the answer. Perhaps some NTs can chime in to help.



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29 Oct 2013, 2:06 pm

As I said above, I have dyslexia, so that that may affect things.
I guess that I use different ways of thinking for different things.
When thinking about what I'm feeling I'll see a corresponding video clip from a film, programme or cartoon. I think it's like Weebo from the film Flubber, who was a little flying robot who displayed different film/cartoon clips representing what she was thinking or feeling.
I can watch my favourite TV programmes in my head, like Sherlock. It's not perfect, though. Some scenes are missing or damaged.
I can listen to my favourtie radio comedy programme whilst working or walking and I am able to concentrate. It's easier than watching something.
I notice patterns, or things that match up, and coincidences quite often.
Hmmm, sorry if this is missing the point of the thread :oops:


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cavernio
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29 Oct 2013, 2:27 pm

"Frankly, I think this is (like C++) a very powerful interior language. But its drawback is that it's hard to translate it into words."

Language is a form of communication by definition, isn't it? I wouldn't call my thought language because of that.

Joe90: Upon reading responses, obviously not everyone thinks the same way! Sure there's lots of similarities, but for instance, I'd never consider movement, especially my own, as having anything to do with thought. I also can't really say that I think with emotions. I experience emotions, they exist for sure, but I don't consider them to be thought like you apparently do.

I truly do think that thought, for everyone, is the abstraction of pieces of what we can actually perceive. Since language itself is an abstraction that the majority of people innately learn, it makes sense that people's thoughts would nestle into language quite nicely and I'd hardly be surprised if this truly were found/is known to be a popular way of thinking.
It also makes sense that for people who have language difficulties, like many on the ASD, language wouldn't be adequate as a medium of thought. (as an aside, does the medium of the language matter for people on the ASD who have language difficulties? Like, is sign language somehow easier to use? I know that the written word must be easier, but that seems to be because there's lots of time to communicate.)
For some people, abstraction is going to be strongly tied into the mediums they experience. Likely there are lots of connections to lower-order processing areas (ie: areas that will get activated when actually seeing something for visual thinkers) during thought, than for someone like me for whom it's largely abstract. This isn't to say that I'm somehow smarter than other people because of this; a connectedness to a physical perception doesn't mean that there are fewer higher-up connections at all. Rather, I'd think *I'm* the person missing out on something. Just like I feel like I'm missing out on something when I think about what synesthetes perceive.

Just for example, the concept of up and down for me does actually relate to a physical sense of up and down and higher and lower in pitch (and to a lesser extent larger and smaller in quantity of something.) But I won't always be thinking of something being physically up when the concept of up applies to a thought, whereas someone else might always have a visual of up when thinking about it.

If I'm wrong though, that you don't fit into what I'm saying, please tell me how! I love cognition, it's why I took psychology at university.


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29 Oct 2013, 2:36 pm

nt's are sheeple... sheeple get jobs.... the ones that understand the big picture don't get access or get scam by the system.



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29 Oct 2013, 3:32 pm

There are a number of things that I was told or overheard before my diagnosis that took on new meaning for me after the diagnosis.

One of them was the moment when I was saying "I used to think everyone else thought like me, but then I realized some people don't think like me" and the other person said "No. They really don't think like you. That's right."

I later learned that she was an aspie and she had been trying hard to tell me that she thought I was, too.

This is one thought that keeps looping through my mind--they knew before I did. It's too weird.

But no, not everyone thinks in the same way. Apparently there are some differences in cognitive style that make it easier for some people on the spectrum to recognize others. And some of us are busy in our patterned, abstract thought and remain oblivious until things are communicated very directly.



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29 Oct 2013, 5:16 pm

cavernio wrote:
Language is a form of communication by definition, isn't it? I wouldn't call my thought language because of that.


Thought language is intra-communication. It's how the mind speaks to itself.

Once I get the idea in my own interior language, if I want to communicate it to another person, I have to take my language and allow it to "radiate" like spokes of a wheel into various English words, from which I then have to forge into sentences. It makes writing difficult for me, and it's not uncommon for me to get tied up in my words because they're not capturing what is going on in my head.



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29 Oct 2013, 6:14 pm

I'm NT. I think in words mostly, but I also can think in pictures when the occasion calls for it. When I'm thinking I have like this inner dialogue going on at all times.

I do have a question about thinking in pictures. When people say they think in pictures. What does that really mean? Is it like everything is playing out as it would in a daydream? I certainly see pictures when I'm daydreaming. Or is it more like, for example, if you are thinking about the word 'grass' do you not hear the word in your head and just see an image of grass and not the word at all?