NTs don't take our disorder seriously

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Joe90
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28 Jul 2015, 7:48 am

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I do not really believe in this.

Neither do I. My point entirely.

The way I see it, the empathy NTs are more natural with is being able to read body language generally and recognising social cues, stuff like that.

I believe it's highly inaccurate to say ''NTs are able to put themselves into other people's shoes and feel for them and understand their feelings, whereas Aspies can't''. I find that thrown around a lot in books and online websites about Asperger's or Autism, and it feels like such a vague statement.

It's like, we get scolded and given a bad name if we misunderstand an NT's problems, but nobody bats an eye when an NT doesn't understand an Aspie's problems, which is more so the case for most of us Aspies.

OK I am not really a ''us vs them'' person, because there are a lot of nice NTs out there and there are a lot of NT jerks out there who don't give a damn, don't understand, and are just selfish and ignorant. So I am not tarring all NTs with the same brush. Also there are other neurodiversities other than ASDs that often get misunderstood too, by us and NTs.

Also I think empathy is subjective.


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ToughDiamond
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28 Jul 2015, 11:07 am

Yup. Being NT and being compassionate are two completely separate things.



Norny
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28 Jul 2015, 9:10 pm

I think that empathy is misunderstood and overrated.


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olympiadis
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28 Jul 2015, 9:36 pm

we don't run the same software.



ToughDiamond
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28 Jul 2015, 9:43 pm

Norny wrote:
I think that empathy is misunderstood and overrated.

Yes it's a bad term because it has multiple definitions and is often wrongly taken to mean compassion.



Norny
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28 Jul 2015, 11:00 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
Norny wrote:
I think that empathy is misunderstood and overrated.

Yes it's a bad term because it has multiple definitions and is often wrongly taken to mean compassion.


Yeah! :'D


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29 Jul 2015, 12:03 am

There are two types of Empathy.

1. Affective aka Emotional Empathy

2. Cognitive Empathy

and there are subtypes of Affective Empathy.

It is said that Autistic people are high in Affective /Emotional Empathy and typically lack Cognitive Empathy.

Psychopaths, on the other hand, lack Affective/Emotional Empathy, however they do possess significant Cognitive Empathy, which is the type of empathy required for having an ability to 'read' people.

Perhaps Neurotypical people, have less Affective Empathy than ASD people, and more Cognitive Empathy, so they arent as equiped as we are, to 'put themselves in another's shoes', but much more equiped to read body language, pick up social cues, etc.



ZombieBrideXD
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29 Jul 2015, 12:13 am

They dont understand when a person says "i don't want to be around people" because they're probably a Extrovert; they get pleasure and energy by being with people. it makes no sense to them when you say " i want to be alone" they think your depressed and avoident, they want to help.


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nurseangela
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29 Jul 2015, 1:02 am

Britte wrote:
There are two types of Empathy.

1. Affective aka Emotional Empathy

2. Cognitive Empathy

and there are subtypes of Affective Empathy.

It is said that Autistic people are high in Affective /Emotional Empathy and typically lack Cognitive Empathy.

Psychopaths, on the other hand, lack Affective/Emotional Empathy, however they do possess significant Cognitive Empathy, which is the type of empathy required for having an ability to 'read' people.

Perhaps Neurotypical people, have less Affective Empathy than ASD people, and more Cognitive Empathy, so they arent as equiped as we are, to 'put themselves in another's shoes', but much more equiped to read body language, pick up social cues, etc.


This is true. I have both, as I "know" what a person feels like in a certain situation, but I then can choose whether I want to have the emotional empathy - usually I'll only have it with people close to me, otherwise I would get overloaded if I had emotional empathy for everyone.


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ToughDiamond
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29 Jul 2015, 12:30 pm

Britte wrote:
There are two types of Empathy.

1. Affective aka Emotional Empathy

2. Cognitive Empathy

and there are subtypes of Affective Empathy.

It is said that Autistic people are high in Affective /Emotional Empathy and typically lack Cognitive Empathy.

Psychopaths, on the other hand, lack Affective/Emotional Empathy, however they do possess significant Cognitive Empathy, which is the type of empathy required for having an ability to 'read' people.

Perhaps Neurotypical people, have less Affective Empathy than ASD people, and more Cognitive Empathy, so they arent as equiped as we are, to 'put themselves in another's shoes', but much more equiped to read body language, pick up social cues, etc.


Yes, I think that's a good summary of the received wisdom. The problem is, it's so intelligent and detailed that many NTs will never bother to try and understand it like that, and they'll continue to see us as simply "having no empathy," or "not caring."

Actually, it's not even enough for us to read their minds. It's rather harder than that:
"The paradigm case of an empathic interaction, however, involves a person communicating an accurate recognition of the significance of another person's ongoing intentional actions, associated emotional states, and personal characteristics in a manner that the recognized person can tolerate. Recognitions that are both accurate and tolerable are central features of empathy"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Definition

I also noticed on the same page that "Empathy is distinct from............emotional contagion." I've read a number of posts by ASDers saying that their problem isn't not knowing what other people's feelings are, it's actually coping with the impact of people's negative feelings, which they sense perfectly well. So I wonder if the main problem is that we actually can sense the feelings of others, but we don't know how to respond appropriately?



olympiadis
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29 Jul 2015, 2:02 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
So I wonder if the main problem is that we actually can sense the feelings of others, but we don't know how to respond appropriately?



We don't run the same software. The hive mind isn't controlling our behaviors in the way that it does with NTs.
What each person is consciously aware of becomes irrelevant. I think It's an issue of control.



Falloy
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29 Jul 2015, 4:20 pm

I think a lot of people see our problems as just skills we haven't learned. Some of them enjoy looking down on us and laughing at us because they think that they have made the effort and gone out and learned those skills while we were too lazy and/or stupid to do so.

To be fair, we're probably asking people to understand that we can't do things that they aren't even aware that they can do. It's easy to see that a wheelchair-user can't negotiate a staircase but it's harder to grasp that I can't recognise the faces of office colleagues if I don't see them often or if I see them out of context.

For years before my diagnosis I was told that social interaction would get easier for me if I just went out more often and that sensory issues would get easier to deal with if I just tried to tough it out. I tried and I tried but neither of these things happened. I think it's safe to say at my age now that they're not going to happen.

I must do what I can of course and I think that I can interact with people fairly well if they are willing to give me a bit of slack - I've met lots of people who come across who are far ruder who would never consider that they were lacking in social skills.



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29 Jul 2015, 5:02 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
I've read a number of posts by ASDers saying that their problem isn't not knowing what other people's feelings are, it's actually coping with the impact of people's negative feelings, which they sense perfectly well. So I wonder if the main problem is that we actually can sense the feelings of others, but we don't know how to respond appropriately?


This describes what I experience very well. I am highly empathic, to the point where I can feel another's pain, sadness, etc., deeply, however, I am unable to figure out just how to respond. I will either not respond, or I will respond and say or do something that the other person will find unhelpful, bothersome or inappropriate. I have a friend at work, who's father is very sick and only has a few more days to live. I feel extremely sad for her and I feel as though her sadness just projects directly into my heart, but, when I try to think of a way to comfort her, all I do is tell her "I am here for you", despite feeling that I want to take her pain away from her. I believe this is why I become so uncomfortable at funerals. I don't normally cry, as it isn't how I react at funerals, and the worst is when you're faced with speaking with others, before or after the service. I am quite sure I come across as a cold fish, even though I feel deep sadness for the family members (and others) in attendance. It's hard to explain, precisely how it is for me. I try not to have to attend funerals, for this reason. It is unbearably uncomfortable for me.



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29 Jul 2015, 6:04 pm

Falloy wrote:
I think a lot of people see our problems as just skills we haven't learned. Some of them enjoy looking down on us and laughing at us because they think that they have made the effort and gone out and learned those skills while we were too lazy and/or stupid to do so.

To be fair, we're probably asking people to understand that we can't do things that they aren't even aware that they can do. It's easy to see that a wheelchair-user can't negotiate a staircase but it's harder to grasp that I can't recognise the faces of office colleagues if I don't see them often or if I see them out of context.

For years before my diagnosis I was told that social interaction would get easier for me if I just went out more often and that sensory issues would get easier to deal with if I just tried to tough it out. I tried and I tried but neither of these things happened. I think it's safe to say at my age now that they're not going to happen.

I must do what I can of course and I think that I can interact with people fairly well if they are willing to give me a bit of slack - I've met lots of people who come across who are far ruder who would never consider that they were lacking in social skills.


I guess for some it's true because I know thing got easier for me so I got older but I just had to practice them. I got used to noisy places by going to them. I had occupational therapy so that helped with my sensory issues and some people in wheelchairs to learn how to walk so I guess it depends on the individual.


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29 Jul 2015, 6:25 pm

ME: This (applying whatever solution Manager/Supervisor/Co-worker has suggested for a problem) might be really difficult for me because of Asperger's Syndrome.
NT CoWorker: I am sick and tired of hearing about your autism and Asperger's Syndrome. We all have issues, just deal with it!

**smh**

Do people not understand the difference between "issues" (life is hard, bad stuff happens, everybody struggles and Murphy's Law) and an actual disability?

Do they say to dyslexics, I'm sick of your excuses, just read the manual?

Do they say to people in wheelchairs, "I'm sick of you needing to wait for the (super slow) elevator to go up just one floor, why don't you stand up so we can take the (much faster plus we're getting our exercise) stairs?"

Do they say to people with Downs Syndrome "math is hard for everyone, just work harder at it then you'll be able to help others with their homework?"

It's a disability. Accommodate, or leave me alone so I can cope with it my own way. 99% chance your way won't work for me because Asperger's Syndrome, whether you like/understand/tolerate autism or not. -_-


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30 Jul 2015, 3:57 pm

Falloy wrote:
To be fair, we're probably asking people to understand that we can't do things that they aren't even aware that they can do. It's easy to see that a wheelchair-user can't negotiate a staircase but it's harder to grasp that I can't recognise the faces of office colleagues if I don't see them often or if I see them out of context.


That's an interesting point. I often have difficulty placing faces out of context. I never thought of it as being connected to my ASD. I've always figured I just have a lousy memory (which is true in other cases).