Aspies and lying

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wilburforce
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01 Mar 2016, 9:52 pm

DonTrump wrote:

wilburforce wrote:

DonTrump wrote:

Yigeren wrote:

People in general can be good, bad, or somewhere in between. There are aspies that have harmful behaviors because of their autism, and there are likely some that are just mean people, and it has nothing to do with autism.

Having autism can make it harder to relate to and understand others (cognitive empathy /theory of mind) , and make it more difficult to feel empathy as a result. But many of those on the spectrum actually have reported increased empathy and sympathy for others compared to the average person.

When I was young I could be quite callous, because I didn't understand others or how my behavior affected them. I also had an abusive childhood. But I have worked on these aspects of myself. And I've always had very strong feelings of affective/emotional empathy.

My point is that we are not all the same, and it's entirely possible that your dad is a jerk just because he's a jerk.

I'm not really sure he is a jerk out of being a jerk. After I started beating him he started treating me alot better,he was really abusive until I started defending myself. Nowadays he tries to compensate by giving me a nice car and a good life.He pays for my apartment and tries to help me out,I can't really say he is a huge jerk because he has gotten a lot better after I explain to him how his behavior affected me as a child. My dad just couldn't give me life advice because he doesn't really understand people if that makes sense.My father shaped who I am as a person today and whether it was due to his autism or not doesn't really matter. A child doesn't know that his dad potentially has autism,all he knows is that the man doesn't show empathy and maybe I subconsciously tried to emulate him.Nowadays he is pretty passive but it is still hard as hell to relate to the guy.He doesn't really get as defensive as he used to because I think he has learned with age that things aren't always cut and dry. I know that I lack empathy but I can read body language subconsciously.My family is of latin American background so our cultural norms are different. I feel like In America when parents find out little billy has autism they just let their son use autism as an excuse for inappropriate behaviors.The user that posted that BS about my dad shooting his own flesh,or that sexual abuse victims are at fault really rubbed me the wrong way.When people say well autistic people are people and people can be good or bad,I can't say I necessarily agree with them. No neurotypical person fantasizes about killing people,or sees killing others as a justifiable way of solving problems.If a person thinks about killing,they are simply not neurotypicals.So we can't really say normal people think about killing others because if the person thinks about killing others than they are no longer normal. Not all killers are autistic(most aren't) but ALL killers are NOT neurotypicals. There is always an underlying condition.

You keep equating autism/Asperger's with a lack of empathy. ASD is not about a lack of empathy--people who think that lack of empathy and autism are related suffer from a lack of correct information about autism.

http://www.autism-help.org/story-adult-empathy.htm

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/as ... heory-mind

I am not saying that autistic people are lacking empathy like a sociopath because I know that is not the case,but if you can't read body language,can't read facial expressions,can't read non verbal communication than you CANNOT feel empathy.I do think autistic people feel sympathy,but sympathy and empathy are too completely different things. How can you put yourself in someone else's shoes if someone has no theory of mind? I am not blaming anyone here or casting aspies as uncaring,but the truth of the matter is that redefining empathy doesn't change what it actually conveys.

That's just it though--each person with autism has a different level of awareness of the expressions and body language of others because of their own level of social impairment and also whatever cognitive training they've received through experience to read people. I lacked the intuitive understanding of the expressions and behaviours of others, but in early childhood my mother spent a lot of time explaining many of those things to me so I came to be able to read people cognitively rather than intuitively. When I use my cognitive abilities to read the state of mind of others, I can then empathise with their feelings and experiences. Many of us have learned cognitive adaptations like this--but it is still a social impairment because it can never happen immediately and intuitively (and mostly subconsciously) like it does with NTs, so with us there are pauses and gaps in the back-and-forth of conversations and interactions that give us away as "not normal".

I doubt your intentions for being here. You have admitted to having NPD--therefore it is pointless to take any of your words at face value. Your behaviour, on the other hand, is up for interpretation, and to me it seems rather trollish on these forums. It feels like you are here to needle autists for your own entertainment because you resent your father. I don't see why any of us should trust your intentions when you admit to being a malignant narcissist and having no empathy for others. You might just be wasting your time here, and perhaps should consider looking for "support" on a forum for others like yourself.

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GodzillaWoman
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01 Mar 2016, 10:15 pm

DonTrump wrote:

wilburforce wrote:

I am not convinced that Aspergians/autistics completely lack a theory of mind. Like everything else that applies to us, it varies from person to person. Some studies indicate that some autistics do have a theory of mind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind-blindness) or can learn to understand how other people feel intellectually, by asking them or learning to read nonverbal cues.

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zkydz
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01 Mar 2016, 10:17 pm

I'm going to weigh in here. I'm in a calmer state now. other issue, not this.....

But, whatever your resons for being here and saying things about Autistic people cannot have empathy is wrong. I call complete BS on it because I see empathy here every day.

I may not be able to read people worth a damn in real life, and it looks like I don't care. But, once I put it together, usually later, I feel what's going on.

Here, I see empathy. it's prably easier here because we are not overwhelmed worrying to split things between observation and thought. Here we see words. No confusing things...except some incoming and outgoing communication issues, no faceds, no getting bored and drifting off. If we reply, and encourage, and support, we are empathic. It is moronic to state othewise.

It is self evident. Insistance on the opposite when empathy in one form or another is demonstrated here every day, I too wondr abut your intentions.

I read your links....couldn't disagree more.

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Diagnosed April 14, 2016
ASD Level 1 without intellectual impairments.

RAADS-R -- 213.3
FQ -- 18.7
EQ -- 13
Aspie Quiz -- 186 out of 200
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DonTrump
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01 Mar 2016, 10:27 pm

justkillingtime wrote:

I think people with autism can have empathy if they have enough information about what is going on with the other person or the situation.

At that point it is no longer empathy but sympathy. Autistic people no doubt have sympathy(some I can't speak for all) but sympathy and empathy are not synonymous. If you need someone to tell you how they feel that is no longer empathy,empathy would be if you saw someone crying and started crying yourself because you felt their pain personally.

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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 44 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 162 of 200

DonTrump
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01 Mar 2016, 10:32 pm

zkydz wrote:

How can you see empathy on here if it is all written lol? What is the difference between sympathy vs empathy to you personally?

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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 44 of 200
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zkydz
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01 Mar 2016, 10:38 pm

DonTrump wrote:

zkydz wrote:

How can you see empathy on here if it is all written lol? What is the difference between sympathy vs empathy to you personally?

Simple. You don't have to see another person to feel empathy.

Empathy is understanding the feeling, people here have shared the pain you have not. They express it, you see it. Then when they sahre itb back to you, you know it's true.

sympathy is not understanding, it is mere regret.

You do not hve to see a face to get that.

You don't show either empathy or sympathy, so the troll quoteint went up a factor of ten.

_________________
Diagnosed April 14, 2016
ASD Level 1 without intellectual impairments.

RAADS-R -- 213.3
FQ -- 18.7
EQ -- 13
Aspie Quiz -- 186 out of 200
AQ: 42
AQ-10: 8.8

DonTrump
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01 Mar 2016, 10:45 pm

zkydz wrote:

DonTrump wrote:

zkydz wrote:

How can you see empathy on here if it is all written lol? What is the difference between sympathy vs empathy to you personally?

No it is not,you are redefining words so that you can feel better about yourself. I frankly don't care if you think I am a troll,you ask for people to understand you/have patience with you but you are constantly defensive and getting insulted.

Here is the definition of sympathy: https://www.google.com/search?q=define+ ... 2&ie=UTF-8

It is not regret or whatever nonsense you spewed out.If you can't read a persons feelings you don't have empathy period. I am not going to argue this because it is a waste of time,if you had empathy you would not have autism. If you had empathy you would not be calling me a troll when I came on this forum to ask a simple question. I have Cognitive empathy if you want to look it up.Your feelings do not change the definition of a word.

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justkillingtime
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01 Mar 2016, 10:58 pm

Empathy is shared perspective or emotion regardless of how you got there. I don't see how someone helping you understand what they are feeling rules out empathy.

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zkydz
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01 Mar 2016, 11:00 pm

DonTrump wrote:

zkydz wrote:

DonTrump wrote:

zkydz wrote:

How can you see empathy on here if it is all written lol? What is the difference between sympathy vs empathy to you personally?

I can dpo this all noght.
http://grammarist.com/usage/empathy-sympathy/
When you understand and feel another’s feelings for yourself, you have empathy.
When you sympathize with someone, you have compassion for that person, but you don’t necessarily feel her feelings.

http://blog.dictionary.com/empathy-vs-sympathy/
Nowadays sympathy is largely used to convey commiseration, pity, or feelings of sorrow for someone who is experiencing misfortune.
empathy has come to be used in a more broad way than it was when it was first introduced into the lexicon; the term is now most often used to refer to the capacity or ability to imagine oneself in the situation of another, thereby vicariously experiencing the emotions, ideas, or opinions of that person.

https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/cho ... -sympathy/
When you feel what someone else feels, that's empathy.
To feel sympathy for someone is to feel bad for them:

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Empathy_vs_Sympathy
Empathy-Definition-Understanding what others are feeling because you have experienced it yourself or can put yourself in their shoes.
Sympathy-Definition-Acknowledging another person's emotional hardships and providing comfort and assurance.

So, I did not change any definition. As a matter of fact I cut and pasted part of the definition because I have outgoing communication issues.

You however do not. The fact that you are trying to cherry pick this is just an example of your NPD at work.

This thread needs to be locked since you are the one trying to redefine things to get your NPD thrill out of provoking Autistic people purposefully.

_________________
Diagnosed April 14, 2016
ASD Level 1 without intellectual impairments.

RAADS-R -- 213.3
FQ -- 18.7
EQ -- 13
Aspie Quiz -- 186 out of 200
AQ: 42
AQ-10: 8.8

boofle
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01 Mar 2016, 11:01 pm

Quote:

zkydz wrote:

Simple. You don't have to see another person to feel empathy

No idea if the other dude is troll or not but, genuine question for you because each person on the spectrum is unique; I totally believe you can empathise using the written medium but would you be able to empathise with a complete stranger, by gauging their facial expressions, 'in person?'

Is this the sort of thing you already do?

zkydz
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01 Mar 2016, 11:12 pm

boofle wrote:

Quote:

zkydz wrote:

Simple. You don't have to see another person to feel empathy

I cannot do it on the fly. I take in so much sensory information that I have to sort it and later understand. There are things I can see immediately. Someone crying, frowning or smiling or laughing.

But I can't tell the polite smile for the real smile or the disapproving frown from the sad frown.

But when I get through all the information, I get it.

Autistics are unique, but not special. Here is the difference,
you can take twenty people and they will be completely unique. But many of them will share the same experiences.
To be special would require a completley unique set of expereinces and outcomes.

For instance, one may withdraw, another may lash out. But those two may have the same sensory issues, just different outcomes.

When another person here tells me they have trouble hearing things properly in certain environments, I feel it. I understand it.

When I hear another tell of so many things that I find their words define my expereinces and I feel that.

_________________
Diagnosed April 14, 2016
ASD Level 1 without intellectual impairments.

RAADS-R -- 213.3
FQ -- 18.7
EQ -- 13
Aspie Quiz -- 186 out of 200
AQ: 42
AQ-10: 8.8

DonTrump
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01 Mar 2016, 11:15 pm

zkydz wrote:

DonTrump wrote:

zkydz wrote:

DonTrump wrote:

zkydz wrote:

How can you see empathy on here if it is all written lol? What is the difference between sympathy vs empathy to you personally?

I am not even for sure a NPD I could very well be asperger's why does it even matter if I am struggling in my life anyways?The only reason you feel empathy for others with asperger's is because you have it yourself,this is not empathy. If you felt empathy you wouldn't be calling me a troll right now.I am profoundly insulted that you are calling me a troll when I am trying to gain information to improve my life. Quite frankly,I could careless about your defensiveness to protect your little feelings. I am not here to beat around the bush I am here to gain insight about my personal life so that I can change it.You make it seem like your Asperger's is a free licence to bully/intimidate people,and when you offend someone you just say "Oh I just misinterpreted what you said",how convenient huh?

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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 44 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 162 of 200

zkydz
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01 Mar 2016, 11:23 pm

DonTrump wrote:

And there you go again. That is trolling.

You are not here to find any truth. People are telling you that they can feel other people's or animal's troubles. You are saying they're lying by telling them that they cannot feel.

You are not gaining insight. You only seem to be feeding your need to be 'right' without logic. Twisting definitions to suit your purposes is the opposite of gaining insight.

Kinda noticed you dropped the BS about changing definitions. That is not a change in position. That is just being backed into a corner, not insight.

And, it is not convenient to have interpretation issues. What shows the BS at work here is that people who understand that, will work with someone and find another way to explain it. Then there are no interpretation issues.

And, I do not see it as a way to intimidate of bully people. What the hell makes you even think that? I have given you no information at all about me. You know nothing about me, or really anybody else here for that matter. But you accuse me and other autistics that we use it as an excuse?

Again, this thread should be locked because you are only seeking attention.

_________________
Diagnosed April 14, 2016
ASD Level 1 without intellectual impairments.

RAADS-R -- 213.3
FQ -- 18.7
EQ -- 13
Aspie Quiz -- 186 out of 200
AQ: 42
AQ-10: 8.8

boofle
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01 Mar 2016, 11:29 pm

Quote:

i cannot do it on the fly. I take in so much sensory information that I have to sort it and later understand. There are things I can see immediately. Someone crying, frowning or smiling or laughing.

But I can't tell the polite smile for the real smile or the disapproving frown from the sad frown.

But when I get through all the information, I get it.

Cool. So essentially, the instinctive empathy most NTs can do on the fly no matter how subtle, generally speaking, is just out of reach for you.
You can relate, feel deeply, share the pain, sympathise but the only element missing, as it were, is the instinctive reading of more complex/subtle emotions because that requires a level of facility with body language.

I guess then, in this instance, the other dude is 'partly' right? Cos I suppose how empathy is measured for someone on the spectrum would differ from how it's measured for someone like me? I mean I can read body language, as well as do the other stuff, so my ability to empathise is more 'complete' for wont of a better way of expressing it. This isn't to say you can't do both empathy n sympathy but how you do it is 'different', not as intuitive as it is for me.

Or am I misunderstanding stuff? Not unusual

DonTrump
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01 Mar 2016, 11:33 pm

zkydz wrote:

DonTrump wrote:

No I am accusing you not other autistics,no I am not backed into a corner. I gave you psychological definitions and linked you articles so you could discredit them. I backed you into a corner because you are getting emotional because I don't want to give you a license/free pass to abuse people as you wish. Why do you deserve more sympathy from anyone? I don't care if your little feelings are hurt.I linked you articles so that you could say "I don't believe a professional assessment I am going to make up my own meaning to feel good about myself" You have to resort to immature name calling to get your point across because you know you have no recourse here. Your autism has nothing to do with your behavior,your parents just never corrected you and you feel as though you can say whatever you want to people without them saying anything back.Let me help you out here though just so you can keep lying to yourself about empathy anyways.

I have had many friends with asperger's you are clearly just using your condition as an excuse to be vile and you know it. Now quit trying to bully me because it is not going to work and go back to doing some research on empathy. I linked a video with stick figures so I know for sure you will understand. If you felt empathy you would not be making these disgusting,vile, and insulting posts. You insult me and everyone else with a disorder by justifying your reprehensible behavior with diagnosis. I am not your mother or your father and it is not my responsibility to make sure your feelings aren't hurt.I provide you facts and reasoning while you attack me ferociously and viscously.

_________________
Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 44 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 162 of 200

boofle
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01 Mar 2016, 11:35 pm

Meh. Cba with arguments at this time of the morning. It's 04.33 my timezone and I was having trouble sleeping again.
I'd rather go back to bed n try n get some Zzzzzs again.

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