Does this count as being on the spectrum?

Page 3 of 5 [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

itsme82
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 183

04 Apr 2017, 10:12 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Social skills don't come naturally to many people with Aspergers. They must learn it consciously, "manually."

For most non-autistic people, social skills are learned in an instinctual, almost unconscious sense. They are an intrinsic part of such a person's makeup.


OK, for me it's definitely the latter case, I just don't have the subtler parts of the skills. I suspect some of those subtle things will never be automatically picked up by me, and I can't learn them consciously either (that would be too unnatural for me and wouldn't really work).

So I think, what you said about not feeling people well in the context of a little BAP (with the slightly impaired social-cognitive ability) is what applies to me. Thanks, you really helped by pointing out these aspects. :)

Oh and of course thanks to everyone else too who posted, that was helpful too. If anyone still wants to post about the earlier stuff, that's fine of course.

I'll definitely hang around here a bit in any case, I can see some helpful threads/information on this site even if it's just BAP and not AS for me.



itsme82
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 183

07 Apr 2017, 9:17 pm

New question. How does BAP differ from OCPD if only scoring high enough on two scales of Aloofness and Rigidity with the Pragmatic language scale being low?... That meets criteria for BAP but it seems like an overlap. Weird.



NikNak
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 6 Aug 2016
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 223
Location: Scotland

08 Apr 2017, 9:09 am

itsme82 wrote:
New question. How does BAP differ from OCPD if only scoring high enough on two scales of Aloofness and Rigidity with the Pragmatic language scale being low?... That meets criteria for BAP but it seems like an overlap. Weird.


OCPD would present with traits to the degree that they cause significant impairment in the person's functioning while BAP is not a clinical diagnosis and merely describes those with elevated levels of 'autistic traits' but no functional impairment. I think the term was first used in research when describing family members of autistic individuals as they tend to present with these higher trait levels and this is usually in the social communication domain but not the RRBIs (don't quote me on this though as it's just from the top of my head).

Other than that, don't get too fixated on all these scales as many lack scientific sensitivity, specificity, and/ or validity. The best way to be sure is to seek professional assessment and even then things can be misdiagnosed or missed entirely.


_________________
Diagnosed ASD Aug 2016, confirmed Dec 2016.
Also have OCD and various 'issues'.


itsme82
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 183

08 Apr 2017, 10:19 am

NikNak wrote:
itsme82 wrote:
New question. How does BAP differ from OCPD if only scoring high enough on two scales of Aloofness and Rigidity with the Pragmatic language scale being low?... That meets criteria for BAP but it seems like an overlap. Weird.


OCPD would present with traits to the degree that they cause significant impairment in the person's functioning while BAP is not a clinical diagnosis and merely describes those with elevated levels of 'autistic traits' but no functional impairment. I think the term was first used in research when describing family members of autistic individuals as they tend to present with these higher trait levels and this is usually in the social communication domain but not the RRBIs (don't quote me on this though as it's just from the top of my head).

Other than that, don't get too fixated on all these scales as many lack scientific sensitivity, specificity, and/ or validity. The best way to be sure is to seek professional assessment and even then things can be misdiagnosed or missed entirely.


Yeah, I know that OCPD is a personality disorder and BAP is not. However, I was contrasting OCPD with this mild, subclinical "form" of ASD called BAP, in terms of what the differences would be beyond BAP possibly just being milder than a real PD or other official diagnosis of a disorder such as ASD.

Both crucially involve rigidity and lack of having social involvement/relationships or lack of enjoyment of them. Of course I realize there are some other features of OCPD, just wondered really about the psychological mechanisms beyond the surface traits.

I do realize of course what you say about how e.g. BAP is not very deeply researched or elaborated on just yet. So this is kind of a questioning of its validity too. ;)


If by RRBI you mean Repetitive And Restricted Behaviors And Interests, no, to qualify for BAP you essentially just have to score high enough at least in two of three scales when tested for BAP: Aloof personality, Rigid personality, Pragmatic language issues.

(Aloof personality: a lack of interest in or enjoyment of social interaction
Rigid personality: little interest in change or difficulty adjusting to change
Pragmatic language problems: deficits in the social aspects of language, resulting in
difficulties communicating effectively or in holding a fluid, reciprocal conversation)


Oh and no way that I'd just rely on so-called "professional assessment" if it's not done by someone who really does have a professional approach. (In addition, I prefer to put together things for myself too.) Many of these psychiatrists/psychologists can display an incredibly unprofessional approach. Like you allude to it too. It's really shocking how there are not enough checks or something about ensuring enough quality in the practice of these professions.



bjornflanagan
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 12 Apr 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 35
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

08 Apr 2017, 11:54 am

itsme82 wrote:
Thanks for giving me that diagnostic criteria, I didn't have it.

I'll highlight what applies to me enough, the rest doesn't.


Quote:
"(I) Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(A) marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(B) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(C) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest
or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(D) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(A) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
(B) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(C) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
(D) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects


(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.



So do I understand this right, if nothing applies from "Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities" then I cannot be diagnosed as AS? If you agree with this, then I guess I have my final answer.

To elaborate a bit:
I do have intense interests and my focus is very narrow, but it's all for a real life goal, I like to contribute to people's good with my understanding and I don't analyze anything for long if there is no goal in mind. So I suppose that doesn't count.

I have a hypothesis on what qualifies for 2-a in the diagnostic criteria but, while your posts have been long and dense with analysis, there is a level of vagueness to them that hinders my own analysis. There are no specifics to the goals you strive toward. The question would be: what is the relation between you and the goals to which you align your efforts? Are these overt goals merely a face for an underlying fascination that was sublimated to appear functional? Someone on the spectrum who has made it to adulthood without a diagnosis must create coping strategies out of necessity to handle NT expectations and responsibilities. I for one have found several AS traits that were sublimated into my neurotypical persona. It is like the pagan rituals that were absorbed into Christianity. Some pagans were forced to be Christian and to be able to maintain their beliefs they made them appear to follow the church while maintaining their subtext.

Also, you seem very preoccupied with how you are seen by others and take efforts to fix how you present yourself (this sounds like manually learning social interactions to me as was an earlier comment at practicing facial emotes)

Quote:
As a teenager I did have one interest that did not have a real life goal... that I hid from others because I was aware it would be VERY weird. I somehow outgrew that though, hm. And as a kid I had none of that.

This is another vague comment that could have implications but is left as an unknown. Yet, I cannot ascertain if I am just inexorably curious or if it is pertinent data.

I will have to print out this thread to fully absorb it and give you a proper analysis.


_________________
"A very common error: Having the courage of one's convictions; rather, it should be having the courage to attack one's own convictions."

***Friedrich Nietzsche***


NikNak
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 6 Aug 2016
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 223
Location: Scotland

08 Apr 2017, 12:04 pm

itsme82 wrote:
NikNak wrote:
itsme82 wrote:
New question. How does BAP differ from OCPD if only scoring high enough on two scales of Aloofness and Rigidity with the Pragmatic language scale being low?... That meets criteria for BAP but it seems like an overlap. Weird.


OCPD would present with traits to the degree that they cause significant impairment in the person's functioning while BAP is not a clinical diagnosis and merely describes those with elevated levels of 'autistic traits' but no functional impairment. I think the term was first used in research when describing family members of autistic individuals as they tend to present with these higher trait levels and this is usually in the social communication domain but not the RRBIs (don't quote me on this though as it's just from the top of my head).

Other than that, don't get too fixated on all these scales as many lack scientific sensitivity, specificity, and/ or validity. The best way to be sure is to seek professional assessment and even then things can be misdiagnosed or missed entirely.


Yeah, I know that OCPD is a personality disorder and BAP is not. However, I was contrasting OCPD with this mild, subclinical "form" of ASD called BAP, in terms of what the differences would be beyond BAP possibly just being milder than a real PD or other official diagnosis of a disorder such as ASD.

Both crucially involve rigidity and lack of having social involvement/relationships or lack of enjoyment of them. Of course I realize there are some other features of OCPD, just wondered really about the psychological mechanisms beyond the surface traits.

I do realize of course what you say about how e.g. BAP is not very deeply researched or elaborated on just yet. So this is kind of a questioning of its validity too. ;)


If by RRBI you mean Repetitive And Restricted Behaviors And Interests, no, to qualify for BAP you essentially just have to score high enough at least in two of three scales when tested for BAP: Aloof personality, Rigid personality, Pragmatic language issues.

(Aloof personality: a lack of interest in or enjoyment of social interaction
Rigid personality: little interest in change or difficulty adjusting to change
Pragmatic language problems: deficits in the social aspects of language, resulting in
difficulties communicating effectively or in holding a fluid, reciprocal conversation)


Oh and no way that I'd just rely on so-called "professional assessment" if it's not done by someone who really does have a professional approach. (In addition, I prefer to put together things for myself too.) Many of these psychiatrists/psychologists can display an incredibly unprofessional approach. Like you allude to it too. It's really shocking how there are not enough checks or something about ensuring enough quality in the practice of these professions.


Ah well if we're talking underlying psychological mechanism then (and again, this is from memory- I'm on my phone so pulling up references would be a pain) then I'd say there likely IS an overlap at a congnitive and neurological level. As you said, research is lacking but there has been evidence for certain processes taking part in specific parts of the brain (such as the amygdala) that result in symptoms of autism, OCD, depression... the list goes on.

They really have little idea as to the aetiology of autism or indeeed many conditions and there's question over the validity of diagnostic constructs as a whole but in short, there is a lot of overlap in symptoms.

And that's exactly what I was alluding too ;)


_________________
Diagnosed ASD Aug 2016, confirmed Dec 2016.
Also have OCD and various 'issues'.


itsme82
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 183

08 Apr 2017, 6:13 pm

bjornflanagan wrote:
I will have to print out this thread to fully absorb it and give you a proper analysis.


Hey. Thanks a lot for you trying to give such thorough help. :) That really really is nice of you even printing it out and reading it all. :o


OK, I'll try to answer your post. So. Vagueness, because I don't describe examples from my life? I can do that, feel free to ask wherever you need me doing that.

Essentially, what I'm really curious about is if you have input on what my issues with social stuff/people are, especially the 2nd part here, this is the main point really:

"1) Aloofness aspect (as per BAP, or "qualitative impairment in social interaction" for DSM-IV): I too easily get oblivious of connecting with people or how to even connect to people.
2) I don't know what this aspect is: Easily too much bluntness, missing subtler expressions, certain (many) jokes and their dynamics, and some broader social cues regarding (the more advanced kind of) diplomacy. Basic stuff is fine tho' and I never had to learn the basic stuff, it comes from instinct."


Let me add new information: I suspect I do have some OCPD and alexithymic traits, too, if that matters.



OK, a few clarifications on the things you were wondering about:

With the goals thing, interesting thoughts. I would say, it's not pretension to try and look functional or normal. I don't get the idea of trying to look "functional". I do care about being "normal" though by automatically following many social norms. And then sometimes not other ones, lol - but I'm quite naturally conventional with many of them. I can give examples.

What do you mean by "NT expectations and responsibilities"? There are social norms, sure, if that's what you mean? And yes, I care to some degree how I'm seen by others, including some basic aspects of social status. Like, how I dress, stuff like that. It's just normal for me, does not feel forced.

What are your AS traits that you sublimated?

Then, examples of the goals: winning certain races in sport or at least getting on podium. Making enough money to buy my own condo. Helping people (e.g. in online community but it can be IRL too) with my expertise by doing specific tasks or offer my creations for them* and give advice in general. Somehow all those are strong drives for me. This people-related stuff is very important for me, too. I really need the involvement with people in my own way, through this heavily task-oriented approach of offering my contributions. Again, not pretension.

*: e.g. I did some pieces of software, learnt some of that stuff just to help some people, but of course I found it intellectually interesting enough to be able to continue with it. Or, I wrote sports training plans, where I did already have the understanding, not purely learnt to make contributions.


As for social interactions. I may have misunderstood what it means to "manually learning social interactions". I was thinking of things that I read about, like learning how long to hold eye contact. That to me would sound really forced trying to learn such nonverbal behaviour :o, luckily I don't have a problem with automatically doing eye contact, etc.

I recently noticed that very empathetic girls are able to explain some of the subtler dynamics to me, if that counts as manual learning. Like, where I was baffled about how I managed to make some people uncomfortable with my "hyperrational mode" where I thought I was all correct and fair. It did take two attempts from someone before I would start to get it... I would somehow get a little sort of feelings based awareness imagining how I come off to others and how that affects them, and it was easier to remember that than rote-learning rules.

As for trying to do SUBTLE facial expressions, which is what I mentioned: that "practice" was not practice, it was just an experiment, I tried it only once or twice and that was just me being curious if I was any good at doing it. Nope lol. Nothing showed on my face or completely not what I had in mind. I will never learn subtle expressions, I guess. I have recently tried interpreting some of them (of people's) but the answer comes to me with a big delay and it's still only a rough guess then.


That interest that I had as a teenager, I don't want to talk about it too much, sorry. It's nothing "bad", it's pretty innocent stuff, but I just find the idea of talking about it too weird. (And boring, too. Would be boring to people, would be boring to myself too since I no longer care about the interest.) I can say it was to do with numbers a lot, though.

This sort of (automatic and strong) reaction is what makes me conventional with behaviour a lot of the time. It's definitely some sort of basic social awareness about the presentation of myself to others. It's a defensive avoidance of visibly unconventional behaviours more than actively trying to create some sort of image. If that tells you anything.


Hope I managed to clarify some things for you. Again, do ask for examples or anything where it's too vague :)



Last edited by itsme82 on 08 Apr 2017, 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

itsme82
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 183

08 Apr 2017, 6:24 pm

NikNak wrote:
Ah well if we're talking underlying psychological mechanism then (and again, this is from memory- I'm on my phone so pulling up references would be a pain) then I'd say there likely IS an overlap at a congnitive and neurological level. As you said, research is lacking but there has been evidence for certain processes taking part in specific parts of the brain (such as the amygdala) that result in symptoms of autism, OCD, depression... the list goes on.

They really have little idea as to the aetiology of autism or indeeed many conditions and there's question over the validity of diagnostic constructs as a whole but in short, there is a lot of overlap in symptoms.

And that's exactly what I was alluding too ;)


If you recall some key words about this kind of research (so I can look it up more), feel free to let me know. :) And heh, so we are on the same page. :)



bjornflanagan
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 12 Apr 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 35
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

08 Apr 2017, 11:28 pm

itsme82 wrote:

I realize the following is pretty long. So a very quick summary: I'm a 90% logical woman who can read some body language/facial expressions alright IRL, so I am 100% logical only online without such body language unless emotions are shown to me in an obvious enough way, having had way too much trouble with certain people due to that though. A too serious and aggressive know-it-all for their liking and sometimes if - on top of all that - I enter an extra hyperrational "anal" logical mode then no matter how much I try to tone down myself, it will end up extra bad. I also lack some people related experience due to my hearing issues. So all in all, I am sure I do miss some subtle social cues/dynamics, especially online. I try to not look "weird" IRL and I do have less of a problem IRL with people - but I want to fix the online stuff and some other people related stuff in general, which has been on my mind a LOT lately. (With that lately causing a LOT of stress subconsciously even if that mostly goes unnoticed by me.) Does all this make me qualify?
Hypothesis: your hyperlogical thought process is the rigid system or routine you utilize to confront an inherently irrational world.


Quote:
"Anyway, first more about the problem. I've had people "gang up" on me before in several online places or just get hated on by some individuals. Either openly or behind my back. With me never understanding what the problem was. Never realizing that a problem is developing until it comes out clearly.

I apparently can make people uncomfortable in arguments without them saying there is a problem until it's too late and they just end up hating me individually or do the "ganging up". I put that in quotes because it's a usually spontaneous thing with the "ganging up" against me, not an organized effort from people.

So is your system of thought causing social impairment?

Quote:
This is all online. IRL I cannot talk in bigger groups because my hearing isn't good enough for that. One on one is fine IRL too. I can talk in groups if there are no more than three people besides myself and those are OK too.

Were you born with hearing issues or was there an event that caused its loss?

Quote:
The thing is however, I don't do certain disinhibited expressions/actions in many things like I read about aspies.


I don't recall these either but that isn't to say they aren't there, I'm just not aware of them.

Quote:
I don't take every single sentence literally. I just argue in a strong style, and beyond that too, in technical or logical topics on these forums, I'll freely correct some things, give my opinion to educate them etc. People find me a know-it-all or too aggressive. I do like or at last don't mind heated arguments, for sure. But I'm not aggressive without a real point. Both online and IRL, though IRL I perceive different boundaries than online - stronger ones for sure. I have some aspects of body language at my disposal there, so that helps. (I don't mean subtle emotional cues, though. More like other cues about acceptable behaviour etc.)


Where I said I don't take everything literally - it does happen that I do. This mostly happens if I'm in my "technical mode" which is pretty often in these places. Unless the sentence was coming with a big emoticon or if is written in a way that the tone is VERY obvious... many people actually don't seem to be so good at making the tone of an online sentence so VERY obvious.

In that "technical mode" I'm just logical, fully impersonal, I've actually been accused of deliberately trying to show a hyperrational mask. Because it can be so incredibly unemotional that seems not natural to some people. Except I don't know if it's a mask really. I'm genuinely simply impersonal then, I am not pretending.
Still strikes me as logic ideation. I was under this spell for some time.

Quote:

More on being so um, logical. My logic is very distinct/concrete and incredibly detail oriented but also very thorough. It helps that I definitely do not always expose my thought processes of how I analyze things, especially not IRL with most people, since I just don't tend to be interested in that IRL, I'm more paying attention to other things instead and anyway, that stuff would be out of line behaviour.
What are you paying attention to?

Quote:
But I don't despise emotions, I never think of other people as "too emotional" or "irrational". I'm just not so in touch with some of them myself. And I have realized that I have these problems the most if I get in that too hyperrational mode, which yeah, is more likely to happen online. The more frequent know-it-all mode is still quite logical though so that can still offend or upset people, just maybe with less crazy results, though this depends on the specific people too. More okay IRL but - besides not being interested in stuff requiring that mode and being aware of some nonverbal aspects more - I talk less anyway, since I find talking draining.

Are emotions just irrelevant then? You said somewhere that you thought you have alexithemia. (I believe I have it too but not to the extreme that you convey; I believe mine is a result of some attachment issues but then again it could just be straight up wacky wiring).

Quote:
I took some asperger/autism tests online before, never qualified for it.
I'm not entirely sure if those quizzes can handle people with comorbid conditions. My wife, for example, I believe is on the spectrum but she didn't score typical AS. I think she has AS with the PDA behavior profile. As a child she watched and rewatched movies mimicking social behavior.
Her special interest was people which helped her pretend to be NT without even knowing why she was completely draining herself in doing so. Her socializing is automatic but not instinctual.


_________________
"A very common error: Having the courage of one's convictions; rather, it should be having the courage to attack one's own convictions."

***Friedrich Nietzsche***


bjornflanagan
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 12 Apr 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 35
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

08 Apr 2017, 11:43 pm

itsme82 wrote:

So, I think, I'm not AS because I can switch out of the too logical mode(s) into normal "realistic logic". I call it that because by default I'm still more a logical type than a people-oriented person. So not pervasive enough to qualify as the actual disorder.

The degree to which it has altered your social communication strikes me a pervasive. Your adherence to types of logical thought hinders your ability.

Quote:
(I think this is because, as I figured a long time ago, I just have enough of the instincts that AS people don't seem to. Btw, interestingly enough, it's partially mood dependent how effectively I can switch. Also I did bury myself in work too much for years and lost all connection to people even online then and that also affected my ability to connect to people, I kind of forgot it a bit, got rusty, whatnot.)
Autistic Burnout?

Quote:
So all in all, I may not be the best socially but I don't have the disorder itself. Still, looks like I'll find the forum useful for some things. In part because some social tips and tips on how people work are helpful in general even without being AS, I suppose. And in part because of the hyperrational "AS mode", I do need to get out of it in those certain situations and figuring out some people related stuff that I missed out on before due to my special circumstances (hearing).
I think the jury is still out on that.


_________________
"A very common error: Having the courage of one's convictions; rather, it should be having the courage to attack one's own convictions."

***Friedrich Nietzsche***


bjornflanagan
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 12 Apr 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 35
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

09 Apr 2017, 1:37 am

itsme82 wrote:

Hey. Thanks a lot for you trying to give such thorough help. :) That really really is nice of you even printing it out and reading it all. :o

No problem, I needed to apply myself analytically anyway.


Quote:
Essentially, what I'm really curious about is if you have input on what my issues with social stuff/people are, especially the 2nd part here, this is the main point really:

"1) Aloofness aspect (as per BAP, or "qualitative impairment in social interaction" for DSM-IV): I too easily get oblivious of connecting with people or how to even connect to people.
2) I don't know what this aspect is: Easily too much bluntness, missing subtler expressions, certain (many) jokes and their dynamics, and some broader social cues regarding (the more advanced kind of) diplomacy. Basic stuff is fine tho' and I never had to learn the basic stuff, it comes from instinct."


Let me add new information: I suspect I do have some OCPD and alexithymic traits, too, if that matters.

Does attachment disorder fit? I don't know what your childhood was like.

Quote:
OK, a few clarifications on the things you were wondering about:

With the goals thing, interesting thoughts. I would say, it's not pretension to try and look functional or normal. I don't get the idea of trying to look "functional". I do care about being "normal" though by automatically following many social norms. And then sometimes not other ones, lol - but I'm quite naturally conventional with many of them. I can give examples.

What do you mean by "NT expectations and responsibilities"? There are social norms, sure, if that's what you mean? And yes, I care to some degree how I'm seen by others, including some basic aspects of social status. Like, how I dress, stuff like that. It's just normal for me, does not feel forced.

I believe we can get to a level where it is automatic, that appearing to be NT isn't something actively thought about. It is dangerous to do it, however.

The expectations are more valuations (e.g. it is important to get a decent paying job in order to have a house, car, and or family).

Quote:
What are your AS traits that you sublimated?
I believe I took up smoking at 18 as an oral stim. Now I chew gum. Throughout my teenage years I developed a reputation as a listener and gained a decent social circle but the reason for listening was to figure a person out (I wanted to understand people's motivations and intentions and this was an obsessive special interest for me -it still is, of which you are on the receiving end now-). This gave me a better capacity for social interaction and also why I was able to join the debate club despite social anxieties. Those are all I can think of at the moment but I will continue to ruminate on the topic.

Quote:
Then, examples of the goals: winning certain races in sport or at least getting on podium. Making enough money to buy my own condo. Helping people (e.g. in online community but it can be IRL too) with my expertise by doing specific tasks or offer my creations for them* and give advice in general. Somehow all those are strong drives for me. This people-related stuff is very important for me, too. I really need the involvement with people in my own way, through this heavily task-oriented approach of offering my contributions. Again, not pretension.

*: e.g. I did some pieces of software, learnt some of that stuff just to help some people, but of course I found it intellectually interesting enough to be able to continue with it. Or, I wrote sports training plans, where I did already have the understanding, not purely learnt to make contributions.

I think someone on the spectrum can still value the same things as a NT. The crux of the matter is whether your hyperlogical system of thought qualifies as a RRBI.

I'm curious, do you have aphantasia? Your hyperlogical thought seems similar to my ability to analyze through raw conception rather than visualization.



Quote:
That interest that I had as a teenager, I don't want to talk about it too much, sorry. It's nothing "bad", it's pretty innocent stuff, but I just find the idea of talking about it too weird. (And boring, too. Would be boring to people, would be boring to myself too since I no longer care about the interest.) I can say it was to do with numbers a lot, though.

I could probably make an educated guess on a couple of possibilities. Was it a method of handling the social anxieties you mentioned at the same age?

Quote:
This sort of (automatic and strong) reaction is what makes me conventional with behaviour a lot of the time. It's definitely some sort of basic social awareness about the presentation of myself to others. It's a defensive avoidance of visibly unconventional behaviours more than actively trying to create some sort of image. If that tells you anything.
I think coping mechanisms create a persona of their own and its not an active thing. Like the listening persona I mentioned before. I really thought I was being a helpful listener but in retrospect the persona was a vehicle that allowed me to delve into a specific interest of what made people tick in their minds.

As for BAP, I think we are seeing a lot of distinction without a difference. ASD criteria is bound within a linguistic connotation of what each means but there is so much subtext that you have satellite diagnostics trying to explain the same thing. Is it an Apatosaur or Brontosaur?

Another take on RRBI, one can tell by its sudden absence. Do you become highly irritable if you are thrown off your daily routine? Also, even saying one has OCD tendencies is equivalent to RRBIs.

The best answer to your original post is determining if you have acquired a personality disorder or if you have been different since early childhood. If you say that you have been different since early childhood then there is a decent chance you have ASD.


_________________
"A very common error: Having the courage of one's convictions; rather, it should be having the courage to attack one's own convictions."

***Friedrich Nietzsche***


itsme82
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 183

09 Apr 2017, 5:26 am

bjornflanagan wrote:
No problem, I needed to apply myself analytically anyway.


Heh, OK. Glad I gave you an opportunity for that then. :)


Quote:
Hypothesis: your hyperlogical thought process is the rigid system or routine you utilize to confront an inherently irrational world.


Hmm, no, not exactly like that. It's more like, I approach some new and complex topics that way. Then when I built up the understanding and had a chance to apply it in practice too, it'll become a more flexible understanding ready to be easily applied on the move. The point here is, I cannot keep it that rigid as it is initially, it would not be natural or practical enough. Maybe it's just a way to familiarize myself with lots of new details if I feel the need to start that way, before I can get to move more freely.

Important: by default I don't expose my way of familiarizing myself with details and organizing them. It's actually tiring to share my thinking process, even in writing. With certain topics I did that though because there was no official documentation available, so I had to talk with people about it and that's what was too much for people. This was mainly about people related topics/systems/theories actually. :D See more below on that.

First though, let me say, I do have some routines and principles of course, to keep myself and things consistent, but the wording about "confronting an inherently irrational world" is slightly off somehow. Maybe because I don't mind being around certain emotional people. :) Also, a lot of how society is - like, the norms mentioned before - seems fine to me, not hard to understand by just existing in it, doesn't need that extra special analysis. Again, might be why the wording is off. Oh also, the word "confronting" is what's really "off" about the wording. That just doesn't fit somehow.

However, where you could say it's because of the world's complexity, is my having tried to analyze some people-related things in this way. Not the very basic social interactions, but more complex things, like, people's ways of thinking, and emotions (mine included), relationships. Before that, I never tried to analyze these, just got by somehow. I have not been finding this kind of analysis applied on people easy or natural at all however, and it seems like the approach I picked by learning about some systems about people was not really good or practical at all anyway - beyond some good bits that do work - so I'm phasing that out. It's a relief actually. So now I'm talking more to those empathetic girls (and spending more time with people overall). :) Seems better. :)

Quote:
So is your system of thought causing social impairment?


Not a system of thought itself but the way of communication in those cases. Me being too blunt, too "interrogating", stuff like that is what I was told. And, probably making people think too much to try and answer me. Is this what you were asking about?

Quote:
Were you born with hearing issues or was there an event that caused its loss?


The latter, I was very young though.

Quote:
I don't recall these either but that isn't to say they aren't there, I'm just not aware of them.


No one ever commented on such a thing for me (context: disinhibited expressions/actions) and I'm decently aware of visible behaviour of myself and of others.

Quote:
Still strikes me as logic ideation. I was under this spell for some time.


What does "logic ideation" mean? How did you get out of its "spell"?

Quote:
What are you paying attention to?


(IRL) The surroundings, navigation, what's going on in the moment, interactions with people, the task and its objective if I'm focused on one. Essentially, I don't like to think much while taking action, that would disconnect me from my awareness of the surroundings. I just think "on the move" to get around or organize things/people, or I do the task using what I'm already familiar with, familiar methods, my already existing understanding, none of that requires the deeper kind of analysis.

Quote:
Are emotions just irrelevant then? You said somewhere that you thought you have alexithemia. (I believe I have it too but not to the extreme that you convey; I believe mine is a result of some attachment issues but then again it could just be straight up wacky wiring).


I wouldn't say emotions are always irrelevant, just not in touch with them too well. I'm trying to learn a bit more emotional awareness though.

Quote:
My wife, for example, I believe is on the spectrum but she didn't score typical AS. I think she has AS with the PDA behavior profile. As a child she watched and rewatched movies mimicking social behavior.
Her special interest was people which helped her pretend to be NT without even knowing why she was completely draining herself in doing so. Her socializing is automatic but not instinctual.


Interesting. Would it be instinctual then if I never watched movies about social behaviour or anything like that?

I don't find the interaction itself very draining. I only find too much speaking noticeably draining, with putting out my thoughts continuously. I think that's an introversion trait.


Quote:
The degree to which it has altered your social communication strikes me a pervasive. Your adherence to types of logical thought hinders your ability.


Hmm, I developed that "hyperrational mode" a few years ago, or so, I think, as a result of dealing with topics needing the analysis (as I said above) and at the same time having had no opportunity for a long time to socialize with people. There could be a connection between these two things, yes.

But I was always a logical type. In kindergarten I was teaching the kids to count properly. :) So yeah, I was never a very social type and was never good at not basic subtle expressions but that on its own wouldn't be ASD as far as I understand. Only if nonverbal and other subtle aspects of communication are impaired severely enough along with having the RRBIs yeah?

Quote:
Autistic Burnout?


What's autistic burnout like? If you were talking about my burying myself in work, that was because I was into the work and earning nice money and earlier friends didn't seek me out for socializing and I forgot to seek them out, too.

Quote:
Does attachment disorder fit? I don't know what your childhood was like.


"Attachment Disorder is defined as the condition in which individuals have difficulty forming lasting relationships. They often show nearly a complete lack of ability to be genuinely affectionate with others. They typically fail to develop a conscience and do not learn to trust."

No, this doesn't fit to this extreme degree. A bit of avoidant dismissive tendencies but I had no problem bonding strongly with my mother, etc.

Quote:
I believe we can get to a level where it is automatic, that appearing to be NT isn't something actively thought about. It is dangerous to do it, however.


Hmm, what's dangerous about it? Can you explain more on this?

I never practiced trying to look normal or functional. I was just a kid then I was just a student and so on.

As for the "NT expectations" you listed - I don't really feel they are anything special.

Hmm, DSM-V that I finally got a copy of, says: "Adults who have developed compensation strategies for some social challenges still struggle in novel or unsupported situations and suffer from the effort and anxiety of consciously calculating what is socially intuitive for most individuals."

I can't relate to this. It would be too slow having to consciously calculate eye contact etc... It does sound like a nightmare imagining that. 8O So I can understand how it would be draining for AS people.

What I do is, I just pay attention to visible behaviour of people and what they say, and just somehow adjust along that. Kind of being in sync. I don't have conscious rules for that, can't articulate them beyond rules of basic politeness, saying hi, thanks, giving space, etc. I mean, I'm sure some people have analyzed out how all that social behaviour works so I don't doubt that it can be articulated into rules, but I never read up on that. Just wasn't ever interested in that.

Where I say being in sync, though, it's about externally visible things. Behaviour, visible (not too subtle) emotional expressions. Beyond these, I can't be in sync about people's unsaid internal motivations. I do know some people are a lot better at perceiving such subtle internal motivations though to me it always looks like speculation. Not interested in that. If someone tells me about what they think or feel, good, if not, then not interested.

Make sense?

Quote:
I believe I took up smoking at 18 as an oral stim. Now I chew gum. Throughout my teenage years I developed a reputation as a listener and gained a decent social circle but the reason for listening was to figure a person out (I wanted to understand people's motivations and intentions and this was an obsessive special interest for me -it still is, of which you are on the receiving end now-). This gave me a better capacity for social interaction and also why I was able to join the debate club despite social anxieties. Those are all I can think of at the moment but I will continue to ruminate on the topic.


Cool stuff about you figuring out people's motivations and intentions. If it's not obviously visible, I would never attempt to figure out that stuff. Again, it would be too uncomfortable trying to speculate about such not visible things.

I never had the need for any kind of stim. Just seems like unnecessary expenditure of energy to me based on what I saw in others.

Quote:
I think someone on the spectrum can still value the same things as a NT. The crux of the matter is whether your hyperlogical system of thought qualifies as a RRBI.


Good question. As I said I didn't always have this mode. I'd also call it a bad habit with trying to discuss those thoughts with people too much (in place of socializing), because I'm much better off when there is official documentation available on stuff that's clear and well organized. Then I can just read that and add my own thoughts on it all on my own. But there isn't always neat documentation or the topic is more complex than what it covers...

Quote:
I'm curious, do you have aphantasia? Your hyperlogical thought seems similar to my ability to analyze through raw conception rather than visualization.


I looked up aphantasia, no, I don't have that, though I don't analyze via visualization. What's "raw conception"?

Quote:
Was it a method of handling the social anxieties you mentioned at the same age?


No, just a pastime. I got out of the social anxiety by suddenly having had enough of it at a point and deciding that it wasn't "me". I got a bit angry over it, I think, and then most of my earlier way of being came back, I was again able to talk to new people in school, etc.

When at the end of high school and at university I felt too much of some sort of stress by just being around people (not interacting!), that wasn't the social anxiety, not sure what it was. It went away with a couple of years of staying at home and never came back. Also went away as I made myself more comfortable around people again when I started importing and selling some things as a side business and had to meet a lot of new people for that.

Quote:
I think coping mechanisms create a persona of their own and its not an active thing. Like the listening persona I mentioned before. I really thought I was being a helpful listener but in retrospect the persona was a vehicle that allowed me to delve into a specific interest of what made people tick in their minds.


I didn't really understand what you meant by "active thing". I'm a good listener too, as long as I'm also heard by the partner.

Quote:
Another take on RRBI, one can tell by its sudden absence. Do you become highly irritable if you are thrown off your daily routine? Also, even saying one has OCD tendencies is equivalent to RRBIs.


My daily routine is not 100% fixed by default, so I can't interpret being "thrown off" it. Have you got examples of that?

I do have routines but they can change a bit, I don't keep a strict order of steps for many things where the order of steps doesn't matter. If I have to stay at a different place or stuff like that, no problem. I'll just get used to it, no hiccups with that. Is that what you were asking about?

I was saying OCPD traits, not OCD. Though I have had some little - sometimes not so little - OCD too but I've recently learned to let go of it more easily. The OCPD is about my task orientation, and how I'm actually rigid with wanting to do tasks well and thoroughly, with a bit too much detailed organization, etc. It's not extreme though (I have a good degree of pragmatism that helps).

I don't believe either OCD or OCPD is about ASD though. I don't know if any underlying psychological mechanisms are shared between them, of course. But, ASD's RRBI seems more like, fixation on small things that are not all that functional or practical, like eating the same food or sameness in other small things...? I can't relate to any of that extremely repetitive behaviour stuff as described and never did.

DSM-V does mention "rigid thinking patterns" so I can see what you were getting at with that part of my thinking possibly being an RRBI. But no, I don't miss the "hyperrational mode" when I'm not in it.

I will always have logical tendencies though, and some people will always see me as rigidly adhering to my opinions. Now whether that's just an OCPD trait, that's a good question. I actually contrasted OCPD traits with BAP traits a few posts above.

Quote:
The best answer to your original post is determining if you have acquired a personality disorder or if you have been different since early childhood. If you say that you have been different since early childhood then there is a decent chance you have ASD.


I don't even like to use the wording "different", I'm too conventional for wanting to have all that quirkiness. Again, that's my avoidance of the visibly unconventional. So I can't say I ever consciously felt "different".

But obviously I was "different" by being the best student in school while at the same time getting into conflicts and then being excluded in middle school... In kindergarten, before school, things were a lot calmer, I was just quite introverted but no real conflicts and I had a couple of friends just fine. And taught the kids basic maths as I said. :) Again, I didn't speak much otherwise, if I did, I would voice some of my opinions on how things are correctly done. That was about it. So that "know-it-all mode" was present, the "hyperrational mode" wasn't.

Again, going back to DSM-V here about whether ASD (as in, Autistic Spectrum Disorder) applies to my childhood. The mildest level of RRBI that qualifies as clinically significant impairment - enough to require support - according to DSM-V: "Inflexibility of behaviour causes significant interference with functioning in one or more contexts. Difficulty switching between activities. Problems of organization and planning hamper independence."

I can't relate to any of this and I never had this problem as a kid either.

This is why I liked the BAP concept - that's the idea of subclinical AS-like traits. But again, I brought up that contrast with OCPD traits. I haven't got a final conclusion on that yet beyond noting how BAP and all these things aren't very well researched just yet.


Let me know if all this gives you a better picture.



Last edited by itsme82 on 09 Apr 2017, 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

NikNak
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 6 Aug 2016
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 223
Location: Scotland

09 Apr 2017, 5:52 am

You do strike me as someone who may be on the spectrum.

You seem to think about thinking which is something my psychologist brought up about myself in regards to my autism.

Just something to think about :)


_________________
Diagnosed ASD Aug 2016, confirmed Dec 2016.
Also have OCD and various 'issues'.


itsme82
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 183

09 Apr 2017, 5:55 am

NikNak wrote:
You do strike me as someone who may be on the spectrum.

You seem to think about thinking which is something my psychologist brought up about myself in regards to my autism.

Just something to think about :)


I'm not aware of that trait being specific to ASD.

I do very much like cognitive psychology, yes, if that's what you are getting at. :) (Let me know if I misunderstood you.)



NikNak
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 6 Aug 2016
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 223
Location: Scotland

09 Apr 2017, 6:20 am

itsme82 wrote:
NikNak wrote:
You do strike me as someone who may be on the spectrum.

You seem to think about thinking which is something my psychologist brought up about myself in regards to my autism.

Just something to think about :)


I'm not aware of that trait being specific to ASD.

I do very much like cognitive psychology, yes, if that's what you are getting at. :) (Let me know if I misunderstood you.)


It was my therapist who said this but I'm also about to graduate from my psychology undergraduate degree.

It's not specific but when taken into consideration with the clinical traits and the overall manner in which someone presents, then I suppose in a clinicians mind it's indicative of ASD? I doubt it counted toward my diagnosis but it's something that has been brought up more than once. My therapist is very experienced and trained in ASD and I underwent a full assessment using multiple measures- essentially I trust her opinion.


_________________
Diagnosed ASD Aug 2016, confirmed Dec 2016.
Also have OCD and various 'issues'.


itsme82
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 183

09 Apr 2017, 9:05 am

NikNak wrote:
itsme82 wrote:
NikNak wrote:
You do strike me as someone who may be on the spectrum.

You seem to think about thinking which is something my psychologist brought up about myself in regards to my autism.

Just something to think about :)


I'm not aware of that trait being specific to ASD.

I do very much like cognitive psychology, yes, if that's what you are getting at. :) (Let me know if I misunderstood you.)


It was my therapist who said this but I'm also about to graduate from my psychology undergraduate degree.


Cool about the psychology degree. :) Then clearly that was just your therapist reading too much into things. Not everything has to be ASD related even about a person who does have a diagnosis...


Quote:
It's not specific but when taken into consideration with the clinical traits and the overall manner in which someone presents, then I suppose in a clinicians mind it's indicative of ASD? I doubt it counted toward my diagnosis but it's something that has been brought up more than once. My therapist is very experienced and trained in ASD and I underwent a full assessment using multiple measures- essentially I trust her opinion.


I absolutely cannot see how the interest in how the mind works has anything to do with ASD.

That makes the definition too broad and meaningless if trying to connect everything to it.

I would say it makes way more sense to just see it as an intellectual interest, no more, no less. In your case too and mine too.

Of course, if you see anything else about my presentation, etc. that makes you think of ASD, feel free to say so.