Board index › General Discussion › General Autism Discussion

Having little to nothing in common with neurotypicals

Page 3 of 4 [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,624
Location: Long Island, New York

30 Dec 2018, 12:50 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
The idea that there are fundamental, irreconcilable differences between NTs and NDs is belied by the fact that autism is not an absolute state but a spectrum on which everybody sits regardless of his neurotype.

I go with this. Autistics closer to NT’s on the spectrum can partially understand NT’s.

Nobody, not even the most skilled Theory of Mind NT’s can fully understand another person but they can partially understand. This can come via similarities, reading and watching and listening. Autistics are capable of this to varying degrees.

The neurotype differences presents significant obstacles. But are they any more then sex, class, etc.?


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


ezbzbfcg2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,977
Location: New Jersey, USA

30 Dec 2018, 12:57 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
The phrase "we'll have to agree to disgree" means "I don't want to argue with you about it." Sandpiper has told you that twice, but you've ignored it and continued to argue.


Well, I have Asperger's, you see, and take things quite literally. To me, "we'll have to agree to disagree" always meant, "We have two different views on the topic at hand, and we're never going to reach a consensus on the subject, so let's not bother to talk about it further." The caveat being that both parties are "on the same page" in knowing what is they disagree about.

I felt like they weren't understanding me in the first place. So, I tried to clarify. If you or anyone else doesn't want to talk about it, fine. Simply don't respond to me. But I will make an attempt to clarify when people respond in ways that have nothing to do with what I'm saying. Notice, sandpiper didn't simply say "let's stop talking and agree to disagree;" rather, she interjected with things that made it clear she didn't even understand what I was getting at (or what she was disagreeing with, or what I was saying) in the first place. Same with cyclops.



ezbzbfcg2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,977
Location: New Jersey, USA

30 Dec 2018, 1:25 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The neurotype differences presents significant obstacles. But are they any more then sex, class, etc.?
Yes. That's the whole point. It's an actual sensation in perception we can't even fathom.

Prometheus18 wrote:
There are significant differences, but the difference is one of degree rather than kind. Unless you can point out what particular quality is wholly lacking in the autistic population; if it's primarily social skills (for example), then there is a social quotient on the analogy of an intelligence quotient. Nobody scores zero on an IQ test other than a dead man, though obviously some score lower than others.


I'm saying it is a difference of kind (as in sight vs. blindness). You used social skills as an example. It's not about skill. Skills are learned, and a person's learning ability may vary. Now, you were taught about different colors and shapes and whatnot, but no one taught you how to actually SEE, it just happens naturally when you open your eyes. I think NTs experience a sensation natural and normal to them that is seems mundane and believed to be universal. But if we, for a moment, could experience it, we'd be blown away. It's something we don't have.

I can't show it to you. I can't make the blind see either.



ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,200

30 Dec 2018, 1:27 pm

^
Whatever.



Prometheus18
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Aug 2018
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,866

30 Dec 2018, 1:44 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The neurotype differences presents significant obstacles. But are they any more then sex, class, etc.?
Yes. That's the whole point. It's an actual sensation in perception we can't even fathom.

Prometheus18 wrote:
There are significant differences, but the difference is one of degree rather than kind. Unless you can point out what particular quality is wholly lacking in the autistic population; if it's primarily social skills (for example), then there is a social quotient on the analogy of an intelligence quotient. Nobody scores zero on an IQ test other than a dead man, though obviously some score lower than others.


I'm saying it is a difference of kind (as in sight vs. blindness). You used social skills as an example. It's not about skill. Skills are learned, and a person's learning ability may vary. Now, you were taught about different colors and shapes and whatnot, but no one taught you how to actually SEE, it just happens naturally when you open your eyes. I think NTs experience a sensation natural and normal to them that is seems mundane and believed to be universal. But if we, for a moment, could experience it, we'd be blown away. It's something we don't have.

I can't show it to you. I can't make the blind see either.


My use of the term "skill" here was meant in a different sense from the one in which you have used it; "ability" would have been better.

At any rate, I still don't see how what you've said answers my initial objection; namely, that everybody, including NTs is, in a certain sense, autistic, at least according to scholarship. A diagnosis of an ASD takes place once the extent of the qualities in question is pathological, the threshold for which is itself contentious. Even within the autistic community, there are those who are "more autistic" than others. If what you're saying were true, it would be theoretically possible to point to a man with the minimum possible degree of autism to qualify for a diagnosis and another man with the maximum possible degree of autism not to qualify for a diagnosis and to point out some fundamental difference between the two. This would be a sensory difference, according to you. A sense implies something being sensed; in the case of sight, light waves; in the case of hearing, sound waves. What would this be in the above case?



XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

30 Dec 2018, 1:57 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
The idea that there are fundamental, irreconcilable differences between NTs and NDs is belied by the fact that autism is not an absolute state but a spectrum on which everybody sits regardless of his neurotype.


Look man, I'll keep with the blindness analogy. Maybe one blind man sees total blackness, another can kind of see a slightly lighter shade of dark when standing in sunlight, but it's still solid nothingness. Both are on the blind end of the spectrum regardless of where they fall on that side of the line. Maybe you have 20/20 vision and your friend needs glasses to see better. You're still on the sighted side of the spectrum. There are indeed differences.

The same holds true with AS vs NT...regardless of spectrum. A line exists somewhere.


There are significant differences, but the difference is one of degree rather than kind. Unless you can point out what particular quality is wholly lacking in the autistic population; if it's primarily social skills (for example), then there is a social quotient on the analogy of an intelligence quotient. Nobody scores zero on an IQ test other than a dead man, though obviously some score lower than others.


^ Another good point. You're on a roll today.

Oh, and fun fact: when I took my IQ test, the psychologist gave me a "social IQ" test on which I scored in the "gifted" range.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)


Prometheus18
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Aug 2018
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,866

30 Dec 2018, 2:04 pm

Thanks and thanks.

Well, there's of course the Asperger's quotient itself, which as a concept also rules out any all-or-nothing assumptions about the perceptual characteristics of those with ASD.

Like yourself, my score on the above was also at variance with my AS diagnosis. The same goes for the RDOS test.



ezbzbfcg2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,977
Location: New Jersey, USA

30 Dec 2018, 2:20 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
At any rate, I still don't see how what you've said answers my initial objection... A diagnos...


I'll send you a PM with elaboration if you wish.

(Though you don't agree with me, at least you're now pondering what I've been hinting at, even if it doesn't make sense to you yet.)



Prometheus18
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Aug 2018
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,866

30 Dec 2018, 2:34 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
At any rate, I still don't see how what you've said answers my initial objection... A diagnos...


I'll send you a PM with elaboration if you wish.

(Though you don't agree with me, at least you're now pondering what I've been hinting at, even if it doesn't make sense to you yet.)


Oh, I understood what you were saying from the very beginning, only I think you've caught on to an analogy which, although alluring, is inapplicable. I recommend that you read some literature on the Philosophy of Mind, which is an endlessly fascinating subject.

Yes, I'd like to continue the discussion via PM, though in your own time.



ezbzbfcg2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,977
Location: New Jersey, USA

30 Dec 2018, 2:37 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
Oh, I understood what you were saying from the very beginning, only I think you've caught on to an analogy which, although alluring, is inapplicable. I recommend that you read some literature on the Philosophy of Mind, which is an endlessly fascinating subject.

Yes, I'd like to continue the discussion via PM, though in your own time.


By "analogy," I think you mean theory or possibility. But it's not necessarily alluring, though very intriguing. Will bow out for now and PM you in the near future.



Raleigh
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Jul 2014
Age: 125
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 34,585
Location: Out of my mind

30 Dec 2018, 3:42 pm

Mapofsteel wrote:
I often feel that I have little, if anything, in common with neurotypicals, and even if I do, it does not manifest in me the same way it does in them. Does anyone else ever feel this way?

I feel I have quite a lot in common with a range of NTs.
We certainly have shared interests, even though my interests may be more on the technical side and theirs on the social side.
I don't understand some of them 100% but why do you need to?


_________________
It's like I'm sleepwalking


Prometheus18
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Aug 2018
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,866

30 Dec 2018, 3:52 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
Oh, I understood what you were saying from the very beginning, only I think you've caught on to an analogy which, although alluring, is inapplicable. I recommend that you read some literature on the Philosophy of Mind, which is an endlessly fascinating subject.

Yes, I'd like to continue the discussion via PM, though in your own time.


By "analogy," I think you mean theory or possibility. But it's not necessarily alluring, though very intriguing. Will bow out for now and PM you in the near future.


By "analogy", I meant the analogy with blindness. See you soon.



LaetiBlabla
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 981
Location: Earth

30 Dec 2018, 4:02 pm

So, ezbzbfcg2, what are we missing according to you? (I was not agreeing with you by the way, hence I asked the question)



LaetiBlabla
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 981
Location: Earth

30 Dec 2018, 4:10 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
There's a whole level of perception they have and we don't.

I was saying just opposite... I think you misunderstood my post i'm afraid.



LaetiBlabla
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 981
Location: Earth

30 Dec 2018, 4:16 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
LaetiBlabla wrote:
I think ezbzbfcg2 meant by "We don't know what we are missing" that we would not be able to understand NTs and though we don't know what we are missing. ezbzbfcg2 is speaking about something we would be completely unable to understand in the way NTs perceive the world. I'm eager to know...


LaetiBlabla, thank you for addressing what I was actually talking about. Maybe I didn't do the best job articulating it, but if you re-read everything I've said since my first elaboration, everything I predicted came true. A bunch of self-centered answers followed by people "disagreeing" with me while not even comprehending what I was saying. And you're correct, IstominFan also fell into this trap of speaking about herself and missing the mark completely. She described the typical outcome of her impairment.

I never said we can't be friends with or get along with NTs. Not at all what I was getting at. You're the only one who seems to get it. There's a whole level of perception they have and we don't. We don't even know what it is to feel it. Talking with them and "having an open mind" won't ever truly give you the natural NT sensory perception.

Explain a rainbow to a blind man all you want...he might think he gets it, but if all he's ever seen if blackness his whole life, words like red and blue and green are utterly meaningless...even though these words do have meaning for the majority of people (as most people can see).

Perhaps I'll start another thread (this one wasn't "mine" to begin with) or you can PM me. Thank you for at least comprehending my point.


all your post means that you understand nothing to my post which you quote half on purpose and then you dare saying that others read you wrong and misunderstand you. You are the only one here who understands nothing, i'm sorry



LaetiBlabla
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 981
Location: Earth

30 Dec 2018, 4:25 pm

Here is the complete post, please read again

LaetiBlabla wrote:
I think ezbzbfcg2 meant by "We don't know what we are missing" that we would not be able to understand NTs and though we don't know what we are missing. ezbzbfcg2 is speaking about something we would be completely unable to understand in the way NTs perceive the world. I'm eager to know... I think NTs lack of a true deep consciousness, they only have a well developed self-consciousness, no global consciousness, and they don't know what they are doing. As an aspie, you need a lot of mercy and a very open mind to go and meet them in their tight selfish world, most of them.