09 Feb 2021, 11:47 am
09 Feb 2021, 12:05 pm
Jiheisho wrote:
Clueless2017 wrote:
Accumulative anecdotal evidence could be strong EVIDENCE...
It could be, but it needs to be tested. For example, the whole MMR vaccinations cause autism argument was founded on anecdotal evidence of noticing the MRR vaccine schedule and the common onset of autistic symptoms coincided. Research showed that there was a correlation, but there was no associated cause. It was just a coincidence. Now, that idea that vaccinations cause autism is in the world and it is very dangerous.
This speaker in this video also stated he noticed that these children were healthy babies, it was only later that their autism was noticed. See a pattern? It is the same argument as the vaccine-autism argument.
Yes, making observations can lead to some very important discoveries. But making conclusions from anecdotal observation is not enough and also dangerous. Observations are just the start of the process.
... ... ...
I totally agree that anecdotal evidence, in and of itself, tends to be unreliable because it is subjective...
And i am so glad you bring-up the topic of the vaccines...Because, as a Legal Assistant with one decade of experience who specialized in civil litigation, i must tell you that the argument can be made both ways...And sadly, the party (generally, the side that counts with the monetary resources) that hires the best experts to testify on their behalf will prevail in a court of law...Sad but true
Furthermore, you reminded me of a syndrome experienced by US soldiers back in the 80's or 90's...If my recollection is correct, they attributed their health afflictions to combos of vaccines administered to them before been sent overseas...Did they file a lawsuit against the US government?...I don't know...If they did file a class-action, did they settled the case out of court?...If so, as part of the settlement agreement in closed doors, were they barred from talking publicly about the case?...Where am i going with this line of reasoning?...Sometimes, we will never know the truth, because of the established system...And frankly, if there was any legal merit to the claims made by these soldiers, i am scared to think about the harm combos of vaccines could have caused small children...
And so, yes, more research needs to be done...In the worst case scenario, no cure will be found...But at least scientists may find effective treatments that at least improve the quality of life of wonderful people on the spectrum...These discoveries may come too late for my beloved husband; but they could benefit future generations...
Post-Script: By the way, it took the tobacco industry more than two decades to acknowledge--and only because they were forced by a court of law--that they were 'killing' their most loyal consumers...And were then directing their advertisement to the younger generations in an effort to find a 'replacement' for the many consumers they were 'killing'...How long will it take other industries to acknowledge the harm they may be causing???...We may not know in our lifetime...
09 Feb 2021, 12:39 pm
Rexi wrote:
It's also usually what I hear from people in the spectrum what they believe, and my psychologist had stated that unsocializing me and not teaching me to communicate had made me skilless in life. That is due to the parenting.
I am of the opinion that had I been raised healthily I would have much more fitting in skills and less anxiety and social fear. Also what happened in class and the way I was taught to deal with things had set the way for my development and the way I coped with things. Passive.
It definitely didn't make me autistic but it made me worse and lesser fit in. I notice people in better families on the spectrum have less issues with bullying and not fitting in, feeling alone and trust issues towards the world.
It's worth more research like he said.
I laughed at 'pop psychology' because he is a musician.
Fnord has no idea how funny he can be when he's serious. But that can happen with anyone. Then again some spectrum people laugh at funerals.
How can one know if it's intended as sarcasm or a joke, in text? I guess this time it was not. Then his long reply I thought was a joke because it's so long and insistent.
Then again it's sometimes hard for me to tell with autistic people if they're joking or they took offense.
I am of the opinion that had I been raised healthily I would have much more fitting in skills and less anxiety and social fear. Also what happened in class and the way I was taught to deal with things had set the way for my development and the way I coped with things. Passive.
It definitely didn't make me autistic but it made me worse and lesser fit in. I notice people in better families on the spectrum have less issues with bullying and not fitting in, feeling alone and trust issues towards the world.
It's worth more research like he said.
I laughed at 'pop psychology' because he is a musician.
Fnord has no idea how funny he can be when he's serious. But that can happen with anyone. Then again some spectrum people laugh at funerals.
How can one know if it's intended as sarcasm or a joke, in text? I guess this time it was not. Then his long reply I thought was a joke because it's so long and insistent.
Then again it's sometimes hard for me to tell with autistic people if they're joking or they took offense.
... ... ...
Rexi, i have very strong maternal instincts, but no children of my own...I did raised one niece and one nephew as my own for one decade...And to date, they fill my heart with joy...Still, each time i read you, my heart bends towards you as if you came out of my womb...Oh how i wish you were my daughter
...I absolutely love your candor ...Don't ever change ...By the way, my maternal instincts are also triggered by @Joe90 who i also have in a very high esteem for different reasons...Sending you both a prolonged virtual hug that lasts at least 20 seconds for the health of your physical and figurative HEART... 
09 Feb 2021, 12:44 pm
Clueless2017 wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Clueless2017 wrote:
Accumulative anecdotal evidence could be strong EVIDENCE...
It could be, but it needs to be tested. For example, the whole MMR vaccinations cause autism argument was founded on anecdotal evidence of noticing the MRR vaccine schedule and the common onset of autistic symptoms coincided. Research showed that there was a correlation, but there was no associated cause. It was just a coincidence. Now, that idea that vaccinations cause autism is in the world and it is very dangerous.
This speaker in this video also stated he noticed that these children were healthy babies, it was only later that their autism was noticed. See a pattern? It is the same argument as the vaccine-autism argument.
Yes, making observations can lead to some very important discoveries. But making conclusions from anecdotal observation is not enough and also dangerous. Observations are just the start of the process.
... ... ...
I totally agree that anecdotal evidence, in and of itself, tends to be unreliable because it is subjective...
And i am so glad you bring-up the topic of the vaccines...Because, as a Legal Assistant with one decade of experience who specialized in civil litigation, i must tell you that the argument can be made both ways...And sadly, the party (generally, the side that counts with the monetary resources) that hires the best experts to testify on their behalf will prevail in a court of law...Sad but true
Furthermore, you reminded me of a syndrome experienced by US soldiers back in the 80's or 90's...If my recollection is correct, they attributed their health afflictions to combos of vaccines administered to them before been sent overseas...Did they file a lawsuit against the US government?...I don't know...If they did file a class-action, did they settled the case out of court?...If so, as part of the settlement agreement in closed doors, were they barred from talking publicly about the case?...Where am i going with this line of reasoning?...Sometimes, we will never know the truth, because of the established system...And frankly, if there was any legal merit to the claims made by these soldiers, i am scared to think about the harm combos of vaccines could have caused small children...
And so, yes, more research needs to be done...In the worst case scenario, no cure will be found...But at least scientists may find effective treatments that at least improve the quality of life of wonderful people on the spectrum...These discoveries may come too late for my beloved husband; but they could benefit future generations...
Post-Script: By the way, it took the tobacco industry more than two decades to acknowledge--and only because they were forced by a court of law--that they were 'killing' their most loyal consumers...And were then directing their advertisement to the younger generations in an effort to find a 'replacement' for the many consumers they were 'killing'...How long will it take other industries to acknowledge the harm they may be causing???...We may not know in our lifetime...
I just want to make sure I understand you. You seem to imply there is an actual connection between MRR vaccines and autism. The science does not show that. And this science is done by independent researchers. And to be clear, there is no link between MRR vaccines and autism. This myth of a connection has resulted in deaths from the diseases the vaccine inoculates people against. Vaccine hesitation is a serious problem and the anti-vaxx lobby has made it worse.
And while it is true industry will protect its markets, you will note that the tobacco industry was challenged by actual science showing the link between cancer and smoking.
The methods employed by the anti-vaxx groups and tobacco industry are the same: they spread doubt by creating false arguments. Unfortunately, this type of misinformation is readily taken up by the public. And yes, the legal system is built by those that have the most power. But we also tend to vote for legislators that defend that power. But it is possible to change that. The ADA is a good example.
As far as the idea of a "cure" for autism, that is a controversial position in the autism community. There are aspects of autism that I and others would like to find solutions for: sensory issues, anxiety, depression, etc. But that is not the same as a cure, but addressing quality of life. But we recognize that some of our community are greatly impacted by the disorder and so a cure is also wanted. Personally, I like the way my autistic mind sees the world.
09 Feb 2021, 12:57 pm
Jiheisho wrote:
Clueless2017 wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Clueless2017 wrote:
Accumulative anecdotal evidence could be strong EVIDENCE...
It could be, but it needs to be tested. For example, the whole MMR vaccinations cause autism argument was founded on anecdotal evidence of noticing the MRR vaccine schedule and the common onset of autistic symptoms coincided. Research showed that there was a correlation, but there was no associated cause. It was just a coincidence. Now, that idea that vaccinations cause autism is in the world and it is very dangerous.
This speaker in this video also stated he noticed that these children were healthy babies, it was only later that their autism was noticed. See a pattern? It is the same argument as the vaccine-autism argument.
Yes, making observations can lead to some very important discoveries. But making conclusions from anecdotal observation is not enough and also dangerous. Observations are just the start of the process.
... ... ...
I totally agree that anecdotal evidence, in and of itself, tends to be unreliable because it is subjective...
And i am so glad you bring-up the topic of the vaccines...Because, as a Legal Assistant with one decade of experience who specialized in civil litigation, i must tell you that the argument can be made both ways...And sadly, the party (generally, the side that counts with the monetary resources) that hires the best experts to testify on their behalf will prevail in a court of law...Sad but true
Furthermore, you reminded me of a syndrome experienced by US soldiers back in the 80's or 90's...If my recollection is correct, they attributed their health afflictions to combos of vaccines administered to them before been sent overseas...Did they file a lawsuit against the US government?...I don't know...If they did file a class-action, did they settled the case out of court?...If so, as part of the settlement agreement in closed doors, were they barred from talking publicly about the case?...Where am i going with this line of reasoning?...Sometimes, we will never know the truth, because of the established system...And frankly, if there was any legal merit to the claims made by these soldiers, i am scared to think about the harm combos of vaccines could have caused small children...
And so, yes, more research needs to be done...In the worst case scenario, no cure will be found...But at least scientists may find effective treatments that at least improve the quality of life of wonderful people on the spectrum...These discoveries may come too late for my beloved husband; but they could benefit future generations...
Post-Script: By the way, it took the tobacco industry more than two decades to acknowledge--and only because they were forced by a court of law--that they were 'killing' their most loyal consumers...And were then directing their advertisement to the younger generations in an effort to find a 'replacement' for the many consumers they were 'killing'...How long will it take other industries to acknowledge the harm they may be causing???...We may not know in our lifetime...
I just want to make sure I understand you. You seem to imply there is an actual connection between MRR vaccines and autism. The science does not show that. And this science is done by independent researchers. And to be clear, there is no link between MRR vaccines and autism. This myth of a connection has resulted in deaths from the diseases the vaccine inoculates people against. Vaccine hesitation is a serious problem and the anti-vaxx lobby has made it worse.
And while it is true industry will protect its markets, you will note that the tobacco industry was challenged by actual science showing the link between cancer and smoking.
The methods employed by the anti-vaxx groups and tobacco industry are the same: they spread doubt by creating false arguments. Unfortunately, this type of misinformation is readily taken up by the public. And yes, the legal system is built by those that have the most power. But we also tend to vote for legislators that defend that power. But it is possible to change that. The ADA is a good example.
As far as the idea of a "cure" for autism, that is a controversial position in the autism community. There are aspects of autism that I and others would like to find solutions for: sensory issues, anxiety, depression, etc. But that is not the same as a cure, but addressing quality of life. But we recognize that some of our community are greatly impacted by the disorder and so a cure is also wanted. Personally, I like the way my autistic mind sees the world.
... ... ...
Yes, you are understanding me...Thank you...And i am understanding you...All that i mentioned above, you were already aware of...Great!...And thank you also for bringing up some important distinctions between the above-mentioned cases...I really do appreciate it, because i am here in WP primarily to learn...To better understand ASD, so that i can better understand my beloved (Aspie) husband and better love him
I will only add that i am aware that some of you on the spectrum are not interested in finding a 'cure' per se...Personally, i fell in love with my beloved husband's logical brain and higher intellect
...So, i don't want him to change that wish i fell in love with ...I just wish the scientific community and the public at large had a better understanding of ASD with the aim to improve the quality of life of those affected...
09 Feb 2021, 1:04 pm
Clueless2017 wrote:
I just wish the scientific community and the public at large had a better understanding of ASD with the aim to improve the quality of life of those affected...
Absolutely. I do not fault the scientific community--it is a really hard problem to solve. The public at large I am a little less generous with--a little compassion and empathy can go a long way (and they were given the gift of empathy, so there is little excuse
)
Dear_one
Veteran
Joined: 2 Feb 2008
Age: 76
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,721
Location: Where the Great Plains meet the Northern Pines
09 Feb 2021, 1:36 pm
Jiheisho wrote:
Clueless2017 wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Clueless2017 wrote:
Accumulative anecdotal evidence could be strong EVIDENCE...
It could be, but it needs to be tested. For example, the whole MMR vaccinations cause autism argument was founded on anecdotal evidence of noticing the MRR vaccine schedule and the common onset of autistic symptoms coincided. Research showed that there was a correlation, but there was no associated cause. It was just a coincidence. Now, that idea that vaccinations cause autism is in the world and it is very dangerous.
This speaker in this video also stated he noticed that these children were healthy babies, it was only later that their autism was noticed. See a pattern? It is the same argument as the vaccine-autism argument.
Yes, making observations can lead to some very important discoveries. But making conclusions from anecdotal observation is not enough and also dangerous. Observations are just the start of the process.
... ... ...
I totally agree that anecdotal evidence, in and of itself, tends to be unreliable because it is subjective...
And i am so glad you bring-up the topic of the vaccines...Because, as a Legal Assistant with one decade of experience who specialized in civil litigation, i must tell you that the argument can be made both ways...And sadly, the party (generally, the side that counts with the monetary resources) that hires the best experts to testify on their behalf will prevail in a court of law...Sad but true
Furthermore, you reminded me of a syndrome experienced by US soldiers back in the 80's or 90's...If my recollection is correct, they attributed their health afflictions to combos of vaccines administered to them before been sent overseas...Did they file a lawsuit against the US government?...I don't know...If they did file a class-action, did they settled the case out of court?...If so, as part of the settlement agreement in closed doors, were they barred from talking publicly about the case?...Where am i going with this line of reasoning?...Sometimes, we will never know the truth, because of the established system...And frankly, if there was any legal merit to the claims made by these soldiers, i am scared to think about the harm combos of vaccines could have caused small children...
And so, yes, more research needs to be done...In the worst case scenario, no cure will be found...But at least scientists may find effective treatments that at least improve the quality of life of wonderful people on the spectrum...These discoveries may come too late for my beloved husband; but they could benefit future generations...
Post-Script: By the way, it took the tobacco industry more than two decades to acknowledge--and only because they were forced by a court of law--that they were 'killing' their most loyal consumers...And were then directing their advertisement to the younger generations in an effort to find a 'replacement' for the many consumers they were 'killing'...How long will it take other industries to acknowledge the harm they may be causing???...We may not know in our lifetime...
I just want to make sure I understand you. You seem to imply there is an actual connection between MRR vaccines and autism. The science does not show that. And this science is done by independent researchers. And to be clear, there is no link between MRR vaccines and autism. This myth of a connection has resulted in deaths from the diseases the vaccine inoculates people against. Vaccine hesitation is a serious problem and the anti-vaxx lobby has made it worse.
And while it is true industry will protect its markets, you will note that the tobacco industry was challenged by actual science showing the link between cancer and smoking.
The methods employed by the anti-vaxx groups and tobacco industry are the same: they spread doubt by creating false arguments. Unfortunately, this type of misinformation is readily taken up by the public. And yes, the legal system is built by those that have the most power. But we also tend to vote for legislators that defend that power. But it is possible to change that. The ADA is a good example.
As far as the idea of a "cure" for autism, that is a controversial position in the autism community. There are aspects of autism that I and others would like to find solutions for: sensory issues, anxiety, depression, etc. But that is not the same as a cure, but addressing quality of life. But we recognize that some of our community are greatly impacted by the disorder and so a cure is also wanted. Personally, I like the way my autistic mind sees the world.
Parents didn't just notice AS symptoms emerging around the time of vaccinations, and that does tie this thread together. They noticed a sudden onset from the date of vaccination. In my case, the problem was not the contents of the shot, it was the experience of being taken to a very strange place and hurt. My attitude toward my parents changed radically, from trust to suspicion. Abuse catalysed the appearance of my AS, it didn't cause it.
While I'm here, why does everyone see vaccines as all equal? The first ones were developed to deal with major diseases by university profs and such. Now, they are concocted by huge teams directed by profit-hungry, conscienceless corporations. If they can get their mix labelled a vaccine, it is absolute marketing gold, whatever the real numbers say.
09 Feb 2021, 1:43 pm
Jiheisho wrote:
Clueless2017 wrote:
I just wish the scientific community and the public at large had a better understanding of ASD with the aim to improve the quality of life of those affected...
Absolutely. I do not fault the scientific community--it is a really hard problem to solve. The public at large I am a little less generous with--a little compassion and empathy can go a long way (and they were given the gift of empathy, so there is little excuse
)... ... ...
Sad but true...NTs are born with the gifts of empathy and compassion, yet many don't employ these within their own social circles and much less for the wellbeing of often-forgotten segments of the population that are marginalized, like the disabled, including but not limited to those on the spectrum...
I cannot change the world in which we live...I can only change myself, by continuing to cultivate these beautiful qualities that are essential to enjoy healthy interpersonal relationships...In my case, my focus is the wellbeing of my beloved (Aspie) husband
09 Feb 2021, 8:09 pm
10 Feb 2021, 7:12 am
10 Feb 2021, 9:09 am
10 Feb 2021, 2:40 pm
Rexi
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Joined: 3 Sep 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,388
Location: "I know there's nothing we can do. But my heart can't accept it." "If this is real, then I want to change the future."
10 Feb 2021, 2:55 pm
Clueless2017 wrote:
Rexi wrote:
It's also usually what I hear from people in the spectrum what they believe, and my psychologist had stated that unsocializing me and not teaching me to communicate had made me skilless in life. That is due to the parenting.
I am of the opinion that had I been raised healthily I would have much more fitting in skills and less anxiety and social fear. Also what happened in class and the way I was taught to deal with things had set the way for my development and the way I coped with things. Passive.
It definitely didn't make me autistic but it made me worse and lesser fit in. I notice people in better families on the spectrum have less issues with bullying and not fitting in, feeling alone and trust issues towards the world.
It's worth more research like he said.
I laughed at 'pop psychology' because he is a musician.
Fnord has no idea how funny he can be when he's serious. But that can happen with anyone. Then again some spectrum people laugh at funerals.
How can one know if it's intended as sarcasm or a joke, in text? I guess this time it was not. Then his long reply I thought was a joke because it's so long and insistent.
Then again it's sometimes hard for me to tell with autistic people if they're joking or they took offense.
I am of the opinion that had I been raised healthily I would have much more fitting in skills and less anxiety and social fear. Also what happened in class and the way I was taught to deal with things had set the way for my development and the way I coped with things. Passive.
It definitely didn't make me autistic but it made me worse and lesser fit in. I notice people in better families on the spectrum have less issues with bullying and not fitting in, feeling alone and trust issues towards the world.
It's worth more research like he said.
I laughed at 'pop psychology' because he is a musician.
Fnord has no idea how funny he can be when he's serious. But that can happen with anyone. Then again some spectrum people laugh at funerals.
How can one know if it's intended as sarcasm or a joke, in text? I guess this time it was not. Then his long reply I thought was a joke because it's so long and insistent.
Then again it's sometimes hard for me to tell with autistic people if they're joking or they took offense.
... ... ...
Rexi, i have very strong maternal instincts, but no children of my own...I did raised one niece and one nephew as my own for one decade...And to date, they fill my heart with joy...Still, each time i read you, my heart bends towards you as if you came out of my womb...Oh how i wish you were my daughter
...I absolutely love your candor ...Don't ever change ...By the way, my maternal instincts are also triggered by @Joe90 who i also have in a very high esteem for different reasons...Sending you both a prolonged virtual hug that lasts at least 20 seconds for the health of your physical and figurative HEART... Sheesh, right in the feels!
Picking favorites, are we now? [Heck yes, I'm totally lovable!]
The feeling is mutual, have felt protective of you sometimes because we share some things and experiences.
I have quite massive amounts of honesty in rl if you meet me, Im the one at the table that when someone asks mom to get me married I tell them to find me a good woman. I love how silence and horror overtakes their entertained faces. yes... Yes!
Im the one at the table combing my hair and fluffing it up with my fingers. Im the one with the odd posture or a huge dog lay on my lap.
By and way, did you know men secrete the exact hormones mothers do that give them the maternal instincts, except they need longer exposure to their\relative's child to reach the same level, in other words the process is a little slower than for women.
_________________
My Pepe Le Skunk. I have so much faith in our love for one another. Thanks for being an amazing partner.
x Any topic, PM me; mind my profile.
10 Feb 2021, 7:30 pm
Autism isn't just one specific unique thing. The guy is right for parts of us especially with Asperger's but there are people who have genetic reasons too.
_________________
I am as I am.
Life has to be an adventure!Dear_one
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Age: 76
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,721
Location: Where the Great Plains meet the Northern Pines
10 Feb 2021, 7:34 pm
10 Feb 2021, 9:14 pm
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