Men and Masking

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I'm not used to people other than me referring to their feelings as butthurt but I'm pretty used to stepping on toes without realizing it.

For what it's worth, if there's men who present with what's described as female autism, and vice-versa, that probably means any stereotypical gendered differences to brains might not be strongly relevant to if one is prone to masking, suggesting that describing the differences in a gendered way is really inaccurate and not just kinda inaccurate.

Thanks, my love.

Exactly. The vibe I get now is that autism is a spectrum or continuum with all its variations, but it seems like "male" autism is perceived to be on one end, with "female" on the other end. They're described almost like opposites.

By male, I mean: Being identified as a child, having obvious symptoms, meeting the criteria which they always say were designed for little boys.

By female I mean: Generally not being identified, having miraculous masking skills, and being so good at faking it that your own doctors don't believe you.

That's how it seems to me, having read about 30 books by autistic women about their experience being diagnosed (generally as an adult), or their experience self-identifying and not being able to convince their doctors.

I doubt many men have read these women's books, but that's the narrative. My point is that there don't seem to be many books by autistic men sharing their point-of-view, so I've been unable to compare and contrast. The info about autistic men seems to come from NT researchers or scientists, and not the autistic men themselves.

Instead of imagining the continuum with male on one end and female on the other, I'd rather think of "people who can mask" and "people who can't mask", regardless of gender.

I know that masking isn't necessarily good, and it often causes the person more stress than not masking. I'm not minimising the devastating effect of living life as an actor. I'm just trying to figure out if men actually mask at rates equal to women.

just repling as a reminder

interesting thread with cool OP

i hear somebody say. he cant speak right now as hes on shrooms

wtf lol moralizing fornicator, the keyboard is too loud

That seems like a worthwhile question to ask and given how many men are late-diagnosed it should be a question that's able to be investigated, even if being late-diagnosed doesn't inherently mean that you masked (let alone masked well), it does mean you weren't so obvious that someone else identified it (unless one pursued diagnosis on someone else's suggestion).

It would also be nice to try to untangle how much of an impact how kids are socialized has on masking-prone, late-diagnosed folks because I get the feeling that a lot of men who mask well might not wish to even consider that they're abnormal enough for a label instead of just being abnormal.

I think people really don't think about what counts as masking. When I found a list that was used in a research study, I realized I had done lot's of them and even had learned some more on here. Eye contact, for example. I had certainly had tried forced eye contact and avoiding facing the person. On WP, I learned the better technique of near eye contact (looking at near the eyes). The Deep Compensation group are the techniques most are probably not doing. I could imagine women being better at these and I certainly don't remember doing anything like them. I realize some of these are things anyone might do when they want to fit-in with a group. Here is the document with the list of masking techniques: Compensation Checklist

Here's my responses, just for the record.

- Are you diagnosed / self-diagnosed, and at what age?
Diagnosed Level 2, the month before I turned 50.

- Did you have difficulty finding a diagnostician as an adult?
No. It was expensive and I waited a few months, but otherwise it was straight forward.

- Were you taken seriously by your GP, your family and friends, etc?
GP - yes. Family - Haven't told them all (I'm very private). Friends - Most thought I could go to CBT therapy and make it go away. The others just said "Oh, that makes sense".

- If you weren't diagnosed in school, what challenges did you face trying to fit in?
I wasn't diagnosed in school. I was seen as being spaced out, weird, and different, but it was the 1970s and no kids (boys OR girls) were diagnosed with Classic Autism if they didn't have very low IQ or physical disabilities. There wasn't even a special ed program in my school. I only really had friends when I was age 13-14, because I tried to smoke and act cool. Before and after that age I was completely on my own, and I even hid to eat lunch because I had no friends.

- If you were diagnosed in school, or you went to special ed., how did that affect your social confidence?
I wasn't diagnosed but I went to Speech Therapy for mutism and pronunciation, and I was in small group learning in the hallway for some classes because I couldn't focus. I went to guidance counsellors for emotional issues. Teachers were quite concerned about me. One teacher even implemented a daily yoga session for the class and asked me to be the leader, so that I could calm down and get some special attention as a leader. My job was to teach deep breathing in the Lotus position. I never had self-confidence so it's hard to say whether these services helped or hurt.

- How did your autistic traits affect your relationships or your self-concept?
I always felt that I was different. It made me either worship people (wanting to be them), or distance from people (being intimidated). Either way, it ruined my relationships.

- Did you feel pressure to hide your autistic traits? (sensory issues, special interests, etc)?
My mother said that I looked "ret*d" when I stimmed, even though we didn't know the word stimming back then. I tried not to stim but couldn't suppress it. I still feel like I look "ret*d" especially when I'm in her presence. I've never been very vocal with people to talk about my special interests, but everyone knows about them and teases me.

- Did you feel pressure to hide your emotions or fake them?
I don't think I ever enjoyed any social encounter in my life, but I pretended to enjoy people's company. I felt like I had to hide my anxiety in new situations and I thought I did a good job of it, but my brother reports that "Everyone knew you were difficult". I had meltdowns on family trips and embarrassed my family quite a bit without realising it at the time. I couldn't stand the change in my routines.

- Did you play sports or get ridiculed if you didn't play sports? (male stereotyes?)
Female stereotypes: I did get ridiculed by my mother for not being interested in girly things, cooking, cleaning, etc. I did my best to fit in with my girl cousins / aunties / grandmothers, but I just wanted to be alone. I never felt good enough when I was around them.

- Do you feel that society judged / will judge you for not conforming with NT boys / men?
Conforming with NT girls / women: Yes, very much. They judged me as a child, as a teen, and now as an adult because I don't play the "lady" game. Being a quirky and eccentric single mother hasn't been easy. The other mothers conformed to social norms and seemed to remarry as soon as possible after divorce. I still dress like I'm 14 and I listen to loud music. I have a house full of pets and I don't smile or make small talk like most women. I don't even try to fake it. I don't even face people when they talk to me, which makes me seem really weird. Some people assume I'm arrogant or cold, but I'm actually just terrified.

- Do you feel like you wore a "mask" socially, or tried to fake it?
I tried to fit in. I think we all try. But I was never successful. I never fooled anyone, and I certainly didn't feel comfortable. I gave up decades ago.

- How does it feel knowing other autistic men are often branded as serial killers or psychos?
N/A but I feel sick when I hear this. I have many friends who are autistic men. I'd defend them to the ends of the Earth. I think most autistic men are more sane than the autistic women I've met.

- Did you ever feel like you'd be called an INCEL if you wanted to date or have sex?
N/A but again I hate that lonely, autistic men who want sex are often considered INCEL or told not to take red / blue pills.

- Were you ever worried to tell a partner that you were autistic, or thought you were autistic?
I've only had one partner since my diagnosis. I told him on Date #1.

- Do you feel society / women have unfair expectations about your career or your income / skills?
Yes. I think society and women (and men) think that I must be helpless if I'm autistic. They underestimate me and they're surprised that I own my home etc. But then other people overestimate me and think I can do more than I can without support. It's a balancing act. My report says I need significant support and I do - but it comes from therapists rather than family members.

- Is your mental health taken seriously, overall?
Yes but I'm tired of therapy.

- Do you feel like autistic men's voices are heard in the media?
Not really. They're spoken about, but not really spoken TO.

Last edited by IsabellaLinton on 21 Jul 2021, 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I do not know if I am on the spectrum or not but I think I am and I am waiting to be assessed. If I am not on the spectrum then it raises a lot of questions but if I am it hardly raises any! Is this a self diagnosis? I do not know!
At what age did I find out? (Find out I could be on the spectrum?) Uhmmm. It has been a bit of a long story. About my mid 40's due to dating someone on the spectrum (My second proper GF (Proper as in we actually met a few times)), though at the time I did not know what to think as I did not really take it to heart.
I had several different people all tell me or ask me if I was on the spectrum since then. That was about two to three burnouts ago! so maybe my traits were noticeable when before then they were not? Though it all really started about five to six years ago when I was going through a major burnout in work, and I had to quit my job (I made up an excuse because I did not have a clue what was happening to me or how to describe it to anyone so I had no hope of trying to describe it to doctors. "It" turns out to be burnouts which consists of strings of multiple partial and full shutdowns where I am glitching between masking and unmasking, and hardly getting any sleep at night, and in an internal mental mess but outwardly somehow to others I appeared fine? This part REALLY puzzled me! Only very close family knew I was struggling. But in desperation I prayed "Lord, what's happening to me?" It was after this that I had to quit work again, and somehow during the recovery stage I started chatting to a lady who is on the spectrum with her son, and for about two years we were an item together (Mostly online and on the phone though we did meet about five times when she came down for holidays to meet me! It was me puzzling what aspergers was because to me she seemed very much like me. She tried to describe what autism was but nearly everything she said I also experience so I was puzzled. I laughingly said "Am I on the spectrum as well?" She had me sit an online test and it said "See a psyciatrist, a health professional or a doctor" which I thought "Great. See my doctor but tell them what? (I knew nothing about autism so I could not say what the traits were that I had so if a doctor said to me "Why do you think you are on the spectrum?" Apart from the rough online test which just said to see them, I could not tell them. It actually took me two years of trying to mention it before I did. Long story! Kept getting mind blank when I tried to so had to speak about other things! When I did finally ask not long before joining this site, I actually expected a "Yes" or a "No" answer, as I really wanted to know there and then as all my life I had been trying to find out what the shutdowns were so by then I saw some sort of link which spurred me on to actually ask. (I took my Mum in so if I had mindblank she could ask for me and she did have to say one or two things as I did hit mind blank and stopped speaking for a few seconds until my mind freed itself up again).

Did I have difficulty finding someone to assess me? I am on a waiting list. The doctor doubted they would accept me because I could not give any symptoms as I did not know I had autism traits other then faceblindness. (I did not really know what autistic traits were back then other then meltdowns which somehow seemed similar to my shutdown experiences (Triggers) but I did not know how or what the shutdowns were called (Shutdowns have not been confirmed yet but I am 1000% certain that is what they are. They want to assess me to be sure)). Though the doctor doubted I would be accepted to be assessed and told me so, the assessment team were keen to accept me... And once when I was in a right mess just after the last big burnout/breakdown I got myself to their open day, and for the first time in my whole life I found I was speaking to people who understood what I had been going through. It was a massive relief! It felt like a dam of stored up emotions and things had burst... Though not a sudden gush but a flow that became a torrant later if that makes sense? I was unable to show at first. It was overwealming (I know what that word means now! They asked if I feel overwealmed and I dis not know how to answer as I did not know what it meant as it is a word I never used as my vocabluary tends to be limited, especially words for emotions? Not sure... I have discovered since then what anxiety means and I yes... I have that! Haha! I never knew that is what it was called! I know. I am silly somwhow not knowing what feelings are or were called. But I didn't know. I had not make the connection!)
Was I taken seriously by my GP? Yes and no. Was a different doctor who I had not seen before and she has a reputation of being serious and straight to the point with expecting yes or no answers etc. This actually causes me mind blank as I can't answer straight to the point back as that triggers mindblank for me. But I did answer this above where she doubted I would be accepted... But fair play, she did put me forward for the assessment team to decide. If it wasn't for her doing that, I would probably not be here now. I mean... I had reached the moment in my life back then where it was make or break time as I was in a big mess. I probably would not have survived if she had not put me forward and the assessment team would not have accepted me. I should not be admitting this, but it is how I felt and feel as waiting to be assessed gives me hope that the future can be better?

(I have only answered the first three questions! I will answer the rest soon? ).

I feel embarissed. I am writing too much!

Thanks, Carl. I couldn't get the link to open though? It just says "not found".

Is there another way you can share it?

Re eye contact - Nope. I don't even try. I don't feel comfortable looking at their nose or near their eyes, or anything.

In my opinion other forms of masking would include:
Pretending to enjoy social encounters
Smiling or mirroring people's facial expressions
Making small talk
Pushing yourself to avoid shutdowns in public, or at home after social events
Repressing stims and repetitive behaviour
Pretending to show interest in popular culture
Dressing like others or adopting their mannerisms
Hiding meltdowns and sensory overwhelm
Making excuses for avoiding things, instead of telling the truth why you can't
Multitasking when you really can't
Speaking when you don't want to
Being in relationships because it's expected of you, even if the person is abusive

I never really fit into school. My education both in school and especially in collage (More collage then college for me) were for me terrifying experiences and the worst years... Out of school they were my best years. In school they were my worst if that makes sense? It felt like a cross between torture, prison and fear. This is not to say that there were not good kind hearted teachers or pupils. It was just the whole enviroment and the constant minor bullying (And major bullying but that was not constant). What I mean by minor bullying. Being slapped or hit (Not that hard but hard enough) or bumped into etc... Or threatened or called names. (The names part I ignored but it was often). Being excluded was the big one. Example, I could never have co-operation from classmates like if I needed to borrow a book to copy notes. Or if there were text books or hymn books I would be the one who the other kids would not share with if there was one book between two pupils. Things like that. To me that was worse then bullying because bullying was done by one or two pupils. The exclusion was done by the entire class apart from maybe one or two who would do it grudgingly but they did it because they were kind... But would have preferred it to be someone else. This was why I had to develop a secondary masking method for the last few years in school and in collage. The normal masking was to mask traits which I were being told off for by teachers and pupils. The traits made me annoying. To avoid being hit or smacked I had to hide my stimming and traits. Hiding traits meant I became very quiet and timid. I did all I could to avoid drawing attention to myself. Some years I hardly spoke at all. This hid the possibility of some traits being noticed.
The masking of stimming was difficult and took lots of mental effort. I would be threatened by teachers (We had physical punishment in those days) for doing some sort of stim which often took me by surprize as it was automatic and even I did not know I was doing it. I know it sounds daft, but I didn't. So in lessons with certain teachers, I would have to forget learning. Pretend to look like I was paying attention, but all the time I would be monitoring every single movement my body was making so I could stop it. Iwould sit on my hands and hold my feet to the floor to try to ensure I would not stim which drew more unwanted attention...
I actually had a lifelong ambition to prevent myself stimming so I could be seen as "Normal" and when I stopped one form of stimming by sheer mental effort trying to break the habbit and trying to monitor my every move... Only to find another new stim broke out instead! But after years and years of effort, but they time I was in the latter part of my 30's to late 30's I did it. I was free of all stimms! BUT then I hit serious burnouts or breakdowns which I had never had before. I became a mental mess! If only I had known not to stop stimming I would have avoided all this! I have had several. I have lost jobs and lost my house. I would have avoided all that I think?

"Grrr. I am so sad! I "Appeared" to be just quiet and shy. Why did no one know?"

Have to go to sleep now. I am up late as diverting attention from tomorrow. I am sure it will be fine!

As suspected!
Yah, deliciously deep!

Kinda like to explore the frame behind the question, because the impetus gets into interesting stuff. Or a possibility.

Human mind tries to make sense of the world so we split things up, put things into boxes - devise lines of latitude and longitude to navigate - but these don't actually exist on the earth. Since the beginning we have been seeing constellations and finding myths to explain the phenomenon, to make sense of the universe - or attempt to.

But our capacities are limited.
Consider the Garden of Versailles - very kempt, clean, organized, straight geometric lines, regimented plants - all I suspect (subconsciously) to manifest a victory and supremacy over nature, as the wild/indecipherable is unknown and therefore dangerous. The garden is an attempt to find safety in the organized predictable patterned.

Now consider the forest - onslaught of tangled plants of all variety, intertwined, wild, random, no decipherable order.
Here there be Dragons.
Well of course there is order, yet our limited minds cannot grasp it though there be attempts.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07 ... wer/?amp=1

Goes all the way back to the Greeks and before. This struggle.
This struggle to order and thereby make safe the universe.

So it is the same with medical classification - sex, race, age, diagnostic categories, etc. - creating boxes, trying to make sense of the whole. Gallant endeavor, perhaps - but very limited and imprecise.

Freud started out as a neuroscientist. His (now museum) lab is filled with tools of brain dissection and microneuroexamination in an effort to "find the lesion." It is only after these efforts failed that he formulated theories of the unconscious, Id, Ego, Superego -- all an effort to explain (and therefore order, make safe) the observed.
So doctors try make sense of the whole through dissection, for example Kraepelin - but despite our best endeavors it remains imprecise. It is like struggling to know something, but there are available very few pixels to work with
https://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumb ... tings.jpeg

So categorization has it's limits.
This post exposes, explores the edges of those limits.
Walking high mountains where the air is thin.

So a diagnosis gets us "into the ballpark" of understanding but no more.
Beyond this, it really remains an individual attempt to live this life as best we can. Regardless of the cards. Or perhaps because of them.

The questions proposed and thought behind them means OP is right there with the scientists, mathematicians, writers, poets, composers, artists, philosophers - the long line of human history - great minds engaged making sense of the universe.

Fantastic.



edit: topic is vast - don't wish to alter the trajectory of the conversation, rather an exploration.
Spiegel im Spiegel.

Last edited by Harry Haller on 21 Jul 2021, 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

There's my list.

Oh, and I was diagnosed at 29, I think. I'll doublecheck when sober.

In my limited experience (a body of one) I think masking and social pressure for conformity do apply to boys and men. But, my poorly-educated impressions are:
- reportedly, girls and women are, on average, better at masking than boys and men
- so girls and women might be less likely to have their Autism diagnosed
- which would skew the gender statistics for Autism
- which shifted the focus to us guys
- but lately they've "discovered" the Autistic girls and women
- and maybe that makes them suddenly more interesting for those who are looking?

Could it be the other way around? Do girls and women get pressure to conform that is stronger and comes earlier than what boys and men receive? Historically, haven't girls and women been under stronger pressure to "behave" socially and been forced to act properly? Might ever-present social pressure have been de facto behavior therapyprogramming for many girls and women? Forcing them to mask, with lots of negative reinforcement?

And on to the "exam"...

- Men / Trans Men
Cis-male (and old enough to not be used to specifying "cis-").

- Are you diagnosed / self-diagnosed, and at what age?
Formally diagnosed at age 64.

- Did you have difficulty finding a diagnostician as an adult?
Yes...but not for the reason I would've expected. When I decided I wanted an Adult Autism Assessment I contacted my healthcare insurance provider. They were immediately very cooperative but unfamiliar with what was involved. They gave me referrals that did not work, and then they gave me incorrect information about what kind of provider I should try to find. Their confusion added a few months delay to getting an assessment. Once I had correct information it did not take long to find a Psychologist to do the assessment.

- Were you taken seriously by your GP, your family and friends, etc?
{GP, et al.} Even before I was diagnosed I knew I wanted medical providers to give me information and instructions in writing, and to not use medical jargon while talking to me. Some providers cooperated, some did not. Now that I know I am on the Spectrum I mention that, too, hoping it will help get things explained clearly in writing. Still, some providers cooperate, some do not.
{family} My family already thought I was odd, and they know that in a number of ways I've done well for myself, so it didn't make much of a difference to them. My bride has always thought I was odd so it hasn't made much difference there, either...but when she bangs up against something I think is part of my Autism I remind her "I have a doctor's note for that!" (she was tired of hearing that before we left the Psychologist's office).
{friends} Shortly after I was diagnosed I was distracted by a separate medical adventure which concluded shortly after the Pandemic started so I have not had much opportunity to chat with my friends about this (I'd prefer to do it in person--if nothing else I think I'll enjoy seeing the looks on their faces). In any event, they probably already think I'm odd.

- If you weren't diagnosed in school, what challenges did you face trying to fit in?
I didn't fit in. I just tried to get by without too much unhappiness and suffering.
Note: Asperger's was not added to the DSM until 1994--the year I turned 40!

- If you were diagnosed in school, or you went to special ed., how did that affect your social confidence?
N/A
Note: Asperger's was not added to the DSM until 1994--the year I turned 40!

- How did your autistic traits affect your relationships or your self-concept?
{relationships} That's hard to say. I only had a good view of the relationships involving me, and even then the view was only from my end. I'm a little unclear on what kinds of relationships other people really have.
{self-concept} Even in elementary school it was clear I had above-average intelligence (the IQ kind, not the useful-in-real-life kind) so it was easy to partially blame that for my difficulties. To some extent I think both I and my parents attributed my apparent difference from everyone else to an above-average IQ.

- Did you feel pressure to hide your autistic traits? (sensory issues, special interests, etc)?
Hide? No. Cope? Yes!

- Did you feel pressure to hide your emotions or fake them?
Ummm...I guess I sort of thought keeping them to myself was the polite thing to do. I would've been (and still am) unable to fake them.

- Did you play sports or get ridiculed if you didn't play sports? (male stereotyes?)
I was not interested in sports or athletics, not even watching them. I didn't get ridiculed for that (that I know of). PhysEd is obligatory getting through school and I was looked down upon there because I was not good at sports or athletics. Mainly, this just further isolated me from others, and perhaps marked me as an easy victim for harrassment.

- Do you feel that society judged / will judge you for not conforming with NT boys / men?
Everyone already thinks I'm odd. It's just up to me to make "odd" look good (that is, succeed despite it).

- Do you feel like you wore a "mask" socially, or tried to fake it?
Not really. I was always a loner and content to be me. I just wished everyone had been nicer about it.

- How does it feel knowing other autistic men are often branded as serial killers or psychos?
Often? I know sometimes they are. The Autism seems to be mentioned after the crimes. I'm not sure I see that Autism is expected to cause that behavior, but I guess there might be a perception of increased likelihood. A Contributing Factor, perhaps? Though, I could see a real possibility for some slight correlation. Based upon my experience, I'd say life was stressful and less pleasant for an Autistic...years of being picked on by life could warp a person (not the Autism, but the negative experiences it attracts).

- Did you ever feel like you'd be called an INCEL if you wanted to date or have sex?
I'm too old to understand the faddy terms you young folk use these days. I did some dating, though not much--some gals might've considered it polite to give one date but there was almost never any chemistry. And the few times there was chemistry there were other problems. It took me a long time to find my bride. (Sex? I thought gals' pants used to stay on better!)

- Were you ever worried to tell a partner that you were autistic, or thought you were autistic?
I'd been married 19 years before I had even heard of the Autism Spectrum. After a coincidence motivated me to go to the Internet to learn about Autism I quickly saw some similarities with myself. At that point, at my request, my bride also started researching it (she saw I resembled it, too).

- Do you feel society / women have unfair expectations about your career or your income / skills?
Doesn't everyone have unfair career and income expectations for everyone?

- Is your mental health taken seriously, overall?
I don't think it is seen as much of an issue. Not by me and not by others. I did reasonably well those 64 years I didn't know I was on the Autism Spectrum. I would look silly if I now decided to convince people I had a "problem". For me, it is a difference--the technical terms most often used are: odd, quirky, strange, and weird. (But, like I said, my bride is tired of hearing "I have a doctor's note for that!")

- Do you feel like autistic men's voices are heard in the media?
I think we're getting into logically tricky territory here. I probably would only hear the voices that were heard and I'd have never heard the unheard voices. If you mean do I think there are many autistic men's voices in the media then, no, but is that a bad thing? If we stood out that would highlight that we are different.