Is AS un-American?
This is the first I have ever heard of this. Care to even link to a dicy wikipedia article, or hopefully something more believable? It sounds like racial posturing.
My own ancestors fled europe not once but twice. The first time they went east. The colonies they founded there were based on religious faith and were Lutheran and Catholic.
http://www.lhm.org/LID/lidhist.htm
These are not the actions of people that flip flop their faith from Jewish to Christian. In fact, Jews are not known for acceding to the tenants of Christianity. Their immense strength of character and deep ties to their faith withstood the persecution of the death camps. But I admire their style.
If that event couldnt draw them to change their faith, and my ancestors walked across europe TWICE to escape persecution, then my ancestors must not be jewish. That sort of determination and bull headedness does sound like AS, doesnt it? I mean, come on. They simply could have mouthed whatever words NTs use to get people to piss off!
Fact is, AS and linked traits are HUGELY connected to the Volga Germans. I think you will find a large number of Volga Germanic decent here at WP.
Next to they went to Kansas and then to Canada. Kansas was already too full and crowded(there is that love of personal space again!), so they went to the Okanogan region of South West Canada, and later onto the praries.
To put it short: My blue eyed, fair skinned northern germanic ancestry casts asper-ations upon your claims of a jewish origin of AS. My ancestors absolute pig-headedness in the face of hardship, and the great lengths they went to to be left alone says "ttthhbbbpppttt" to your theory sir.
If you persist, I shall rebutt with the case of the people of Finland(mono-speakers with ZERO body language, little interest in eye contact... and NO history of intermarriage with The Jewish faith.
If that doesnt do the trick, I will then put forth the position of the aspie-like people of Japan. Noted for centuries for glorification of the militant loner(Ronin), the hermetic wiseman, and lately, for a subset of national youth that lock themselves in for years at a time. They to have no descenable genetic connection to Jewish blood.
If you continue to persist, I will find an ethnic group from every continent on EARTH that shows that AS/autism shows up everywhere, and that there is not link to mutation heritage from the European Jews.
You haven't been a member on here long enough Fuzzy, but some time ago we had posts at length about how so many people on here are of German (Jewish) descent. In the local AS meeting in my town every single person in the group has German Ashkenazi Jew ancestory. That's the one common denominator with the entire group. Honestly you don't see many full blood Asians or Africans on here do you? Nor any full blood native Americans. It really does point to Volgas and other Jewish Europeans as being the ones that carry the gene.
You are viewing the term Jews as a religious group. This has nothing to do with religion other than very orthodox Jews will usually not marry a non-Jew which really keeps the gene pool isolated. Jews are not just a religious group, they are a ethnic/racial group. What your family currently practices is of no consequence as many Jews became Christians after fleeing the Nazis and arriving in America. Their religious conversion does not erase the DNA they carry.
My greatgreat grandfather was a very famous German Jew who fleed to the US. I have found articles about what he was like and the articles screams of someone with AS. Everything in his life points to AS and my Dad has AS tendencies, so I clearly see how I ended up with AS. The other side of my family is Native American.
I am also suspicious about a little talked about experimental collaboration between the US and Nazis called Operation Paperclip. There was genetic experiments going on as part of this covert operation and I wonder if we aren't the offerspring of some of those that were guinea pigs as they may have been trying to create a super intelligent race of people.
mmaestro
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I'm not sure why anti-semites would want to create super-intelligent Jews, of all things. Isaac Newton? Any Jewish blood in there? I doubt you'd even find any German blood. Or myself, my lineage is purely Scots and Welsh. Is there a stronger genetic component amongst ethnic groups? Possibly, but honestly I doubt that this explains more than a significant minority of cases, certainly the AS population in the UK would have to be entirely separate genetically.
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... but some time ago we had posts at length about how so many people on here are of German (Jewish) descent. In the local AS meeting in my town every single person in the group has German Ashkenazi Jew ancestory. That's the one common denominator with the entire group. ...
Isn't Northern European peoples a common link
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sinsboldly
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Come on now. If you're going to say that you better back it up with an example. America is a BIG place full of lots and lots of people that subscribe to lots and lots of philosophies. But AS is a condition. How can a condition be un-American?
Because it is a weakness, and as you know. . Americans ( well, those that live in the United States of America, that is) are rugged individualists. . .(except for the cubical drones, of course, and then those in management, and then those in upper management, and those on the factory floor, those subsidized farmers and those raising the kids at home, of course)
... but some time ago we had posts at length about how so many people on here are of German (Jewish) descent. In the local AS meeting in my town every single person in the group has German Ashkenazi Jew ancestory. That's the one common denominator with the entire group. ...
Isn't Northern European peoples a common link
There is a common link between Northern European peoples as various tribal groups migrated all over the region, including the Brititsh Isles.
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lol - us too. At least we like the myth of the rugged bronzed Aussie ANZAC
A sergeant of the light horse 1920:
A sergeant of the light horse 2006:
Real australia
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sinsboldly
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lol - us too. At least we like the myth of the rugged bronzed Aussie ANZAC
/2005/05/29/30n_commute_wideweb__430x266.jpg[/img]
So, Bazza "Wilson" McKenzie,
tell me, are there a lot of German Ashkenazi Jews intermarrying there in Australia? Do you see a lot of ancestry in the transported English of German Ashkenazi Jews?
I was wondering if Ticker was on to something in the gene pool of Asperger's Syndrome folks being so prevalent in Australia, and I had no idea how many German Ashkenazi Jewish people there were there.
Merle
tell me, are there a lot of German Ashkenazi Jews intermarrying there in Australia? Do you see a lot of ancestry in the transported English of German Ashkenazi Jews?
All I can say is we don't get any in the golf club - lol
(bad taste joke - sorry)
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I can see where it would be considered "un-american". While they claim they are all about free thinking, etc., it's not true. I've met very few Americans who want to think outside of the box, or question why thing happen the way that they do. People here are prideful and base a lot of things off of rank, sometimes solely relying on how much money one has, etc. I don't see "rank" in people at all. I've told off a few people (mainly Nelly) when they came through the truckstop just as fast as I'd tell off anyone else. People gasped as if it was a sin to tell off a jerk just because he's a celebrity of sorts.
I don't know how it would necessarily be seen as un-American, but judging by what society is built up off of around in this area, what is considered normal, etc., if that is what American is, then I know that I am not it.
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You haven't been a member on here long enough Fuzzy, but some time ago we had posts at length about how so many people on here are of German (Jewish) descent. In the local AS meeting in my town every single person in the group has German Ashkenazi Jew ancestory. That's the one common denominator with the entire group. Honestly you don't see many full blood Asians or Africans on here do you? Nor any full blood native Americans. It really does point to Volgas and other Jewish Europeans as being the ones that carry the gene.
You are viewing the term Jews as a religious group. This has nothing to do with religion other than very orthodox Jews will usually not marry a non-Jew which really keeps the gene pool isolated. Jews are not just a religious group, they are a ethnic/racial group. What your family currently practices is of no consequence as many Jews became Christians after fleeing the Nazis and arriving in America. Their religious conversion does not erase the DNA they carry.
My greatgreat grandfather was a very famous German Jew who fleed to the US. I have found articles about what he was like and the articles screams of someone with AS. Everything in his life points to AS and my Dad has AS tendencies, so I clearly see how I ended up with AS. The other side of my family is Native American.
I am also suspicious about a little talked about experimental collaboration between the US and Nazis called Operation Paperclip. There was genetic experiments going on as part of this covert operation and I wonder if we aren't the offerspring of some of those that were guinea pigs as they may have been trying to create a super intelligent race of people.
Ticker, You massively misread me. More to do with my failings in writing than your own reading.
Quoted from http://www.lhm.org/LID/lidhist.htm
1. The Volga Germans left Central europe long before the time of the nazis(late 1700s).
2. The Volga Germans left the Volga long before the nazis came to power(before 1920s).
3. The Volga Germans were in North America at the time of The second World War.
4. There is no historical evidence of (racial) Jews converting to Christianity AND leaving for Russia. It also makes no sense. See number 5.
5. There are/were Ashkenazi Jews in the area. (Ashkenazi Levite haplogroup R1a1 ). They predate The Volga Germans by hundreds of Years. (8th and 9th century khazars). These Jews left the volga and came to europe, not the other way around.
6. The Volga Germans were given strict guidelines(by Catherine the Great) as to what they could and could not do in their daily lives. This included prohibation from intermarriage with the locals. As well, their own traditions prohibited it, much like the orthodox Jews.
7. The VGs were primarily of two faiths, Protestants of the Lutheran faith, and Catholic. There was only one known village that was not Germanic. I think it was Swedish.
8. People take the easier of two paths. You either change your religious beliefs, or you get the hell out of there. Backs up point number 4.
9. Secularism in genetic Jews is relatively modern, and is only modern democracy that permits that. This backs up point 8.
10. Sadly, the majority of people of the day and age would have been GLAD to see Jews of any stripe leave Germany.
11. The fact that 66% of the VGs were Lutheran(the state religion) shows that whatever the conditions of Germany were like, they were less willing than the Jews to put up with it. If it was so bad, why would any Jew join their ranks IN Germany?
12. nearly 2000 years of persecution couldnt dislodge the Jews from their chosen places in Europe. It took near Genocide. In fact, some are STILL there! These are not the sort of people that adopt a religion willy-nilly and tread off to a windy-arid steppe with hard water.
13. Founder effect - Common ancestry for for ashkenazi Jews is genetically linked to a more privledged class of Jews, probably higher than farmer/peasants, and prbably urbanized, while the VGs were peasant/farmers. http://www.dnadirect.com/patients/resou ... morecommon. To put it more bluntly, the modern Ashkenazi Jews share a common set of ancestors from europe about 500 years ago, and that group was no more than 1000 individuals.
14. The above link shows some diseases that they are suseptable to. Note that it doesnt list alzheimers disease, which is a weaness of the VG, and that the VG are not overly suseptable to the ashkenazi jewish diseases, such as tay-sachs, if it occurs at all outside ashkenazi bloodlines. http://lib.bioinfo.pl/meid:91052
Conclusion/findings
The Ashkenazi and VG did not mix to any appreciable amount, if at all.
The Ashkenazi have a common set of ancestors in europe about 500 years ago. So do the VG.
Both the VG and Ashkenazi have diseases that are common to their blood lines due to small breeding pools, but these do not have a commonality. No relation between the two.
Some of the Ashkenazi diseases like tay-sachs do not occur in non jewish DNA, indicating a lack of intermarriage UNTIL they arrived in North America. No common relation between Ashkenazi Jews and most Europeans.
Autism occurs in both non-Ashkenazi europeans and Ashkenazi Jews, despite a lack of intermarriage. That this is true shows that autism has a common ancestor further back in time than the establishment of the ashkenazi bloodline, which is Khazar in origin. That it is common in Ashkenazi Jews is MOOT. it just means they had a small breeding group.
In fact, if autism came from the Khazars, we would see a higher incidence of it in the indigenous people of the Volga and surrounding regions, such as the tatars and Chuvashes, the Mordovians and possibly the Turks. Not so, from what I can Google. No, Autism is a European thing. The Ashkenazi just focus it.
Well I have thought the Volga's had a major part in this also. ZanneMarie and I have had some intriquing conversations of AS and genetics. Where is she? I haven't seen her on here in ages. Its obvious there is a Aspergers gene in the European bloodlines somewhere. My point is the Ashkenazi have funneled that gene through isolated breeding and through that it made its way to America as a very strong gene that still keeps resurfacing among people of that decent. Oddly enough I see people of this decent seem attracted to one another where they are practicing Jews or not or even know of their Jewish roots.
I still think its darn funny all of the AS group in town has these roots and about half still carry German surnames. Course it kinda helps that female AS don't marry as much and keep their surname like me. I just don't see any African American autistics running around town, sorry but I can tell an autistic when I see one. And I don't see many Scandanavians nor Asians with AS either unless they are half breeds and also have the German blood. And yes I am weird because I point out autistics to myself as I am driving around and see people in parking lots and sidewalks and whenever I'm in stores.
Ticker, I quite agree with you; it circles around Germanic blood. My point was just that it predates and falls outside Jewish German blood. Zannemarie and I had a lengthy discussion on it as well. Both She and I are Volga Germans, and yes, its fairly common in those people, from what I can see. Shes of Lutheran VG descent, and I am from Catholic VG stock.
I hope I didnt come across to harshly. I know I can at times. I meant no offense.
One good way to trace the genetic link among aspies would be to do a mitochondrial DNA test. Such a test shows how far back two people(or more properly, a group) show a common ancestor.
Mitochondrial DNA is passed from the mother to children, with the fathers not being transmited. It is not a combination of both parents genes. Because it shows a small and predictable rate of mutation, a lab can test two strands from two people and count the differences. THis is called a hamming distance, which, simply, is just a count of number of changes. Applied to the expected rate of change, an estimate of how far back the two people are related is gained.
This is exactly how they found that the modern Ashkenazi Jews all have common ancestry from about 500 years ago. Since Tay-sachs is only in that group, then Tay-Sachs
is only 500 years old.
It is known through history and documentation that the Ashkenazi didnt breed outside their ethnic group, and that group contains specific genetic illness like Tay Sachs. I believe that the Ashkenazi also show a lower hamming distance to the khazar people than the rest of europe. Since autism appears in the Ashkenazi, the regular Europeans, and also, presumably, in at least small numbers in the Khazar, then autism must be at least as old as their common ancestor, which I think is 2000 years ago, but certainly far longer than 500 years.
Zanne is doing fine by the way, shes just deep in her writing and will return when she is done, when she chooses. Just typical Aspie perseveration.
sinsboldly
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mmaestro
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He himself already did, on the second page:
Different countries value different skills and traits differently. For example, the UK values pop musicians highly and if many of the British pop musicians were living in say El Salvador or Azerbaijan then they would probably be nonentities. The US was populated by immigrants, many of which were persecuted minorities in their original homelands, and claims to be a nation of tolerance, but has it spawned a culture and unwritten set of rules that it is a country which strongly favours people with neurotypical traits and disfavours people with AS traits? Hence the original question of is AS un-American.
Support and understanding of AS appears to be much lower in the US than in the UK. It is also seen in the US as more as a childhood condition to be cured as opposed to something that affects adults and is incurable.
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