Possible link between herpes virus and Autism?

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A link between herpes virus and autism?
I think so 14%  14%  [ 5 ]
I don't think so 66%  66%  [ 23 ]
I'm up in the air 20%  20%  [ 7 ]
What are canker sores? 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 35

Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 10:53 am

ouinon wrote:
PS: Ozzy; i am english but live in france!
8)


I visited paris once...loved it! Paris is way better than it's relative italy. The people's behavior is hard to understand though. I was particularly discouraged by the "WE DON'T LIKE FOREIGNERS" billboards posted everywhere. :lol:

Keep the debate comin peeps...

-Ozzy



ouinon
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06 Dec 2007, 10:53 am

What i find so tragic is that even IF the Herpes virus, or mercury-filled teeth in mother, or immuno-suppression caused by chemicals in food and water, or hidden thyroid disorder, or vaccine shock, or food-opioids/intolerances , or any number of environmental elements, are only FACTORS in triggering Autistic spectrum disorders, each of them only accounting for a few percent/% of cases/difficulties, they are still environmental, which means that they could be studied and eliminated. And the number and/or gravity of ASDs could be reduced.
I do not believe that having aspergers or autistic minds in the past necessarily always, or even usually meant being disabled. I think it meant being SENSITIVE, fragile, precariously constructed, very finely tuned, and that many of the problems perceived as Autism/ASD/Aspergers NOW are actually the symptoms of our being ILL.
That people on the AS are like the canaries of the human species. We start to flutter and tremble long before everybody else because our systems are so sensitive, it's our greatest strength, and our greatest weakness.
I don't think that identifying the environmental causes of the most disabling sensory , motor and cognitive disturbances of AS would wipe us out; I think it would make many of us well, well aspies !, and significantly help others!! Or at least the next generation.
I realise that am actually trying to forget that my having herpes might have caused PDD in my son. It's too painful, esp to think that if i hadn't waited so long he might not have been affected. I knew i should never have been a mother.
But it was an element i had not even considered, so thank you for drawing the connection, Ozzy.

:( .....



Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 11:09 am

ouinon wrote:
What i find so tragic is that even IF the Herpes virus, or mercury-filled teeth in mother, or immuno-suppression caused by chemicals in food and water, or hidden thyroid disorder, or vaccine shock, or food-opioids/intolerances , or any number of environmental elements, are only FACTORS in triggering Autistic spectrum disorders, each of them only accounting for a few percent/% of cases/difficulties, they are still environmental, which means that they could be studied and eliminated. And the number and/or gravity of ASDs could be reduced.
I do not believe that having aspergers or autistic minds in the past necessarily always, or even usually meant being disabled. I think it meant being SENSITIVE, fragile, precariously constructed, very finely tuned, and that many of the problems seen as Autism and/or aspergers NOW are actually the symptoms of our being ILL.
That people on the AS are like the canaries of the human species. We start to flutter and tremble long before everybody else because our systems were always so sensitive.
I don't think that identifying the environmental causes of the most disabling sensory , motor and cognitive disturbances of AS would wipe us out; I think it would make many of us well, well aspies !, and significantly help others!!
I realise that am actually trying to forget that my having herpes might have caused PDD in my son. It's too painful, esp to think that if i hadn't waited so long he might not have been affected. I knew i should never have been a mother.

8)


Excellent, very wise, I can tell you've got some years under your belt. In a good way :) Don't beat yourself up about it, my mother wasn't ready, a lot of mothers aren't ready these days...and the possibility that you may or may not have passed something on simply...is. It's a virus that travels in the blink of an eye, and it's difficult, very difficult so I've heard, to not pass it on to a partner. Focus on getting your son the help that YOU feel he needs. Bringing up/worrying about the past helps no one close to you, especially not your son.

-Ozzy



Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 11:31 am

Sorry that came out a little harsh, I really don't mean to preach. All of my input I put out as, "Take it if you can use it."

Ouinon, and all others have changed my views on this topic, but don't stop now! More please!! ! :lol:

-Ozzy



2ukenkerl
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06 Dec 2007, 12:29 pm

Ozzy wrote:
2ukenkerl I'm not really understanding what you're so upset about...If I really must get into this argument about cold sores with you then fine. Once again, when I say canker sores...........I mean canker sores. Canker sores is a disease and:

Quote:
Causes:
The exact cause of aphthous ulcers is unknown.


Secondly there is a herpes related FORM of canker sores called herpetiform aphthous ulcerations that IS a form of herpes. THAT BEING SAID, I was not connecting canker sores to herpes, I was making the connection that some people with herpes may experience canker sores. ADDITIONALLY, I DELETED that small sentence about canker sores BECAUSE I DIDNT WANT TO GET OFF TOPIC.

I don't mean to be rude, but the horse was dead along time ago bub, and yet you keep whackin.

If you give me some reasoning as to the improbability of the inherited transmission of the virus, and it's effect on the on infants' physiology then lets talk about that, but please, enough of this cold sore bs.

I look forward to future debate.

-Ozzy


YOU brought up the idea of no symptoms! YOU brought up the idea of canker sores being 100% herpes. I merely stated fact, sorry. As for whacking the horse? Quit bringing him out.(Now THAT image is actually funny! :lol: )

As for my being upset? It looks like I am far more upset than I am. Frankly, I think it is funny that you think autism is spreading exponentially. THAT is a dead horse.

They GREATLY increased the number of people that could be diagnosed. Frankly, I bet that some psychiatrist could legitimately diagnose most of the people I met as autistic. Most males even have an obsessive interest which can be described in one word(SPORTS). Most women have FASHOIN/COSMETICS. Did you know some even QUIT THEIR JOBS because of it? CRAZY! I'm not claiming that I would even dare to claim that they are, but only that the criteria is now so broad.

ALSO, HSV has been around a VERY long time. It actually has euphemisms hidden in at least American english, that have been obscured by time.

I will say one thing though. You are saying that EVERYONE here has HSV or some related ailment. I admitted I had HHV(chicken pox), but a LOT of people have had that. It was the first to have a vaccine. It was also tied to shingles (HZV), and a few other things, but never any mental deficiencies or autism. Outside of that though, no known virus, etc... Autistic families have NORMAL kids too. And normal families have autistic kids. I guess you explain that by non transmission(unlikely), or some resistance, that also seems a bit unlikely.



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06 Dec 2007, 2:03 pm

Interesting... It's probably in conjunction with some other co-morbid, causal-factors too though if anything..



Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 2:03 pm

I merely stated it as a possible link, not necessarily as a "catch-all."

-Ozzy



ooohprettycolors
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06 Dec 2007, 2:12 pm

Ozzy wrote:
ooohprettycolors wrote:
Well i had a cold sore last week, I guess that makes me more autistic than usual.


In the first read of this I detected sarcasm..."more autistic," but I see that you use similar use of the term in other posts. Sarcasm or not sarcasm?

Lookin for fuel here and I will take what I can get, even as unsubstantiated as my argument is.

-Ozzy


Sarcasm. Sorry for the confusion.
I think this theory is bogus. Kind of like the one someone posted awhile back that autistics are descended from Neanderthals.



Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 3:18 pm

ooohprettycolors wrote:
Ozzy wrote:
ooohprettycolors wrote:
Well i had a cold sore last week, I guess that makes me more autistic than usual.


In the first read of this I detected sarcasm..."more autistic," but I see that you use similar use of the term in other posts. Sarcasm or not sarcasm?

Lookin for fuel here and I will take what I can get, even as unsubstantiated as my argument is.

-Ozzy


Sarcasm. Sorry for the confusion.
I think this theory is bogus. Kind of like the one someone posted awhile back that autistics are descended from Neanderthals.


To say that you can't find any truth in this ongoing conversation is illogical.

That said, that thing about the neanderthals is funny, but I think the genes they are thinking of was a dead end...died out tens of thousands of years ago.

-Ozzy



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06 Dec 2007, 5:26 pm

If a virus can alter DNA of exposed gametes/zygotes, then a viral link is not implausible.

The rate of novel (heritable) mutation could easily be limited.

If the conditions under which the virus could effect the DNA of the gamete/zygote to cause a new instance of the heritable mutation, were sufficiently exact, and multi-factorial, new mutations from viral infections would usually be relatively rare and hereditary transmission of the mutation once it has occurred would be the most common means by which the condition were transmitted.

As an example, if the virus only had the potential to cause the mutation where all the following occur

*early gamete exposure to parental virus load

*where the virus is at a particular stage of infection/activity when the gamete is exposed

*and additionally the gamete already carries an otherwise unexpressed Variable Number Tandem Repeat at a particular location on a particular chromosome,

then new instances of the mutation could both be very rare and caused by a common virus. In such a case, hereditary transmission would probably remain the primary cause of the transmission of the condition, with scope for the virus to be a potential factor in fluctuations in the rate of occurrence.

The novel mutations themselves might be variant within a scope (for instance correlated to the length of a pre-disposing VNTR).
Actual expression of the mutation in the phenotype could then be further influenced by for instance the sister chromosome with some 'alleles' being neutral, some facilitating expression, others blocking expression.

I personally know nothing about whether or not the virus posited could cause the effect put forward (mutation of DNA presumably occurring early in development (ie zygote or earlier)).



monty
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06 Dec 2007, 6:16 pm

pandd wrote:
If a virus can alter DNA of exposed gametes/zygotes, then a viral link is not implausible.

...



It doesn't have to be so complicated. If the virus can cause developmental problems, and if resistance to the virus is inherited, then there is a potential mechanism.



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06 Dec 2007, 7:05 pm

monty wrote:
pandd wrote:
If a virus can alter DNA of exposed gametes/zygotes, then a viral link is not implausible.

...



It doesn't have to be so complicated. If the virus can cause developmental problems, and if resistance to the virus is inherited, then there is a potential mechanism.

The explanation is intended to explain heritable transmission independent of infection. I'm not suggesting it has to be so complex, merely explaining how it might be plausible for a virus infection to result in a genetic mutation that can cause the effects in individuals who are not themselves ever infected by the virus.



Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 10:43 pm

pandd wrote:
monty wrote:
pandd wrote:
If a virus can alter DNA of exposed gametes/zygotes, then a viral link is not implausible.

...



It doesn't have to be so complicated. If the virus can cause developmental problems, and if resistance to the virus is inherited, then there is a potential mechanism.

The explanation is intended to explain heritable transmission independent of infection. I'm not suggesting it has to be so complex, merely explaining how it might be plausible for a virus infection to result in a genetic mutation that can cause the effects in individuals who are not themselves ever infected by the virus.


Exactly, this was my point. They don't necessarily have to "have" the virus. Very well stated, ty.

-Ozzy



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28 Dec 2007, 1:23 am

Most people are infected with HSV, the virus that causes cold sores and fever blisters, by the time they reach adulthood (about 85%). So I don't think that causes autism, no.

As for cytomegalovirus, that is a NASTY BEAST, but it has nothing to do with cold sores. It does live with you forever though. I was infected with that as an adult. Most people get it in childhood and have no symptoms or a mild cold. I had a severe infection which produced mono-type symptoms back in 2001, causing my liver and spleen to enlarge for several weeks, and I have never been right since. I have maybe 80% of my former energy levels and I am plagued with joint pain now. Do I think CMV is a possible contributor? Possibly. I can definitely cause some damage, that's for sure.


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zendell
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28 Dec 2007, 1:53 am

One scientific study found that 29% diagnosed with an autistic spectrum disorder tested positive for HHV-6 infection. In another study, HHV-6 was associated with antibodies that attack the brain in autistics. So I think HHV-6 may cause autism.

Quote:
J Neurosci Res. 2007 Apr;85(5):1143-8.
Evidence for Mycoplasma ssp., Chlamydia pneunomiae, and human herpes virus-6 coinfections in the blood of patients with autistic spectrum disorders.
Nicolson GL, Gan R, Nicolson NL, Haier J.

The Institute for Molecular Medicine, Huntington Beach, California 92647, USA. [email protected]

We examined the blood of 48 patients from central and southern California diagnosed with autistic spectrum disorders (ASD) by using forensic polymerase chain reaction and found that a large subset (28/48 or 58.3%) of patients showed evidence of Mycoplasma spp. infections compared with two of 45 (4.7%) age-matched control subjects (odds ratio = 13.8, P < 0.001). Because ASD patients have a high prevalence of one or more Mycoplasma spp. and sometimes show evidence of infections with Chlamydia pneumoniae, we examined ASD patients for other infections. Also, the presence of one or more systemic infections may predispose ASD patients to other infections, so we examined the prevalence of C. pneumoniae (4/48 or 8.3% positive, odds ratio = 5.6, P < 0.01) and human herpes virus-6 (HHV-6, 14/48 or 29.2%, odds ratio = 4.5, P < 0.01) coinfections in ASD patients. We found that Mycoplasma-positive and -negative ASD patients had similar percentages of C. pneumoniae and HHV-6 infections, suggesting that such infections occur independently in ASD patients. Control subjects also had low rates of C. pneumoniae (1/48 or 2.1%) and HHV-6 (4/48 or 8.3%) infections, and there were no coinfections in control subjects. The results indicate that a large subset of ASD patients shows evidence of bacterial and/or viral infections (odds ratio = 16.5, P < 0.001). The significance of these infections in ASD is discussed in terms of appropriate treatment. (c) 2007 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

PMID: 17265454 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Quote:
Clin Immunol Immunopathol. 1998 Oct;89(1):105-8.
Serological association of measles virus and human herpesvirus-6 with brain autoantibodies in autism.
Singh VK, Lin SX, Yang VC.

College of Pharmacy, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, 48109-1065, USA.

Considering an autoimmunity and autism connection, brain autoantibodies to myelin basic protein (anti-MBP) and neuron-axon filament protein (anti-NAFP) have been found in autistic children. In this current study, we examined associations between virus serology and autoantibody by simultaneous analysis of measles virus antibody (measles-IgG), human herpesvirus-6 antibody (HHV-6-IgG), anti-MBP, and anti-NAFP. We found that measles-IgG and HHV-6-IgG titers were moderately higher in autistic children but they did not significantly differ from normal controls. Moreover, we found that a vast majority of virus serology-positive autistic sera was also positive for brain autoantibody: (i) 90% of measles-IgG-positive autistic sera was also positive for anti-MBP; (ii) 73% of measles-IgG-positive autistic sera was also positive for anti-NAFP; (iii) 84% of HHV-6-IgG-positive autistic sera was also positive for anti-MBP; and (iv) 72% of HHV-6-IgG-positive autistic sera was also positive for anti-NAFP. This study is the first to report an association between virus serology and brain autoantibody in autism; it supports the hypothesis that a virus-induced autoimmune response may play a causal role in autism. Copyright 1998 Academic Press.

PMID: 9756729 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Ozzy
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28 Dec 2007, 1:54 am

siuan wrote:
Most people are infected with HSV, the virus that causes cold sores and fever blisters, by the time they reach adulthood (about 85%). So I don't think that causes autism, no.

As for cytomegalovirus, that is a NASTY BEAST, but it has nothing to do with cold sores. It does live with you forever though. I was infected with that as an adult. Most people get it in childhood and have no symptoms or a mild cold. I had a severe infection which produced mono-type symptoms back in 2001, causing my liver and spleen to enlarge for several weeks, and I have never been right since. I have maybe 80% of my former energy levels and I am plagued with joint pain now. Do I think CMV is a possible contributor? Possibly. I can definitely cause some damage, that's for sure.


Wow, didn't expect this thread to pop up again. :) Yeah, CMV is a fascinating virus. It seems to "hide" below the surface, and if those statistics were correct on how many Americans have it (50%+), theres a good chance that millions have it without noticing it. For example, a person who seems to have had a cold or the sniffles for a good part part of their life, or with notable recurrency. Poor energy levels, like you mentioned.

The statistics on how often those characteristics of AS would be carried over to children is about .1% from CMV-infected mothers.

Untested, but interesting.

-Oz