More: No link whatsoever between vaccines and autism

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Sorry, I meant before the initial 'MMR gives you autism!' scare.

My point about Lyme is that it may cause autism. I never said it was proven. People seemed to be offended at the suggestion that a non-genetic cause, especially an infectious cause, may cause them to be autistic.

Regarding Lyme, it was proven over 20 years ago by Lyme expert Dr. Allen Steere that a mother infected with Lyme can pass it to her fetus resulting in a child born with Lyme disease. And Lyme is known to cause neurological symptoms in children. One study found 25% of autistics are positive for Lyme. That's why I said it may cause autism. If rubella can cause autism, then it means it's possible that other infections may cause autism also.

I think you may be right Bert. I know there's plenty of others on this site also. Big Pharma is everywhere. I'm pretty sure autism_diva is another shill working for Big Pharma.

Here's some good quotes Bert to think of if someone ever says you're paranoid:





http://www.whale.to/b/name_calling_q.html

Last edited by zendell on 08 Jan 2008, 11:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

Bert, zendell - we treat you with mockery because you insist on staking out indefensible positions in a discussion, then "refuting" any opposition with either magical thinking (like the discussion we were having on homeopathy, which dead-ended when zendell denied the value of chemistry or modern science), or retreating into shrill cries of "Big Pharma! Big Pharma!" Attempting to actually debate issues with you (and with a few other posters 'round here) has proven fruitless, as you refuse to listen to any evidence contradicting your collections of anecdotes, often related at third hand. Therefore, why should we waste our time and yours posting, yet again, datasets you refused to pay any attention to the last five times?

Another shill working for Big Pharma.

What datasets or evidence have you posted? I'm open-minded. I just don't blindly trust the organizations you work for.

To be serious everyone, I'm not a wild conspiracy theorist although it's fun when people think that and treat me like one so I play along with it. I really don't think Big Pharma sends shills to WP. I think it's funny and I called you and autism_diva a shill because you both asked for it. I called Beau a shill because I thought I'd have fun agreeing with Bert.

I don't see anything wrong with not blindly believing everything I hear. Blindly trusting the government or Pfizer isn't any different than blindly trusting testimonials that are part of advertisements. Whenever there's a conflict of interest, I think it's wise to be skeptical and want independent confirmation.

Regarding homeopathy, I mentioned twice that I never used it. I don't use it because it seems illogical and contradicts science and that's why I don't think it will help me. However, I won't attack people who claim it helps them (and I don't care whether it helped due to magic or a placebo effect - the person improved either way and, if science is right, there can't possibly be any harm since it's diluted so much).

Uh huh.

Indoctrinated much?

I imagine all the the people who believed Autism was caused by vaccines are feeling at least somewhat foolish right about now.

now the head of the website chimes in to say its "foolish". This board is a fallacy, most likely run by big pharm. or the government. Where is the only place that autistics get together and communicate? They need to control and influence the discussion between autistics. This is the only medium! And I'll be told how ridiculous it is for me to suggest it. Or this post will be deleted, refuted. Location: washington dc, man? are you serious? I know its especially difficult for us, but we need to WAKE UP

Nope.

BertBlyleven wrote:

omfg.... SSHHHHHHHHHHHH!! !! ! Do you want the LIZARD MEN to hear you???! !! !???

*bangs his head against the wall several times and goes to post in his blog....*

On a serious note, back to homeopathy, I won't repeat what I've just written on the 'does mercury hold water' thread, but I did go to a homeopath today and she was brilliant. She knows more about me and my medical history, lifestyle, diet, any reactions I've had to anything, allergies, etc etc than any doctor I've been to in the UK, and took time to listen and figure out exactly what was wrong. She then had a read over everything she'd written, looked at what factors could influence what other factors, thought about it, then gave me two particular remedies with specific instructions on how to take them. The first I've had and can feel working already; I won't go into details but let's say there've been definite physical changes for the better that I've been trying to get for the last 3 months.

On the other hand, last I went to the doctor, they told me take an asthma inhaler 6 times a day (I don't actually have asthma), gave me antibiotics for a VIRUS (that I didn't take), didn't so much as look at my throat or listen to my chest, and sent me on my way with barely a glance up from the computer.

I know who'd I'd trust more.

LeKiwi wrote:

etc. etc. etc.

OK. It works for you. Or you feel it does, which is virtually the same thing for most people. I'll be serious, I can do that... occasionally, if I have to... I guess...

I'm and insulin dependent diabetic. What in the world can someone like that do? I have to inject a genetically engineered hormone every day. I can't see me getting that from a homeopath.

once again i think much of this conflict would evaporate if people would specify which disorder/dysfunctioning system/symptom they are referring to.
The grouping together of a mass of sensory, cognitive,motor, and social difficulties/"abnormalities/ differences under the one word "autism" does not help anyone work out what the causes are, whether genetic or environmental.

Last edited by ouinon on 08 Jan 2008, 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

And I don't expect any homeopath would dream of trying to convince you to replace insulin shots with one of their remedies. They don't pretend to have the answer to everything. They might be able to find something that could help alleviate any other symptoms or complications of it, for example improving circulation or something, but it's rarely used as a replacement for something in a serious, chronic condition that requires constant attention like diabetes. They often use it as a complimentary remedy; for example, a lot of cancer patients use it to alleviate the pain and illness of chemotherapy, but it's not there to replace the chemo itself. I guess some might want to use it to stop cancer, but I imagine that would be treated with a lot of caution on the homeopath's part.

They aren't quacks trying to cure absolutely everything with homeopathic remedies. They can certainly cure some things, no doubt, but not all, and if they're any good they'll readily admit that.

You shouldn't blindly accept any source. There is, however, a world of difference between anecdotal evidence of the sort that the anti-vaccination people usually cite and peer-reviewed scientific studies. Most scientists are paid through government grants. The grants are awarded based upon peer review. The reviewers in most cases, have no real financial axes to grind and neither do the researchers themselves. For most biomedical research, there is no financial conflict of interest.

That's not to say that a scientist on a government grant couldn't be biased, of course, but I find it difficult to believe that virtually all scientists doing such research are skewing their data to hide a relationship between vaccines and autism.

The real conflict of interest comes from some of the anti-vaccine people that are hoping to make a lot of money from lawsuits against "Big Pharma".

Surely you agree that there are a lot of crackpots on the internet writing nonsense. Given that, why do you believe the anti-vaccination scare sites and not the peer-reviewed studies?