alex doesn't have Asperger's

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That's interesting and I suspect it's true. I have a question for you. Do you see a value in working at a relationship with a peer? I don't think my son does. I'm trying to explain to him that there is a value in having a relationship with peers. It's work for everyone to make a friend. It's work for me to be friends with someone, but I do it. He doesn't. I don't know if this will change.

Amen. The DSM has been changed many, many times throughout the years as knowledge has changed or even the "culture" within the profession has changed, as studies and research has been updated, etc. The DSM is not the end-all and be-all and was not and is not written by God.

I know more than anything you can learn to reciprocate even as an adult. But the trouble I had with reciprocating was manly not contacting people/keeping in touch, or doing anything to keep the relationship alive, or knowing about the potential relationship in the first place. This is different than being unable to have a two way conversation. I have being doing that since I remember. It is a little bit a work, but not impossible.


Really have you met many in person? I have. We have pretty normal conversation albeit quite in depth i.e. little small talk. But we are able to listen. It is not perfect but it is no way near as bad as you describe.

The way you speak, surely this humour would beyond you. Yet you are listening to them making a fool of themselves...

Many people here are telling you they can have two sided conversations perfectly well, yet you cite these papers, which in fact are merely theories in themselves.

That is nonsense - Aspies just have to teach themselves how to act 'naturally' (by NT standards of what is natural).

Since it does not come naturally, we have to think about every single thing we say (or don't say), and constantly set up little mental triggers to remind ourselves to reciprocate, not talk too much, and all sorts of other stuff, all day long.

Then, if we do it REALLY well (read: Pass for NT), people tell us that we are fake.

It is really exhausting.

Daniel tends to be extremely rigid in his ideas. Not an insult or praise. Just an observation.
One of the fantastic attributes of Asperger's people is our extremely high intelligence. Now, Daniel is correct in saying that with intelligence comes the increased ability to do. Now the question becomes "to do what?"

Logically, when we think about it, we realise that with the increased intelligence also comes the problem of realising that we are not quite right. There is something different. We agonise over it, we wonder why. About then, our intelligence kicks in and says, "why aren't we the same? How do I behave like everyone else?" So then we start observing. Another of our wonderful attributes kicks in...we start cataloging other people's behaviours, we start memorizing them, we start sorting them. Thus we build up a library of actions, interactions, and reactions. The more that we interact with others and the more that we practice these socializations, the more of these little cards we build up in our libraries.

It's possible, as many of us who do lead almost normal lives can attest to, for us to have interactions with others that are quality interactions. Now, the quality of these interactions, is admittedly better depending on a few things. Now, these are society imposed things, but are still the appropriate barometers. Society deems that an interaction has quality if both parties are involved and if both parties take something away from the interaction. Now, what does that mean for us? The interactions have much higher value when we feel totally interested and engaged in the conversation. It's a bonus for us if the other person also seems interested and engaged.

The society imposed scale of quality and value pops in depending on our profession, knowledge, etc. It's one thing to know endless amounts of information about x computer system, but it's something else entirely for that knowledge to be applicable and useful for others as well.

The final note on my soapbox is that the face of Autism Spectrum Disorders is changing. The more people that are diagnosed and the more that the vary in their behaviours and actions, the more the face changes. The more of us that stand up and say this is the face of autism, the more that the face changes.

Is autism really exploding in incidence? No, the face of autism is changing and more people are recognised. It's also important to remember that it's a spectrum because we don't all have the same tics and behaviours. We aren't all going to hit the same diagnostic criteria.

Isn't the DSM in the process of being revised? If so, it will be interesting to see how the diagnostic criteria change for Autistic Spectrum Disorders.

I'm reminded of a quote from David Dinklage who is (was?) the director of Child Psychology at Cambridge Hospital in Massachusetts: “As humans, we naturally want to categorize. [But] the complex relationship between Nonverbal Learning Disabilities and Asperger’s Disorder may be an example of how categorizing too rigidly can confuse, rather than clarify, our thinking.” The same can be said of Asperger's Syndrome and communications. Trying to force rigid categories on what is a fluid spectrum of Autistic influenced (dis)abilities is counterproductive, because we humans are too complex, and our abilities can can change dramatically over our life span. I believe that you can be born with what is now categorized as an Asperger's profile, but through intellect, observation, memory, and hard work, learn to be nearly indistinguishable from an NT when it comes to communication. Because you come to interpersonal communication by way of a different avenue does not make your communication any less valid, and it certainly doesn't exclude you from having Asperger's Syndrome as it is currently defined.

Maybe there is so much discussion over the label of Asperger's Syndrome because other labels aren't satisfactory. "Autistic Spectrum Disorder" is too broad, and "Pervasive Development Disorder - Not Otherwise Specified" is tongue-twisting and indecipherable. WE HUMANS SO WANT LABELS AND TO BELONG TO SOMETHING EXCLUSIVE!

Z

Those with AS will naturally become a "parrot" or "broken record" if you scrutinize their daily conversations with others. At a distance though, these individuals will seem to have a finesse with verbal interaction. It's sort of difficult to conclude that Alex is not an aspie, being that you see him on a video, or read his messages, though you can tell he is verbose, and very brief with responce. I believe Alex is an aspie with adaquate and/or choice support.

having talked with alex myself, i can assure you he can spontaneously exchange in conversation.

i like to think of conversational exchanges in something like the picture of an oscilliscope or sigmoidal wave form... with one person being the top part of the wave and the other being the bottom... with the exchange itself being the slope.

i'd say the picture of the graph looks different when talking with say, alex, versus other people i've talked to... but then i like it better in many ways.

have have a hard time finding when to say the things i want to contribute to conversations... and often times wind up forgetting them before finding an appropriate time or being able to tell when people won't understand them. i often feel like i have way too many personal "inside" jokes... probably why i'm not that funny

and i have definite things i like to talk about and propensities to blip out to lala land in mid conversations that don't peak my interest... but i have learned how to tread conversational waters too and know when it's important to try to do so

Daniel, this is Dr. Temple Grandin.

Says she is diagnosed AS. Sure she is diagnosed autistic disorder. Annoying mistake.

I've lived my life surrounded by NTs (whether I am one myself or not doesn't matter in this context), and the fact is that reciprocating doesn't come naturally to them either. Anyone who has tried to hold a sophisticated conversation with a child will know that they are incapable of the elegant give and take that adults are used to - they will either answer bluntly or get bored with the conversation and walk away. And even many adult conversations consist of everybody voicing their own opinion without actually listening to what anybody else has to say. The accomplished reciprocating inherent in small talk is a learned response with a very small repertoire - I know this from experience, because I've memorized the answers that other people keep using, over and over ("You don't say", "Oh, how awful!", "Yeah, as if", "Way to go, dude!", "Why, what's happened?", "Whatever will they think of next?", "You are so right", "Takes all kinds to make a world", "Better safe than sorry", "Rather you than me", "I couldn't have said it better myself", etc.)

I think you're right, because I remember reading that her speech was delayed. AS = excludes speech delay in the DSM-IV-TR/ICD-10.

If she was diagnosed as an adult... then it's very likely she could have indeed been diagnosed with Asperger's. Being a then hf adult with good speech.

But I'm just guessing. It's been a long time since I read about Temple Grandin. 2 years ago perhaps?

EXACTLY!

EXACTLY!

Daniel has a REAL paradox! He CAN'T say Alex has AS, because that contradicts some things he has said and, AT BEST, makes Alex appear to be a VERY big exception. On the other hand, he HAS to say Alex has AS because he was diagnosed by a psychiatrist.

Frankly, I don't know how much I would appear to be AS to you guys, but you can look at my relationships, my demeanor, etc... and it looks suspiciously AS. YESTERDAY, I had some incidents that showed clearly I had SPD and CAPD. I generally communicate fine and YES, it is a 2 way street. It is simply like we might be speaking a different dialect at times.

Yesterday, for example, a fire alarm went off and I tried to explain how the alarm felt like someone poked kniting needles in my ears. They STILL considered it a "minor inconvenience"! At least most HERE understand what I mean. And HEY, I can understand how they understand me, and what the problem may be.

Frankly, it makes me sick when I see a thread like the one about the "aspie commune" where someone says it will never work because you would NEED NTs to do the work, etc... HECK, if everyone saw things my way(gave me space, had DECENT alarm systems, prepared food with care, didn't crowd, etc...) MY productivity would SKYROCKET! I'm sure that is true of most AS people here, and even many HFA or LFA people.

THEN AGAIN, Aspies are just as bad off as WRENS! Wrens CAN'T build nests(like robins), or attract mates(like robins), etc.... At least WRENS are smat enough to realize they are NOT robins!

Oh no. Alex is a witch. We have only one option. BURN THE WITCH!

He doesn't perfectly fit the humanly designed set of semantics to be classified as a label.

Really? Can you train yourself to turn potato chips into gold if you try hard enough?