The Pro-Cure Thread

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zen_mistress
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18 Dec 2008, 2:04 pm

If given a choice I dont want a cure for AS. But I would dearly love a cure for OCD and anxiety.

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Woodpecker
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18 Dec 2008, 2:29 pm

This thread is getting rather hard to cope with and very complex. I would dearly like to know what a cure is, if I was offered a pill which I could swallow which after a good nights sleep would cure every ill which I have, have no side effects, fix those aspects of AS which I hate becuase they trouble me but leave the good points of AS which I rejoice in alone then I would take it.

But the ugly truth is that the "cure" is unlikely to be so benign. I hold the view that a medical treatment is worthwhile if it improves the total health of the person. As I have quoted them before I will quote the WHO and say that

Health is a state of physical, mental and social wellbeing and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity

Imagine that a pill existed which rubbed out all signs of AS or autism in a person and did nothing else, this nightmare pill is no where near as good as the hypothetical cure which I mentioned in the first paragraph.

I hold the view that an adult with AS or autism will have adapted to their condition to some degree, to suddenly convert them into a NT would be a earth shattering shock to the system which might flip even normally stable people over the edge. I would expect that to suddenly have your point of view and thought processes altered in a dramtic manner would be a very difficult thing to cope with. I might even be like having a serious stroke. I would not wish that on any of the WP residents.

I suspect that I have to learn to live with AS. Until this fall I was in a state of refusing to consider the possibility that I had AS. I was too pig headed to accept the possibility that there was something "wrong" with me, I knew that I was different to other people but I thought that perhapes I could work out how to fit in. Then a few things happened where I fouled up and upset someone close to me, I also felt a sense of horror in what had happened. I then reconsidered the possibility that I had AS with an open mind. Suddenly many things fitted together and I could make sense of who and what I am. I also feel more happy about who and what I am now I have accepted the idea of having AS.

I then understood that I needed some of the positive aspects of AS in order to practise my profession and do other things which are dear to me. If I was to lose the AS I would be likely to lose some key abilities which I have and be a much more unhappy man than the current version of woodpecker. I can not say that having AS is one long joyous experience, but on the other hand it is not the worst thing in the world. Overall I would say it has had a neutral effect on my life.

I do not think that the AS experience would suit all, but many of us have got it and I think that we have a duty to ourselves to make the best of it.

I will have to consider the question of children and the idea of treatment for them.

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Diagnosed under the DSM5 rules with autism spectrum disorder, under DSM4 psychologist said would have been AS (299.80) but I suspect that I am somewhere between 299.80 and 299.00 (Autism) under DSM4.

ephemerella
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18 Dec 2008, 4:14 pm

Stinkypuppy wrote:

ephemerella wrote:

Thank you for your contribution. I started to write about what you are referring to, keeping a foot in both minds. Actually, what you said is true, I am changed by the experience. I'm having difficulty, tho, maintaining a foot in both NT and AS minds because I'm psychologically damaged by trauma in my NT mind. I had trauma with sociopathic academic abusers and so incurred narcissistic injuries and other damage to my "Ego" structures that are central to the functioning of my NT-mind. I am here, in part, trying to understand and fix that damage and remove the sociopathic influence that was impressed in my NT mind. Presumably, if I were less distressed, and had a healthier NT mind, I could do as you did. Perhaps one reason why I didn't like the NT mind is that it was damaged in some ways and has to be fixed, as I am trying to do now.

I like your contribution because it is wise. In particular, there is a sense that I have that we all start out with an NT mind or an AS mind or whatever mind, and then the path toward self-realization involves both. NTs who seek "enlightenment" spend a lot of time doing things to make themselves more like us... meditate, remove themselves from society, stop thinking about Ego and the world of Illusion and focus on an immediate reality, stop lying, and so on. They are starting from one place and trying to develop a fuller mind. I.e. NTs start from NT mind and their enlightened mind grows toward being more AS. I've had the sense, lately, that AS simply start from the other place. Whether I was born NT or AS, if I become fully realized, that fully realized mind would have both NT capacity and AS capacity...

...
I think I've been lucky on my own path to enlightenment because I always had somebody to turn to for help. We Aspies may be loners but for whatever reason we don't like being alone all the time. I have a twin brother with AS also, so there was always somebody there who shared my experiences at home, at school, everywhere. We understood each other completely and, whenever we had meltdowns, we knew they were always transitory. Having that kind of unconditional emotional support helped both of us to continue "fighting the good fight" so to speak, to stay on our paths of understanding. There's still a lot more to learn, after all I'm only 30, and I still have my difficulties but with age hopefully I'll manage them better. And you're absolutely right, this isn't strictly-speaking a "cure", more of an understanding of how people are and how the world is, and an acceptance of what we are born with. We may start off with AS or NT minds, but it doesn't mean that we are slaves to those labels. In the end we are ourselves.

I think that AS do develop NT-function supporting minds over their lives, but slowly perhaps and depending on their level of self-development and exposure to the NT world. Also, like me, people get bullied and harassed and that causes trauma, insecurities and anxiety disorders that make it difficult for the social cognitive system to develop as quickly as perhaps we would like.

But I think that all minds grow into the directions that they need to grow over our lifetimes, if we let them.

It's such a surprise to hear of someone with a twin AS, of course what a wonderful thing to have company in the land of AS uniqueness and unconditional understanding. How wonderful for you (both).

So I suppose it's appropriate to let the pro-cure AS have their say. Last post for me.

mystyc
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18 Dec 2008, 4:16 pm

ephemerella wrote:

Again, it's not the topic of the thread that is offensive, but the demeaning, belittling way AS people are referred to in them.

It is as if the low-self esteem and personal self-hate of the individual who wishes they weren't AS comes out in how the talk about others who don't want a cure, I.e. directing at others the same kind of low language behavior to refer to other AS that they have in their own head's self-talk. You may hate your own AS but don't use the belittling language to project disrespect for others' AS.

Particularly when you don't offer any enlightening information to relieve us of our hateful ignorance.

Hahaha, no. I always talk like this. Check out my other posts.

As for "relieving you of your ignorance" as you call it, I find the general premise flawed. It is like people who are "against global warming". It does not make sense. They don't make sense. I don't wish to be dragged so deeply into nonsense.

DwightF
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18 Dec 2008, 4:34 pm

DeanFoley wrote:

This thred is dedicated to people who do not wish to live with Autism or Asperger Syndrome. It is devoted to choice. If you do not want to be rid of it, that is absolutely fine too. And you are most welcome in this thread if you also respect other people's choices, including the one to have it gone.

I made this thread as a response to the aggressive anti-''cure'' mentality. Please, do understand that I by no means believe everyone who wishes to retain AS or Autism to be like this. Unfortunately, there is a vocal group of people who demonize pro-cure people. I have seen many people act like we are monsters, and many people treat them as the aggressive ones. Ironically I can't find a single case of this.

I do not enjoy Asperger Syndrome. I find it difficult. I do not like the sinking feeling gained with talking to somebody, or the awkward physical movements. I perfectly respect other people who see a bright side to AS, and I am not passing judgement on their choices.

But I do ask that the same people do not judge mine. I support research towards treatment, and the ability to eventually CHOOSE what you want. Again, you may not want it, and you are welcome to that choice as far as I'm concerned.

I ask only that I be welcome to mine.

First things first, make sure you've got the terminology correct. I had a discussion with someone that was "pro-cure" and railed against all things "neurodiversity". Turns out he was just using his own made-up terminology so he, literally, was using a different language to speak and interpret what others were saying. There was a lot of misunderstanding going on. There could be some "hardcore militant" ND AS people that fundementally oppose what you propose, this is the internet and there be crazy people about.

But by-in-large ND are all about self-determination and choice, often even to the point of being all for alleviation from, or compensating for, the negative aspects.

A lot of the opposition you'll run into has to do with:
1) you assuming this isn't part of who you are, for better or worse
2) it being unrealistic that you will remove ALL aspects of the autism, sort of a variation of "yeah, well if wishes were horses beggars would ride"
3) fear of eugenic policies
4) the implications on he general public thinking autism is something you catch or something genetic that's easy to filter out (related to the above)
5) the link between the idea of a "cure" and the anti-vax crowd (these folks are responsible for some nasty stuff that is hurtful towards ASC people in general, plus they are flat out crazy

)

Anyway, good luck on your quest.

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Last edited by DwightF on 18 Dec 2008, 5:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Age1600
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18 Dec 2008, 4:37 pm

what if this world cured every disorder? what do you think this world would be like? is cure what everybody really wants who is pro-cure or is it another form of acceptance? what if there was a way to fix the depression, the anxiety, the ocd, the social awkwardness without completely curing the autism, would the cure be just waste to look into? what if social awkwardness or social misfits were accepted in this world and instead understood, would the "cure" be so valuable?

i just noticed everybody who wants cures, whats to fix their life, and aspergers, pddnos, autism, etc, is whats ruining it? right? sometimes people go beyond everybodys expectations and do amazing things whatever label society puts on them or whatever disability makes them out to be, what if you became that person, would you still want a cure? sometimes people need to find something to cure, because they want that perfection, they want that acceptance others are getting around them, but what if that cure came out, and wiped out every little difference that a lot of people see as a disability or handicapped, what would our world become?

anyways i'm neither anti or pro cure, i decided that people make their own choices, they do what they feel is best, as for me my choice, if the decision came up, it would prob be a long thought, right now if i saw the cure floating around, no, but maybe later on today when im out and i can't communicate and im standing there stampering around in cicrles flapping as everybody stares, maybe yes i would. Overall, a cure is nothing i really look much into or care about, thats just my opinion....

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18 Dec 2008, 4:44 pm

You can only learn from people who aren't like you, who don't believe the same things you do.
Learning and growth is inherently a chaotic process.
If everybody were the same, we would cease to grow or learn or adapt. Would that really be so healthy for any society, let alone an individual person?

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Padium
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18 Dec 2008, 4:48 pm

How many inventions have been made by a team of completely normal people: none to very very very very few.
How many inventions have been made by a team of mostly normal people: More than the above.
How many inventions have been made by a team of mostly "different" people: more than above.
How many inventions have been made by a team or an individual who has some form of mental abnormality for their time: Most of them.

ephemerella
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18 Dec 2008, 5:40 pm

mystyc wrote:

ephemerella wrote:

If you cannot even explain your position, beyond railing at those who you say oppose it, then all you have done is set up a "straw man" argument -- you just declare an issue and then start dumping on those who you claim is on the other side. I.e. stuff like this is just an excuse for AS haters to dump on AS with demeaning language. It's an AS-bashing op.

The people who are "for global warming" at least issued reports. They didn't just claim that there were people who were "against global warming" and then described how ignorant and fearful the opposition were, without explaining anything about the issue (including what global warming is and who is against it).

The only thing you can explain is how ignorant and the alleged "anti-cure" people are:

mystyc wrote:

The anti-cure crowd does not understand what is meant by a "cure". That ignorance is typical of the "fear of the unknown" response commonly found amongst humans; aspies and NT's alike. It is also similar to some NT's I know who are against any psychiatric medication. They are afraid it will change them and like make them vote republican and wear suspenders or something. Irrationality, fear, antagonistic aggression; these are all the markings of a culture built out of exclusion and isolation, rather than one of reaffirming some identity.

You can't explain any part of your post, including what you mean by "what is meant by a "cure". You can't explain why your post is anything but your own self hatred for having AS vented at other AS.

You really think NT is better than AS and that you, for embracing your AS-hatred, are superior to other AS. This is why you unload disrespectful, berating language and then claim you're above having to explain yourself.

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18 Dec 2008, 7:01 pm

Freedom of choice in this regards is BS.

News flash: You can't choose but to stay with AS, there is no cure, and all studies towards a cure are mostly trying to find a way to detect the gene so they could prevent people from being born this way, they can't cure you. Ok... perhaps they could make an Aspergers-less clone of yourself and replace you with that guy.

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18 Dec 2008, 7:07 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

They can genocide you. And if they can pinpoint it before birth, why not promote the genocide... its a disability, most people don't look at it as a race, but as an imperfection. Although, I am as much AS and ADHD as I am white with brown hair, it is just a subdivision of race in my opinion. If AS is an imperfection, so is being born as any of the other races. Being white is just as much of an imperfection as being born under the spectrum.

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18 Dec 2008, 7:10 pm

There are no genes to be detected. This is perhaps the worse scientific sham ever pushed off on humanity with respect to us who have the condition. This is witchcraft at it's best. If the condition were genetic you could trace it back through generations and this cannot be done anywhere anyhow anyway.

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18 Dec 2008, 7:19 pm

garyww wrote:

That's odd, I can actually trace it to my mom, and her mother. My mom refused to accept any diagnosis any doctor gave her for anything of the mental disability nature. My grandmother has relatives that show traits suggesting she had gene and passed it down while still being technically NT. Genetics is a very messy field, you may possess a gene, but it may not be active, and therefore not affect you. An example of this is me and my brother both have DBA, doctors would have never known I had the gene without actually thinking to test me for it. They tested me because I was supposed to be a bone marrow donor for my brother. He produces no red blood cells, but I am perfectly normal, and it is a dominant gene.

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18 Dec 2008, 7:23 pm

Trace what exactly? I seriously doubt that you can make a genetic tie between the various generations. We all pick up characteristics from our ancestors that have nothing to do with our conditions.

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DwightF
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18 Dec 2008, 7:25 pm

garyww wrote:

Not exactly true. There aren't really hard-and-fast genes like colourblindness or Hungtington's or general eye/hair/skin colour. If you've got one (or two) copies of the Huntington's gene, barring accidental death, you will eventually present and it and it will kill you. But even with the hard-and-fast nature of Hungtington's you don't even have to get this from your parents ((EDIT: I should say your parents don't have to have this gene, and have presented Huntington's themselves)), there have been rare documented case(s?) of spontaneous mutation. Hungtington's is caused by excessive repetitions of a sequence in one particular gene, and these repetitions can increase due to a copy error.

But there appear to be some predispositions for ASC. Which is to say a gene, or combination of genes, that say "maybe this will work out this way". Our DNA does not entirely tell our future. Even if you include the RNA, which has been shown to have a lot of influence, it doesn't. It is widely accepted by those in the genetics field that "chance" at particularly chaos laden junctures and also environmental triggers make up part of the decisions that result in what we become. It gets really complicated when there are multiple interacting genes, so even without spontaneous mutations you can have the interaction of a maternal and paternal gene that results in something that doesn't show up in either family history.

Sorry, I should link some study abstracts but I don't have any links handy. Maybe someone else can if they do?

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Last edited by DwightF on 18 Dec 2008, 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Dec 2008, 7:29 pm

Studies have also shown that genes are also like switches, and can be turned on or off. In the case of autism, even if a person had the dominant gene, and it were off during development of the brain, they would become NT, and still be autistic. Even if that gene turned on later in life, because the brain is already developed, that autistic would still be NT.

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