NTs DO THINGS with conversation...

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We can also classify conversing types in just 2 groups: those who speak with their mouths full of food and those who don't.

Speaking of ulterior motives GT, why are you collecting this guys mail, he's had plenty of time to do the change of address stuff.

but on the topic of conversations - yeah it's all a power game, even the seemingly 'harmless' stuff. i just don't wanna play power games all day, every day in every way, it's tedious.

What a facinating exchange, interesting thread.
Although I find the subject important, I can't say I've completely grasped the issue. The closest thing I can relate it to is like when I play a game, the whole point for me is to win. But, everyone else seems to be playing mostly for the enjoyment of being together, with winning being a nice benefit if it happens.

I totally agree with the OP. I had never heard it expressed like that before, but it really does make sense.

I can't stand to talk to my dad because all he does is rant. Why does he think I want to hear his crap about the church, immigrants, the gov't, etc.? I think it is his way of lording it over other people. My mother on the other hand, is passive-aggressive and uses conversation to control people. But, I was oblivious to all that until just recently. (I am 50 years old, and should have figured it out. Duh!)

I work with people every day, but had to learn how to play the conversation game. Until I did, I was forever getting in trouble. I still don't "get" chain of command, even though I understand the heirarchy. If somebody has something to say, why don't they just come out and say it??? If Joe won't listen to me, I will talk to Sam--but then Joe gets mad at me for going over his head. I am like, "Who cares as long as the job gets done???" I also had to learn how to verbally stroke people, get them on my side from the beginning of the conversation, and to remember to ask them about themselves. Talking about themselves is people's favorite topic of conversation.

My coworkers laugh when I tell them I am not a people person because that's all I do all day long is work with people. I am a high school teacher. I will say that speaking to the kids is a lot easier than speaking to my peers or the kids' parents. The kids converse w/out playing politics. They are still young enough to be childlike and open. When we talk about music or movies, they don't want anything from me. The parents ALWAYS want something and adults mostly seem to be trying to hide who they really are.

This is great stuff.

This is much more in keeping with my perspective and what i have learned.
What i do know however, is that my inability to regulate my emotions which is part of my AS presentation - means people can get quite taken aback by how fervent i am in my rant. but for me, that is a separate issue.

I know many people with whom i can debate and exchange information and have a completely opposite view. it doesn't mean i am attacking THEM per se. i am attacking their view or their stance - which is very different from mine. in fact, these are often the people i find most interesting. and they find me interesting too. in fact, if i am going to spend time with people - these are EXACTLY the type of people i waould want to hang out with. lots of ideas, lots of debate, lots of information exchange, lots of views.

my view is that a therapist who makes such sweeping claims is very black and white in his/her thinking.

Last edited by millie on 02 Jan 2009, 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This is a fascinating post! I think I'm finally starting to understand why it is that most NT's conversation seems so pointless, and therefore baffling, to me. I've been trying to understand it in the wrong way - I have been missing something, but not what I've thought I've been missing. I've been trying to understand why it is that such dull, trivial 'information' is so enthralling to NTs, when, in fact, information isn't the purpose of their interaction.

I'm not sure now if I feel better that I haven't really misunderstood what I thought I did, or more worried that I've misunderstood something else even more completely. I could manage to fake interest in certain information to a degree if that was all that was required, but... if the information isn't the point, then I don't know where to begin. I can't see myself ever being able to understand it.

Just because NTs like to do things with their speech doesnt mean I have to. I have learnt some NT language but I dont enjoy using it. I dont feel emotionally present while I am trying to speak like an NT I feel sort of robotic.

I prefer to sort of mix NT skills I have learned with weirdness, wordplay, facts, all sorts of random stuff. That way I dont have to give up my thoughts and feelings for them because I can dilute the NT speak with my own stuff. I have sort of given up on being normal, lol.

Explain this conversational phenomenon to me, it's happening a lot lately.

People pretend they haven't heard what you've said even though you've had to say the same thing to them a number of times. It's usually a matter that they don't want to know about, something you need them to do that they have no intention of doing. Selective deafness, I suppose. Because they refuse to 'hear' you, you are then obliged to repeat youself endlessly. How do you get around that one?

Now, I'm someone kind of in the middle. One of those "Aspie traits and NT traits" people. Mostly reading this board I find stuff I relate to from the aspie perspective, how I'm different and understanding those differences, and finding others have those same differences.

But occasionally something strikes me from the other direction. Understanding what a probably aspie in my life is like and how they are different from me and from what I tend to expect from most people.

So, you share personal information about how you feel about someone, where they stand in your life. And, from my perspective, it's both information sharing and connecting. An intimate act of opening up and connecting (or trying to) with someone else. So, an aspie is going to see it as just information sharing, and respond, if at all, on that level. They may not see that there's also a reaching out to connect. And so they fail to reciprocate the connecting. Does this make sense?

I'm thinking that dynamic explains a lot about the interactions between a certain person in my life who's definitely (in my opinion) on the spectrum (somewhere), even though he can come across as pretty normal and socialable. His lack of recriprocating. Because he sees my sharing as information sharing only.

Oh god, I think it just got more complicated, if that's even possible.

I totally understand. I think I'm a little bit ahead of this stage as I have started figuring out what some of the silences/looks/tones mean, though I only read these if I am actually focused on trying to read them, so mostly I forget. As for myself, I have no idea how to personally express my own heiarchy/stuff through casual conversation instead of actually communicating information.

I guess the best place to start is with a book on body language. That's what got me started this year, I read this whole book on different body language and what each movement meant, and then I started watching for signs of it in people, and sure enough parts of the book started to pop up everywhere! Stuff like people mimicking each others positions to show liking of each other, and people folding their arms and crossing their legs when they feel defensive/insecure. Tone is harder. Somebody seriously needs to write a book on tone.

To zen_mistress: same.

I've always thought the point to conversation was passing on information. If I were to meet up with a person I could go days without speaking them online, for the reason of keeping information from them that I would tell them when I met up with them. I was planning what to say and storing it hopefully in my long term memory. It never worked though when I would meet them I would go blank for a few minutes and that was enough for them to lose interest in me.
Now I know I've got it completely wrong. I just need to continue to talk about the pointless things that they talk about.

On body language: I never read it, either I'm thinking way too fast or I'm trying to come up with things to say, so I don't notice it. When I do sit down and speak to someone I feel it's happening so fast, to fast to stop and notice some non verbal cues.

Green Tea I love your posts. I'm learning so much right now, and I just woke up.

I didn't think it was about anything else. This is what I've always thought.

mistress

The truth is that you cannot be someone or something you're not. I have had to learn that the hard way.

Actually, the so-called "nonverbal language" is very simple, even primitive. It consists of signals such as "I like you", "I dislike you", "I`m sad", "I`m happy", "I`m mad at you" etc.

Uhmmm, no. It means "I like you". As I said, it`s a primitive language.


Not really.