Who has a "Self?"

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zees eez a very very cool tread.....
oblio and others - the particularities you describe are uncannily similar to how i experience who i am and who others are.


Imagination: Now, in some literature i read that autisics have impaired capacity for imagination and then in other reading matter i read differently. i have imagination, as do many autistics or aspergers people who have ended up being writers and artists.

i see incredible imagination at times on WP, so i don't get it.

i am glad some are relating to me in terms of what i am bringing up in this thread.
i am a little startled, as i have tried to instigate discussion of this with people i know who are not ASD of any kind and they cannot comprehend me. they can of course understand contextual adaptations, but that is less extreme than what i am talking about.

Look at some of the avatars people have made themselves as a perfect example. sunshower's are amazing, mine is of my own design, and there are a few others that have done that themselves. Also there are so many auties/aspies who have gone into some form of art, we see it all the time here.

well that is right padium. art is my profession as well as my special interest. if i could not do it i would verily die. it is as important as my coronary health.
i find some of the stuff bandied about, re AS to be crappola - as is said here in australia.


to make a point...i woule say much of the input on this thread is incredibly imaginative.

ok subtopic Imagination
i have tought long and hard about why i did not seem to be able to start writing; i might have come up with all sorts of imaginative things - but nothing ever 'rang true' sufficiently, no resonance from within

there is some poetry from long ago, no possible way to call that stuff un-imaginative; however that was never the point thereof --

i would be very much a writer's not a poet's personality; poets more of the creative artist; writers more the contemplative, analytical, philosophical side of art (and then art by language, which is philospohical by definition)

however, i have found only a little expression in a little poetry; after which (you can actually see it happen in the poetry itself)
"my language fell apart"
there were all sorts of fsctors in consideration; it coud have to do with my joining an english touring hockeyteam, and sort of finding a home for my second nature (i come across as highly british)

the strange thing is, before, i had always only felt at home in english, now, at 26, i had run innto people (on their turf for the first time) where i was totally accepted....
the (middle-class) english harbour a deep acceptance of the 'eccentric'

so, problem 1: this language falling apart, had it to do with this anglicization process i had entered - it was just like becoming me, buti n not my first language

on the other hand: libraries have been filled with mainly poetically phrased complaints (also by prosists) over anything that can be related with not being able to write; poets can get stuck over the difference of meaning of one comma in the right place

without THAT feeling of internal click, resonance, recognition on a non-verbal level &c&c&c (grounding), it would seam that my imagination ran wild or amok on myself, rather than being void

LACK of imagination is not the same as NO imagination
next question: is 'lack' the right word?
well, maybe YES, from the diagnostic and normal NT point of view

and certainly NO, from the autistic point of view: it is irrationnal to dismiss a library imagination such as Temple Grandin's and many of our's as LACKING per se;

There might, i hypothesized long ago, be a problem withh proper creativity - my writing is very 'commenting' whatever, often things of verbal phrazing, rarely true emotional expression - which i believe is the main function, of poetry

OH YES & i certainly felt i came across as passive and silent in male context, i never came up with the ideas to do anything, but i took thhem to their extremes: so, at best: i take something given, and re-create

in writing, the narrator (or whatever instance of the writer) is supposed to be omniscient, but more so, omnipotent

lets just say that sexual ED must be about the only aspect in my life where i do NOT feel impotent and never did,
and yes, in that sense, now i can apply some of that ridiculous Executive Dysfunction (however, those are words not from then)


so there i was: a not even aspiring writer, lost in poetry in a language that had fallen apart (still best word for the feeling) and the appealingly distractive lure of linguistic logic
and always that bewildered WHY is it as if i have NOTHING to say

i can play with rhyme&reason, with calembours in just under ten languages (only dutch&englishly acceptable), i can rearrange and create ambiguity and doubt, and even create by extrapolating and dialectic argument

BUT

I CANNOT primarily pro-ducing CREATE, I cannot pro-create

so yes: i would say there is a problem with my imagination and it robbed me from the only thing my personality and talent were ever suited to become

i lack certain aspects of imagination and talent that show in my style
my autism shows through in every comma i choose to place of leave

i have never been able to find linkage for my linguistic twist and me, or that twist and reality, until autism provided the context in which my words finally made sense
but i still have much rephrasing ahead of me

Am I still making sense????????????????????????

PS:
I LOVE the signatures & avatars and all that: there should be a separate forum for all that to SAVE WPhistory AS/FOR the future;
yes that is very creative indeed, but always comment, and telling something about your position in the world, as you see it

THERE IS A SPECIAL ASPIE CULTURE & HUMOUR

I have seen it: it is what I recognized first time I hit on WP and instantaneously selfidentified & diagnozedived

I did then not care about the posts, i sta for a week staring at avvies & slogans of people JUST LIKE ME - who cared what rubbish they would have to post - they were me, my rubbish.................

My official diagnosis reads as follows:
Axis 1: strong suspicion of Asperger [...] [only because of age 51]
Axis 2: personality disorder NOS, with traits of
- adhd
- narcicism, and
- schizo-typal traits (i may have missed one)

I now KNOW that this personality disorder is in fact nothing but My a-typical presentation of autism : it is all simply that

More so: i believe DISTANCE (unrelatedness, aloneness) so crucial to autism, that i have taken the liberty of becoming upset with the psychiatris, protest, taking literary theory on the structure of irony
and from hence refer to autism (AXIS 1&2) as

(Pervasive) Ironical Personality Syndrome

i simply know many of you will adore this self-mockery: it is part of our unique sense of linguistic humour and awareness;
and there is always that lovely essential doubt as to how serious this suggestion of mine actually may or may not be

I get swamped by other people when I'm around them, but I have a consistent sense of self. Can't remember if I've always had one or if I became aware of one as I developed cognitively. I'm willing to bet the latter, and that there are cognitive developmental stages in the development of an awareness of self. Don't know if anyone's looked at this, though. It would be necessary to follow people through time and do structured interviews to find out, since the older you are, the less your age has to do with which stage you're in. Wonder if I could do this over the internet someday?

Part of what I am, though, is a mirror for other people's energy. I am quite consistent in this, in that I take in other people's energy and reflect it back at them. This can make it very difficult for other people to see me, but it is definitely part of what I am, rather than a lack of self. An actively receptive self. Jungians call this "anima woman", if I remember correctly, and it is associated with the Persephone personality archetype in Jean Shinoda Bolen's Goddesses in Everywoman.

As far as imagination goes, it's not lack of imagination, it's lack of imaginative play (=acting it out), which is another thing entirely.

you are a walking superbrain anemone!
i find your mention of the anima woman - jungian - and this notionof mirroring , very interesting.

Responding to oblio:

I think the problem with the diagnostic triad is that it lists symptoms that are accurate predictors of autism or AS, yet then it goes too far in the language it uses. The terms like “imagination” and “theory of mind” imply an internal logic connecting the symptoms that isn’t really justified IMO. From an inside perspective it’s something way more subtle than what that kind of wording would have people believe.

It isn’t so much lack of imagination as it is a different kind of imagination. My imagination is more about mental imagery - pictures, sounds, feelings, atmospheres, moods, etc. – it’s not always connected to a social narrative. The NT imagination is obsessed with social narratives, stories that involve interactions between people. It’s as if for the NT the whole universe centers around people, everything is about people – seems silly to me as we are but one species on this planet.

On a different note I keep recalling some of the commentary from the philosophy of Wittgenstein. He talks about how language controls the collective thought of society. The way language is used forces people to describe things from specific angle. When it starts getting used too far outside realm of the writers experience it starts forcing an inaccurate perception, it starts losing its footing. I somehow feel like this idea is related to the whole problem of describing what autism/AS is from the research perspective. The words all seem to give the wrong impression of what it’s really like from our perspective. They force some kind of framework assumptions on the diagnostic label even if that wasn’t the original intent. It’s the way they choose to phrase things.

[quote]


very interesting. yes, wittgensteins' idea here makse sense. gott read more of him again. and i thnk youare right about imagination and social narrative. the way i imagine seems much more alive and extreme than the way others do. even in my profession as a painter there is a distinciton between how i imagine and how other artists do. occasionally i meet other artists who are similar and they usually have agreat many autisic traits - whilst not necessarily being on the spectrum. i can indeed imagine social narrative - but it is done in a way that most regular people cannot contend with.

bummer i have to go now. i like all thes ideas. the secondary material world calls....

I've been told that I have incredible self-awareness.

I've taken online tests for multiple intellengences online for fun and found that I have a perfect maximum "intrapersonal intelligence" score. I certainly know what my internal strengths and weaknesses are.

However, my "interpersonal (social/emotional) intelligence" is somewhat lacking. My score seems to be barely above zero.

I wonder if there is a trade-off between so-called intrapersonal vs interpersonal intelligences?

Could people with high very "interpersonal intelligence" and good social skills have less self awareness/ability for deep introspection?

Do highly social people actually experience a diminished sense of self or "intrapersonal intelligence"?

Or do highly social people "pay" for their adeptness by having a deficit in another intelligence area?


My other "intelligences" such as verbal, musical, mathematical, visual and so on seem to be quite high and above average.

Could it be that I'm in effect "paying" for all these extra abilities by having a low "interpersonal intelligence" and being "inward looking" socially?

Interesting. I think I’m the same way. I notice that those “emotional intelligence” questionnaires sometimes lump the questions regarding these two aspects together. I get an average score because my low score on the interpersonal questions cancels my high score on the intrapersonal questions.

It's been my obsession for a while now. I suppose I have one self that is the AS, and am developing another self that is the socializing. Harnessing the animus, as one may put it, because my socializing-self acts a good deal like a non-girl (I hesitate to say "guy") - assertive, loud, and a show-off.

This is going in the right direction.

We must self define, because outside observers have a different point of view, use of language, and intent.

I am, but made of many things, which sometimes join on a project, at an obsession level.

A group of tasks can be quickly ordered and finished by others, but without considering the content.

I do many things, one at a time, learn the parts, and when I do put them together they work and keep working.

The outside world cannot see the purpose, for I am searching for the purpose of things, they call me names, steal, consider that I can do nothing about them, then wonder why I shut them out. Later in an impartial review, the Patent Office declares that my thought is new, potentially useful, and grants rights to it.

It is still outside of the ordinary world, for the use of an idea does not exist to them, till after it is used.

I blow thought bubbles, most pop. Looking at the limiting factors I make better bubbles. Some become solid.

The process is slow, takes knowledge of the unknowable, avoiding those who not only think in other ways, but will insist that I do too.

My way is different but productive. I see most of the world as emotional, and kind of creepy, reaching out to feel the emotions of others, and feed. I am logical, or dead to them, and not finding food they reject me.

I think it is this personality, the ones that see all others as their rightful food, somewhat Wraith-like, that studies the Psychology of food.

Autism means, I cannot feed here. We lack the Imagination to feed them, and the ToM to think we should feed them.

Their description of us, points out what is lacking, all the ways they cannot feed, control, manipulate, which is emotional and self centered.

It is not what we are, but what they find lacking, to fill their needs.

There are two sides to every story, and while they define a useless rock they cannot suck blood from, we further confound them in Art, Writing, Invention, Technology, Music, all things that take bringing many parts together into a whole bubble.

While they know they are vastly superior, they cannot do these things.

Have you ever noticed what bad writing makes up the DSM?

I was horrified the first time I read it considering it was supposed to come from the best minds of the times.

YES! Oh thankyou, thankyou, thankyou for posting this thread. This whole fragmentation and not having a "self" has been bothering me more and more this year, and I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me, and everyone else seemed to either say; you know who you are, or you'll figure it out, and yet I never seem to get closer to figuring it out.

It's very unsettling, anxiety causing, and a constant source of stress to me (again lately), but I feel worlds better knowing it might just be an autism thing.

your new avatar photo is great sunshower. a cracker.
you know i am 46 - i am permanently fragmented and only now realising this is IT - this is me. there is no self in the traditional sense.......the fragmentation is the constant state of affairs for me. it is a blast. but hard too and lonely - hence alien syndrome. it is the great paradox.

run with it girl, and have a great life.

i say that to you, because you seem really cool - a young artist with AS like i was. there was no-one to say what i just said to you , when i was your age. just run with who you are and don't listen to those who don;t understand how it is for you.

That's how it is with me.