NTs' logic - YES, there is such a thing

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I'm just going to state what I was saying in my head waiting for the screen to switch after I clicked quote...

"Yeah, I thought it was kinda depressing too. Not the person I would want to....Oh my God, you are in Germany, would you please drink a Bittberger for me?"

What is a bittberger???

Bitburger ist ein Brauerei.

"1817 errichtet Johann Peter Wallenborn in Bitburg eine Brauerei für obergäriges Bier. Schon früh sorgt die junge Brauerei mit einer eigenen Mälzerei für optimale Produktionsbedingungen. Nach dem Tod von Johann Peter Wallenborn 1839 übernimmt seine Witwe Anna Katharina die Leitung. Ihre Tochter Elisabeth heiratet 1842 Ludwig Bertrand Simon, der den Betrieb weiter führt. Seit dieser Zeit steht der Familienname Simon für die Bitburger Brauerei."



People here don't believe me when I tell them what NTs are really like under their nice-social-skills surfaces and how they really operate. They think I'm negative, or making up anti-NT hate speech. But there is a whole unwritten rules side to NT world.

It's not that people don't believe it. It's just that:

1) for NTs it's mostly intuitive, so they deny it because they honestly don't consciously know it's going on.
2) if they are aware, they wouldn't be caught dead admitting this is what society is about.
3) most Aspies find it too depressing and too much hard work to learn about and take into consideration ulterior motives.
4) in all the help people want to give Aspies, teaching them about ulterior motives is never included. I've yet to see a therapist or book that goes beyond the body language and social skills crap into the realm of intentional nonverbal messages, ulterior motives and hidden agendas. The reason for this is in points 1 to 3.

They do believe you, it's just that you're the messenger with the bad news so you're hanged. For different reasons, but both NTs and Aspies prefer to turn a blind eye to the existence of ulterior motives.

So Aspies prefer to continue believing that social skills and body language reading are the thing. But in reality, if you're the one above the other in the social hierarchy, you can get away with whatever you want, including having no social skills and not reading body language. And if you're below the person in question, then no amount of social skills and body reading will do, because you have to learn to manipulate to get your needs met from a person above.

Yeah, I thought bittberger was probably a beer. I don´t drink beer because I´m a celiac, and beer has gluten...(so people may wonder why I ended up in Germany...here I am, and I can´t drink beer OR eat bratwurst!) I like wine a lot, especially red wine; I should move to France, lol...

You are absolutely right here! I do believe it; in fact, when I read that link, I recognized things that have happened to me before in my life, when I´ve been on the receiving end. I still think it´s depressing though.

And as I´ve been undiagnosed all my life, I never had an idea before that this was what was really going on with people. I saw only the superficial aspects of things. I had to experience these social difficulties many times before I learned that more people are actually like this than I ever realized. Learning and reading about AS, as well as being on WP has helped me a lot in gaining a different perspective. I used to assume that people were more like me, that was my only basis for understanding. Now that I understand that they are not, it´s helped me change my perspective a bit.

You´re right greentea, that nobody teaches these main points. I would like to know more about them.

I think you're right. You are right on.

These things that I think of as "unwritten rules" and that you call "ulterior motives", these are all things that people feel uncomfortable talking about. But they are the reality in which social behavior takes place. Like the laws of physics, they are principles that affect how things happen, what set points and boundaries become relevant, and what direction social events can roll in. It is uncomfortable to talk about because it is about power and influence, and power and influence can be scary or unpleasant, not the nice, affirming and constructive sensations we are supposed to open ourselves up to when we socialize.

Studying and understanding these rules of power and influence, and how socialization occurs in reality (and not in our idealistic world view), is like studying the dangerous physics of a waterfall instead of playing in the waterfall. It makes NTs uncomfortable and they wonder why you are fixated on that unpleasant aspect, since it comes naturally to most of them.

Like AS, it's neither good or bad, evil or virtuous. These are just the way things work in society.

It would be a lot easier for people who are "mind blind" to learn social skills if it weren't so hard for NTs to talk openly about these "unwritten rules" or "ulterior motives".

Well crap, then don't have one for me. Make someone else have one instead. Oh shame to go on without bratwurst. You know i have an awesome recipe from a cookbook (I think better homes maybe) that's so old, it was my grandma's. It's all German recipes. I'll post it here when I get a chance, but it's one of the most favorite dishes in this house that I make.

Robert Green's "48 Laws of Power" is an actual book, what was at that link was just a list of them.

He also has another book called "The Art of Seduction" that is also an audiobook. I have the audiobook on CD AND the book. The "Art of Seduction" seems like it's about sex. But it's really about how to connect with someone else, how to gain their trust and charm or interest, and how to manipulate their sense of enjoyment of your company.

I've picked up a few tips on how to connect with people from that book, but I can't do much with it because it requires sophisticated, real time mind sight to do most empathetic relationship-building. But it is a very good roadmap to emotional connection between people and how people learn to manipulate it. I just looked, and there is no outline online. But there is a message board for the Art of Seduction book.

ephemerella: do you have any books to recommend on the subject? I am interested in what makes people "tick".

Tantybi: thanks, yeah, I´m always looking for recipes.

What I find cruellest of all is that even mothers won't teach their Aspie children the common hidden ulterior motives of people. They prefer to raise a social idiot who'll end up in an institution rather than admit outloud what filth society is. I once met a mother online who said her child's doctor had told her to teach the child, that it was the best thing she could do to help her Aspie child survive in this world, and still she refused to do it because it felt unpleasant to her.

There's no use buying and reading all the existent books for Aspies if they won't mention the pink flying pig in the living-room. Waste of money and time.

Wow, ephemerella, you must be psychic, as I didn´t have time to post yet, and you replied to my question before...someday you´ll have to tell me how to do that too...

I don't speak German to know all you said, but anyway, I dated a guy once named Trutz. Let's just say our relationship wasn't that long, but he sure made up for it in other ways to be memorable (so the pun was intended...hah). I know, TMI. Anyway, this whole story is weird, I should tell it all.

So I'm sitting on the beach of Siesta Key in Sarasota Florida. White sand. Clear Water. Sun is setting. I am with my friend Diane who is sitting in a beach chair while I'm on a blanket. I look over and see for the first time on this beach, two good looking men. So I do an actual cat walk, on all fours, with the butt in the air type thing pretending to look for a magazine, as they walked by. And, they of course stopped and introduced themselves. Then I played uninterested as Diane starts talking to them. Before I know it, I'm getting a back rub from both guys at the same time. Awesome having four hands on your back at once, and I just recently discovered some massage therapists offer that as a service. Anyway, what was funnier, one guy was from Germany, and the other was from Israel. They are both asking me out, and I come to figure out the one from Israel was married, and he ended up leaving to watch his soaps on satellite from back home (since it would be day time there when night time in FL I guess). The German hung around. Eventually, as it was getting dark, I start talking about how I always wanted to swim in the ocean at night but was always too scared to. So he dragged me, literally, into the ocean, and we hung out there for a couple hours. It was so surreal. It was just complete darkness and warm water. A lot like what I imagine death to be like, as well as birth. It was one of the most awesome experiences of my life. So of course I dated him.

He happened to be from the area the Bittberger is brewed, so it was one of his favorite beers for that reason. I hate light beer. Refuse to drink it, unless I'm already drunk off something good like whiskey. Anyway, he made me try it, and it reminded me for whatever reason of this scotch ale I once had at a small brewery in Ohio. Now it's my favorite light beer. I found it in FLorida, and I found it in the middle of no where at a German Restaurant in Missouri, but no where since then. Shame too because it would knock budweiser into bankruptcy if people only knew. That and Medalla (that one is in Puerto Rico, except that it tastes like a bud light but better and much cheaper).

Last edited by Tantybi on 15 Mar 2009, 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not sure if there's always an ulterior motive anyway. If someone always has an ulterior motive, it says more about the nature of their character than it does about their neurology.

LOL I thought it was a website glitch that caused ephemerella's answer to appear before Morgana's question!

You really just stuck me into epiphany mode. I think that it's not just NT's who have an issue with discussing it, but many Aspies have an issue with trying to learn it. That's why you get a lot of NT haters is either they don't understand it at all, or they do kinda understand it, and because they think it's wrong, they don't like it at all.