Cure NTs

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I don't know about the depression, it is possible according to some accounts I hear from others. But yes, a certain amount of anxiety, and some phobias, and maybe even the occassional panic attack ...

I can envision the first time an Aspie takes a typical neurotype confabulatory story at literal face value, renders a logical decision thereon, and then neurotypical panic attacks set in: "How could that have happened to me ? What did I say the otehr persons didn't understand ?" It will be time to call in Oliver Sacks.

apologies for my letters. I know how to spell perfectly; I just can't always see the details of letter symbols in the print though I can see all the details in pictures. I don't know why this is. I am sure, however, it will be annoying to Zoonic. The gestures and eye gaze are lacking in the letters, though not in the pictures. It is such a conundrum. We live in such a paradoxical world, at times far too Kantian for some tastes.

Alphabetania, your submission has not gone unnoticed, nor unaddressed. It has been distributed for response, which will be provided.

Forgive me if I am obtuse in asking this, but I am new to Asperger politics. I recently attended a social club for Aspies for the first time in my life. I felt relaxed because I reckoned I would not be expected to maintain all the same rules as I keep amongst neurotypicals. Given that, I was slightly taken aback at Zoonic's comment on my initial post in this thread, but once it was explained, it seemed valid to me. Zoonic has issues. So do most of us, I imagine. Why do I get the feeling everyone is trying to get Zoonic to conform? I don't find the comments troll-like. They are personal expressions of personal feelings, that's all. And they are not devoid of all sense. Or am I missing something here?

You also very likely navigate the world in ships without compasses and travel about the roadways without maps, too. Kind of a rudderless, directionless type.

I don't see anything inherently *wrong* in psychiatric diagnoses, except insofar as with some conditions, such as autism, they fail to address some of the other systemic problems affecting the rest of the person's body -- the ramifications of gluten intolerance, for one, comes to mind. I do find the arbitrary divisions created btw the DSM and other physical guidelines to be very unhelpful, and do think these spheres need to be reunited in the literature more in line with our advancing understand of the human body, but I have no vote among those who make such decisions. However, that said, a psychiatric or neurological diagnosis is like a map, it can tell you where you have been, where you are going, what are the landmarks, and what is the lay of the land -- or sea. It is ordinarily informational in nature, and can be very helpful in that respect, not to mention can help you steer yourself out of the way of gounding your vessel on the shoals.

But you really whine and complain quite alot more directly about people who misuse the psychiatric diagnosis map once they get their hands on it. And that is an entirely different issue than merely whether a psychiatric diagnosis in inherently *wrong* or somehow *bad.* It is so much more contructive to address the right issue. You tend to get lost and drift about the issues. Maybe that is what you meant on the earlier thread when you indictated you get confused. I can't help you there, other than try to clarify something you don't understand that I have said.

I also find your rather superficial grasp on the differential diagnosis methodology typically used with the DSM-IV a bit wanting, and this, in my opinion, is a credibility reflection on the possibility you are a troll telling a tall tale about spending time in institutions, since your failure to distinguish btw Axis I developmental conditions and lesser heirarchical personality disorders is indicative of one who (1.) doesn't know what the heck he/she is talking about, and/or (2.) is deliberately obsfuscating the discussion. But, what do I know -- I am somewhat impaired in ToM, and do not elect to speculate about your intentions rather than the initial evidence.

I also think it is seeing your own reflection in the mirror that "sickens" yourself. Unlike your view that it is a strength to exhibit your rather predictable pattern of tearing down others as means to build up yourself, I regard your efforts in this respect as exceedingly weak -- and a lame and unattractive excuse. How convenient it is to spin autism or Asperger's and the people are and iew themselves who have these spectrum conditions as inaccurately as you have. But that appears to go along with your green waxy eyes depictions more suggestive that you watch waaayy too many sci-fi movies than are saying anything of value about autism or Asperger's, other than to function as some type of forum provocateur.

I don't think its fair to say I accredit my "entire personality" to my savant autism, even though the TLE syndromes may be relevant in assessing my personality, or maybe not. I think that would be for my neurologist to determine. Not some gossipy Aspie denialist who can't come to terms with his/her own condition on some forum somewhere, or worse might simply be a troll who wandered out from under a bridge.

Unlike some other types of conditions, I do think savant syndrome, autism, and/or Asperger's do explain who a person is, but more specifically I would say the particular brain wiring and functional configurations on various scans such as a PET explain who a person is, along with the clinical of what the person can/cannot do, and I say that because the different neurological type of thinking style is inherently part of who that person is. You may not like that idea or viewpoint, but that is mine, and you are free to disagree -- especially in the free and open marketplace of ideas that is a freedom we protect in this Country under the First Amendment. If you don't like my viewpoint that my savant autism explains who I am, that is your problem, and I might try to convince you to see it from my different perspective, but I can neither guarantee nor conclude I will succeed.

I certainly don't regard my viewpoint that my savant autism explains who I am as suggesting in any way that I have "a weak self" or 'ToM.' I am pretty strongly and well-grounded in my "self," with no apologies to anyone for that. I have lived enough years on this Earth to know who and what I am. I do try not to be overly autie ego-centric, however, but I am not always very good at monitoring my tendency in that respect. The important thing is, I try, and I am always willing to try more, if being ego-centric is irritating some other(s). The ToM is a little more complex. I am sure my ToM is impaired, but I am also always pushing the social-emotional cognition areas of my brain because I find it both interesting and challenging -- and all anyone ever has to do to get me to do something is tell I cannot do it. I might well be more capable in the ToM area than some others on the spectrum, but I don't claim to have attention-seeking motives or bragging rights about it, as you do. I just try to do my best. I do what I can, and always try to improve my abilities -- and you may not want to hear it, but that is the essential nature of a savant which is what I am.

I should also observe that given your previous admission (Hitler thread) of your propensity to predicate your ToM arguments on a subject area you don't know much about, together with your getting it quite wrong about about what I am thinking and my intentions, I would have to competely disregard and reject your ridiculous conclusory nonsensical drivel that auties and Aspies are "empty shells with 0 personality;" the only thing your absurd statement proves is, once again, you tried to look inside the mind of an autie and came up woefully short because you can't see in.

I'd teach them that you should do things with your hair or clothes because you want to, not because everyone in your pack-social group will reject you if you don't.

I'd teach them to say what you mean, straight out, and not expect people to read your mind.

I'd teach them to focus on one thing at once, like proper Aspies.

I'd teach them to go into extreme focus for hours at a time, like proper Aspies

I'd teach them to develop very strong and exclusive interests...this is only healthy:D:D:D

I would teach them to behave honestly in social situations and not say things for ritualistic reasons. Excerpt from my diagnostic manual:

Normal reaction to the question 'How are you?'

I'm happy/angry/bored/hyperactive/etc.

Neurotypical reaction:

I'm fine (when subject is in fact sick, tired, or angry)

I'm sorry MKDP, but I don't understand anything of what you say. You're like a bad auto-translating program trying to translate an academical report from chinese into english. I have to look at what you write and try to guess what you're trying to say.

And yes, you're right I don't understand autistic s**t brains. I can understand how NT's reason, not autists. I can't understand how a severe autist view himself. Autistic minds are garbage if you ask me.

Last edited by Zoonic on 21 May 2009, 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MKDP, your treatise directed at Zoonic is brilliant and erudite, but I don't think your argument is very helpful. You also made it seem as if Zoonic said that all Aspies have zero personality and that is not what was said.

When I am in a bad mood -- and definitely in a meltdown -- I direct angry, emotional things at my best friend, and what would help the most would be if he would not argue back, but to try to isolate and understand the feelings underlying my outburst without too much interrogative probing. In fact, I lost my cool with an NT at Twitter the other day and she had the sense not to reply to me at all, so that my emotions were eventually diffused.

I am new to all this, but it would seem from what I have read that this strategy of not responding angrily to someone else's anger is considered a useful approach with Asperger's rage in general. I am not saying Zoonic is having a meltdown, but I am reading a mood in there to which I can relate under certain conditions, even if I don't agree with everything which is being said, or with the tone.

I do not think it is useful for you to write long passages that are logical and full of brilliance and then to throw in caustic personal remarks in between. It does not achieve anything which is helpful to anyone.

Right. Now if the two of you would like to keep fighting, I would suggest that you create a separate thread for that (recommended subject heading: Sparring ring) and allow the messages in this thread to develop along the lines of the original question.

I have never attended an all autie or Aspie "social club." But I am an avid horse show and other party goer. I have always been overly mainstreamed, which I regard both a curse and a blessing.

I don't really have a problem with Zoonic's issues or mannerisms, or even communication style. It doesn't really bother me if Zoonic wants to waive arms around, flap hands, have vanity looks, or don one of those sci-fi green waxy eyes masks, that is Zoonic's deal. And I am certainly not one to ask or pressure Zoonic to conform; in fact, I like differences, they can be very refreshing.

But, I also don't have to be a doormat when Zoonic endeavors to cross the savant autism social boundaries I find acceptable, such as insulting me as a person with autism that I am an "empty shell with 0 personality," or making potentially harmful and damaging accusations my communication style "annoys," or falsely implying I personally use my autism diagnosis in an opportunistic manner when the true fact is my diagnosis just lets me be who and what I am, rather than have to constantly masquerade and be forced to conform to what I am not, which is a great relief to me. It is no different than finding one's biological birth mother or father.

As for the comments being "troll-like," I have much experience on the internet, forums, blogs, and just about every aspect of my communication with anyone, since I can't effectively communication thru print paper or telephones very well, and it is my opinion based on my experience and exposure to Zoonic, that Zoonic may be trolling. It may not be your opinion, and your different opinion may or may not be based on my same experience. But, I am always willing to give a person the benefit of the doubt and err on the side in favor of that person. So if Zoonic is not a troll, Zoonic always has the opportunity to convince me.

Your last statement, insofar as you stated earlier you are a neurotypical (am I right ?), brings up one of the basic problems btw how the different neurological brian wiring/functions make an autie or Aspie and a neurotypical interpret the world, and with the caveat that I am only speaking for myself as a person with savant autism, I will give a very simple example you can extrapolate to far more complex language processing areas:

The Event: Baseball comes flying directly out of the ball field at Savant A, while Neurotypical B is standing closeby. Savant A must duck to avoid being struck by the ball. Savant A excitedly utters, while ducking: "It almost hit me !"

Savant A's interpretation is: Savant A sees and ascertains the speed, spin, and trajectory of the incoming ball, and objects (including people in this instance viewed as an object) that are in the path of the incoming trajectory -- all raw data Savant A intakes thru the savant autistic senses. Savant A takes an automatic reactive evasive manuever and ducks to avoid bring struck by the ball, while uttering basically a somewhat involuntary automatic reactive expletive: It almost hit me !"

The only verbal words/language used to communicate are the statement: "It almost hit me !" Savant A's interpretation is one of describing the objective raw data events documenting the speed, spin, and trajectory of the incoming ball and where it almost landed." Savant A does not encode any emotion to the statement or event, since (and this is true of me) Savant A has very little ability to feel the emotion of fear. Because Savant A does not encode any emotion and not one of fear, Savant A does not in the present or will not in the future interpret the verbal statement: "It almost hit me !" in the context of an emotion such as fear or any other. This likely occurs due to the particular impairments of the social cognition thru the cortico-limbic circuitry, again causing a neorological language difference of both encoding and interpretation. It is what it is.

Neurotypical B, on the other hand, hears Savant A's statement: "It almost hit me !," and full unimpaired ranges of emotional feelings flood Neurotypical B's limbic arousal system and the mirror neurons kick in for Neurotypical B, and Neurotypical B imagines the ToM Neurotypical B assumes Savant A should have based on how Neurotypical B's brain works would predict Savant A should be feeling fear emotions and encoding them to the verbal statement"
It almost hit me !"

Therein, of course, with the faulty ToM [/i]assumptions about Savant A's thinking made by Neurotypical B, lies the neurological brain wiring/functional difference that causes the mismatch in encoding and interpretational meaning of the effective communication (being on the same wavelength on the same page of the playbook) to breakdown. Savant A's and Neurotypical B's perception, understanding, and interpretation of both the event and the verbal statement "It almost hit me !" made by Savant A are different, and like they are two ships passing int he night speaking completely different languages.

Whose fault is it ? You can't really say it is Neurotypical B because Neurotypical B made some dumb, reckless assumptions about Savant A's ToM -- after all Neurotypical B has a different brain wiring/functions than Savant A. And we don't punish people for statuses and conditions. You also cannot really say fault lies with Savant A, either because Savant A does not think exactly like Neurotypical B due to Savant A's brain wiring/functions being different than Neurotypical B's.

If a third person asked Neurotypical B, "What happened, I didn't see it ?" Neurotypical B would convey the requested information by responding, "Savant A said she was afraid she almost got hit by the ball." To Neurotypical B, consistent with Neurotypical B's cognitive brain wiring/functional type of encoding and interpretation of both the event and perceived meaning of Savant A's statement: "It almost hit me !," Neurotypical B would -- inaccurately and wrongly -- imply a fear emotion into how Savant A interpreted both the event and Savant A's interpretation of and feelings about the event, when Savant A had no such emotions or feelings and therefore did not interpret either the event or the verbal statement: "It almost hit me !" that way.

Now, a potential harmful and/or damaging translation by Neurotypical B has occurred to or might adversely affect Savant A. Neurotypical B did not intend to do anything adverse or harmful to Savant A, and does not even comprehend that Neurotypical B may have done so. Yet, such harm can spread through further mis-interpretationa/mis-translations through additional Neurotypicals conveying the information amongst and btw each other about Savant A.

Might Savant A get ticked off ? You bet, and from Savant A's perspective, rightfully so. Savant A regards Neurotypical B to be a nincompoop for making such reckless assumptions about Savant A's thinking, perception, interpretation, actual literal statement, and Savant A's intended meaning.

Now Savant A and Neurotypical B are ready to declare war on each other, or Neurotypical B, somewhat bewildered and confused says:

Alphabetania wrote:

I don't find the comments troll-like. They are personal expressions of personal feelings, that's all. And they are not devoid of all sense. Or am I missing something here?

Or, another possibility, Savant A says:

"What was there I clearly said that Neurotypical B did not understand ?"

Neither Savant A nor Neurotypical B are at fault. Neither disliked each other. Both set out wanting and desiring to have a two-way mutually understandable conversation btw themselves. Neither are *bad.* Neither are flawed -- only ... they have different brain wiring/functionality, a status or condition. And, believe it or not, both[i] Savant A and Neurotypical B want and desire to have a deep emotional connection with each other and share their feelings !

It is the ultimate conundrum. And thank you for inquiring, Alphabetania. I really have no good answers, but only the following observations:

1.) People with Asperger's and autism (especially) need to stop being blamed for their seeming inability to effectively communicate -- it really does nothing constructive to achieve improvements to the conundrum, and the communication breakdown is not attributable solely to the auties/Aspies -- the neurotypicals share in the cause, although it just so happens the neurotypicals are the ones in power and call the shots;

2.) Researchers need to extensively and exhaustively research this conundrum -- as well as what enviromental and/or machine (e.g. Internet computer) adaptions might solve the conundrum by leveling the linguistic playing field and bridging the different neurological language gap to both the Savant As and Neurotypical Bs on the same wavelength on the same page of the playbook -- e.g., 14 yr old autie Carly who wants to be on Larry King Live with her computer exemplifies the approach;

[3.) either that, or neurologists and psychiatrist better start zapping masses of neurotypicals with rTSM and/or ramping masses of polyglot savant auties up to stretch their higher-level limbic social cognition circuitry -- because SOMEHOW someone needs to start producing fluent language interpreters and translators ! !];

4. Savant A and Neurotypical B need to work together to solve the conundrum since they both really just want to get along and they actually do like each other deep down inside, it is just their differences are total sources of frustration to each other. Savant A and Neurotypical B can't solve this conundrum by themselves, they need to enlist the help of the doctors who are experts in their different brain wiring/functioning and neurological language types. (And to simply my point, I left off the added functions often impacted for the autie or Aspie: hearing, reading, speaking, and writing centers affected by the differently wired autie/Aspie brain).

In sum, Alphabetania, yes, you were missing something. I apologize, although I don't think either one of us were at fault. But we both need to be part of the solution.

Now, I am off to ride my horse. My neurologist has pointed out to me that I have a horse obsession, and I have to admit he is right.

Please defer to my most recent post. Your misinterpretations are part of your problem, as they are mine, but I don't blame you, and I also don't blame myself. But you, just like me, are necessarily part of the solution -- if there is ever to be any solution. And, again, why do you make so many assumptions I can *read* Zoonic's mind ? I stated I try my best and do think I am not as impaired as many in the ToM, but I am still ToM impaired ! Here is a little lesson about savant autistics and the paradox of savantism: don't under- or over-estimate either the prodigious abilities or the severely disabling impairments. Otherwise, no one will ever get anywhere.

You need to recognize that I don't see the world as you describe it for you: " direct angry, emotional things at my best friend, and what would help the most would be if he would not argue back, but to try to isolate and understand the feelings underlying my outburst without too much interrogative probing" -- that entire fuzzy woo-woo statement of social-emotional cognition is waaayy over my head. It is not even comprehensible to me as stated. I can only relate to such events as if I were dealing with training a horse, and what I would do if a horse got emotional and reactive. This is not to insult you; it is telling you how it is for me. With a horse, eventually, Zoonic would cool his/her jets, and we could reinitiate (hopefully) a more constructive conversation. You really diss-off (and that part is insulting), the fact that I do try to understand what for me is so difficult. At least you have the motivation there and the willingness. But all your punitive response accomplishes is to shut that down in a savant autie. And again, I apologize, but that is the way I am and most auties are. But, perpahs you can enlighten me how your fueling the kindling is constructively helping anything ?

Of course, like Zoonic, you can just say screw it all and all the auties and Aspies and cause a revolt and rebellion of a massive portion of the U.S. population (the autie/Aspie part) by declaring you are going to gas and commit a genocide on them to eradicate the problem. But of course, it is at the risk of eliminating all the savant geniuses that are the one most likely to save humans from the species extinction certain to come from dooming ourselves with abrupt climate change.

Metaphors do have an insidious way of reflecting reality: i.e., You can always elect to sink the entire ship of humanity to get rid a a few auties and Aspies. Now there's en Einstein moment.

But, what has your intelligent approach gained ?

Again, I defer you to my two most recent posts. And I am not going anywhere. You can try to get along or not. I can't control your behavior nor do I wish to have the audacity to assume I should impose myself on you that way -- I do have respect for you. But I can control my own behavior and my response. And I am here. I am sorry you don't like it. It is very sad and quite an unfortunate loss.

But that is not within my control -- it takes two to dance.

I am sorry you feel that way. I already told you I was sorry for your plight. I will say it again. If you can't understand that, I am sorry for this, too.

MKDP, don't take it personal. Zoonic's issues are obviously so bad, he's almost insane.

And, before anyone gets offended, apologies for the italix closer not kicking in properly on my post #73, sometimes it takes me a couple tries to figure out all the techno stuff on new forums.

Insults aside, this post actually made me stop and think. I don't think anyone on here is an "empty shell" but I think Zoonic makes a point in that people can get too preoccupied with their AS (because of our tendency to obsess), to the point at which it defines their entire personality. We would do well to remind ourselves that we are first and foremost individuals, and AS is only part - not all - of who we are.