It's confirmed: I must get undiagnosed: how?

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Hey Marshall,--my thing is to strengthen each other on the internet and encourage each other to learn and grow through inquiry. Sometimes negative feelings can come up and a person just has to feel it. When someone tries to protect another person from experiencing a moment of possible discomfort,then that can take away an opportunity to grow. It is kind of like calling a women a lady and so putting her up on a pedestal. Sounds really nice on the surface, but is is actually diminishing, as it implies certain behavior that limits the possibility of freedom. Let's see---cannot say the F word or even the Sh word, always have to act very nice and never be rude, always wear a skirt, ha ha, do not act like men....same with the client therapy situation,,,,who knows where a person needs to say what and how he needs to speak his truth and to whom???...the experience will always be in some way radical....nothing will fit the way one would think...the new way is always extraordinary...that is what.I have been writing about the whole time...it has nothing to do with being in therapy or not being in therapy....

re your contribution, I have appreciated it....you have some good perspective and insight it seems to me, and I surely would appreciate further input....one problem for me is that I do not know if you even understand the points I was making....maybe the acknowledgement is implied by not responding, but there is no way to really know that.....maybe you think I am wrong....(and edited this post to add--maybe I am wrong).....I know sometimes it requires an extra effort to participate on a thread such as this....and I hate it when people tell other people to stop talking about something....who is anyone to know exactly what someone should or should not be talking about, as long as it is kind of on topic....Just because it doesn't feel so good for a moment or so doesn't necessarily mean it's bad...it might be beneficial...

I saw this woman on t.v. yesterday whose child was kidnapped and found alive after so many years, I think nine, and she was thanking all the people who believed her child was alive,as she did, and those who encouraged her to believe it all that time, and then at the end she especially thanked the people who believed her child was no longer alive, as, she said, they inspired her to believe her child was alive even more..This made a profound impression upon me, as she understands how to approach life from both ends of the stick....

A person who as a child did not get this kind of exchange where he learned to approach from both ends with his mother cannot go back to that time, as the developmental stage was time appropriate...I do not know if you have ever read Alice Miller's "The Drama Of The Gifted Child," but that is a hard book to read as it forces the person who understands it to realize they have to confront the process of mourning.as they can not get what they did not get then in that the time is no longer appropriate because it was a particular developmental stage. The only solution is approaching from both ends of the stick in terms of present human relationship. In terms of processing and moving beyond traumatic repetition this approach is very relevant.

littlebee...

Maybe you're right. I think my problem is I have too much useless empathy from a detached position. I'm bothered too much by interpersonal conflict and I pick it up from a mile away. I try too hard to protect people and rescue people. I sometimes find myself getting annoyed and being a dick to stereotypical "blunt" people which means I don't get along with some people on this forum. I also try too hard to please people at first, then get exhausted and turn 180. I don't know what personality disorder that would diagnose me as.

I agree with most of the things you have said that I have understood, but I can't always think of something to add. I really have no knowledge of textbook psychology but I like to armchair theorize about anything and everything.

Just human;-)

Thanks for communicating, Marshall. It means a lot to me....

I think in such a case as yours, you're better off focusing on the therapist themselves rather than a particular form of therapy, or where it's coming from because in your case it's not straightforward like usual. There are therapists out there who are naturally extremely empathic and compassionate, (Attwood once labelled them "super NTs", even though he is one himself ) who will actually be able to adjust to the ASC, BPD and PTSD. It's basically their natural talent, they'll be able to help you and work with you instinctively rather than by just going through steps in their training, which will be much better for you, as they will be able to respond to your feelings and state of mind much better - certainly better than any regular therapist will.

That makes sense. It takes an incredibly empathetic person not to irritate me because I am very easy to misread me as simply smart but super laid back and lacking energy, behavior that some people would not consider disordered. So it's easy to just look at the surface stuff and think that the work to be done is merely cosmetic. But then I throw it all away by behaving like a crazy person at times.

As for the lack of energy projection, this is due to some serious sensory (especially visual) integration issues that I have tried to address through occupational/vision therapy through a vocational rehabilitation program in my state. It helped with the technical stuff (like depth perception, which is now quite good) but then ran up against a wall when it came to the processing stuff -- actual performance.

I sent you a message about some other aspect of my sensory integration issues. But in general, do you think these should be addressed separately or as part of C-PTSD? I have noticed that my visual-spatial issues partly go away when I am emotionally stimulated, and I interact with people better when my visual-spatial system is stimulated. I, therefore, think they are related somehow.

I have weird perceptions where stuff basically swims through space like it's made of smoke or oil, which gets worse when I get anxious. I have read some articles which say this is classic C-PTSD, so I am beginning to wonder if my Nonverbal Learning Disorder is a function of this as well--something that also enjoys support in some of the literature on C-PTSD.

I agree with this advice. It feels very right, but the problem is, it seems to me, you way over simplify and even idealize the possibility of finding such a therapist. The thing about BPD (and not saying it is your particular problem, Tyrion, but just speaking in general) is that anyone who is going to actually touch on solving that personality disorder is going to irritate the client. Try to stop and think about this. Also, whatever BPD is, and I question if most people including therapists, even really know, it is going to be mixed in with all other kinds of disorders---that is just natural--and DBT, from what I have read about it, is at least focused on dealing with situation that are irritating to oneself, and not focusing outward and blaming it on the other person. However, there is really not that much evidence that DBT is as effective as some people make it out to be. I will write more about this later.

I know my messages can sometimes be difficult to read as I am not always painting everything rosy, rosy, but life is not always rosy, rosy, and it is necessary to find a way to adjust to that.

To Tyrion, and to anyone who is ever irritated, and this very much includes myself, at some point it is necessary to begin to deal with such feelings of irritation, to own them and experience the sensation without reacting or bolting. This does not mean that one needs to put oneself in a situation that is irritating beyond ones tolerance level, but that it is necessary to be on the edge at times and to experience that in order to develop..I find many people irritating, and in the past have gotten into all kinds of trouble, and I do mean trouble, because of this, but no more. Presently, aside from living with a person with a serious mental disorder who is extremely irritating and even sometimes quite scary to me, I ride a public bus, often packed, to and from work, and all kinds of stuff goes on there which I can barely tolerate such as perfume smells, loud noise and (some) rude and irrational pushy people but as my heart has begun to open up, even to myself, my ability to tolerate the displeasing manifestations of others had broadened, to the benefit of everyone.

Tyrion

This might be my last post here because I seem too urged to go off on tangents and talk about myself too much and I got off on the wrong foot the way I responded badly to littlebee. I think I agree with her though. What I really meant to say a while back was that you really will have to tell a therapist everything, in person, even the things you say are impossible to talk about in person. To be able to tell someone directly in person and learn techniques on how to cope with the terrifying feelings it brings on is I think the only way to truly heal from the trauma. It will probably make you want to quit at times or be upset for days at a time so I'd just say be prepared. Despite what statistical studies say I really think the odds are pretty good for you. I think the fact that you have an ASD and an analytical/intellectual style of thought gives you more self-distance than a lot of NTs with BPD/C-PTSD have. Self-distance can make things seem even more terrifying because it makes your psychological self-defenses less effective, but it also means you're ahead of the game because dysfunctional self-defense mechanisms will have to be torn down anyways. I'm thinking what leads to a lot of the bad outcome statistics are codependent situations where the person isn't even approaching the therapy in good faith. A lot of the time it's family members or spouses forcing the person into therapy and that simply does not work if the person does not actually want to heal. If therapy is a means to an end of pleasing someone else that will never work. You're not in that kind of situation at all. You are pursuing this because you want to heal so I'm optimistic.

Anyways, I wish you the best.

Hope you don't leave, Marshall. I thought you made a good contribution, and even from the drama there was learning---maybe I should take some responsibility, as I said something that kind of pushed the river....

I do see in some of your recent messages a tendency to guilt trip. I used to do that with people.....

In any case I feel you have a lot of insight and something genuine to contribute.....and also, I can feel you....can feel your empathy.....littlebee

That's a good point about being able to have more distance. I was thinking, in a DBT group, it might be easier to share things or get in the habit of doing so just because other people are doing it. It's less pressure when others are sharing stuff too (if DBT even includes that -- not sure) than it is 1-1. I am sure there are other types of support groups for BPD also. Anyway, getting in the habit of sharing with a group of other BPD'ers might make it easier to share it with a therapist. Just a thought.

I have appreciated your contributions also. So thank you.

Interesting point on C-PTSD and sensory integration issues, as chronic severe stress is associated with negative impact to the stress response and stress related adrenaline neuro-hormones potentially negatively impacting sensory integration issues. That was the reference I provided in the Autism, mind and body balance link.

I suspect that C-PTSD is related to mid-life Autistic Burnout as well as burnout in younger years.

The impact can be felt in the area of emotional and sensory integration.

I can remember when a bird chirping was like being assaulted by the sound of a Jet Engine, the lights coming from the living room, and "Dancing with the Stars" as virtual fireworks. up close, and the emotional energy of others as "grating".

After years of recovery from stress I can once again enjoy the sound of a bird chirping, the after noon sunshine, but the negative emotions of others are still difficult to deal with. My spouse can be emotionally explosive. I was resilient to that before the chronic stress, but am no longer resilient to it. I can also relate to that in the area of energy projection as a protective mechanism that is not nearly as powerful as it was before my period of chronic severe stress.

In my own personal experience of dealing with chronic severe stress over several years, and partial recovery and gaining some connection back to emotional and sensory processing regulation, I personally agree with KJA's point on the empathic and compassionate therapist as an answer.

Anxiety medication only numbed my emotions and I went through several "cold" licensed psychologist therapists, but could not find a break through until I found someone who was a licensed clinical social worker recommended by my sister as the one she thought could help me, that helped her.

I had given up that anyone could help me connect back to emotions, but I was wrong, as I found the right therapist to help.

It took me close to two years, but I finally laughed from my belly for the first time in over five years a couple of weeks ago, as the natural response I enjoyed before the period of chronic severe stress.

After reading this blog I had questioned whether or not my spouse might have BPD tendencies and asked my therapist about it today when I saw her. She explained to me that there was no way that my spouse could have BPD, because my spouse has never been observed as manipulating others for intentional deceitful and selfish purpose. I have never witnessed that in my spouse in 23 years of marriage, not even once.

Manipulation without conscious deceitful intent does not meet that definition, according to my therapist.

My therapist also stated that BPD is not a personality disorder that comes and goes. The example that she used was a young girl observed as smiling and joking with everyone in the receptionist area and turning on a dime in providing what was an obvious "deceitful" change in emotional behavior to garner sympathy and attention. My therapist did not provide any name or time associated with this event.

I have seen adults do this on TV and have seen people oversensitive to the intentions of others who are extremely emotionally reactive like my spouse, but rarely have I come across adults setting up intentional emotional deceitful drama to garner sympathy and attention from others.

I have seen it though, both online and in real life, and it does not seem like a subtle characteristic. It appears it is what makes a personality disorder of deceitful manipulation what it is and why there is such a stigma attached with BPD, according to my therapist.

You mentioned earlier that someone brought it to your attention that you were being manipulative and you didn't realize it. That doesn't seem to fall under the category of deceitful manipulation.

If you can provide examples where you intentionally deceitfully manipulated others that would fit that part of the criteria. If you have to this point, I haven't noticed it. You seem to have a strong personal moral code from what I can see, additionally fully describing an experience of regret and guilt.

If you are still listening Marshall, I have always valued the respect and compassion you have shown people on this site, as well as your passion in what you believe is social justice in life. There is nothing wrong I can see with your approach to life; it is refreshing to me as you seem very honest in your opinions.

There is such a stigma associated with BPD, there is a push to change the name to Complex Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, because it leaves the "manipulation"/deceit part out of the equation.

And I suppose there are cases where unintentional "manipulation" is incorrectly observed as deceitful manipulation, which provides a good reason to remove that potential stigma out of the diagnosis.

I did ask my therapist about any therapy limitations based on disorder, and she said that should be no problem. She is very knowledgeable about Autism, BPD, and other personality disorders, and participates in Autism Conferences with people like Temple Grandin. She is more along the lines of a Tony Atwood in empathy and compassion for people on the spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

There can happen terrible things because the therapist/psychiatrist thinks he/she is getting manipulated.

It happened to me.

The psychiatrists didn't let me out of the locked ward, because the thought I'm lying to them, but in reality they traumatized me because I was experiencing sever claustrophobia and anxiety and afterwards I really freaked.
Then in january 2nd this year I called there late at night because I had a friend over who was in need and I didn't know how to handle the situation, but the psychiatrist on the phone looked in my documents and thought I just wanted attention and to manipulate her. She didn't sent me an ambulance or any other help, later that evening he was dead, he drove of with his car and officially he had a car accident.
This can happen, when psychiatrists are convinced with their version.
Afterwards they were really friendly, of course there were. There couldn't have been a greater proof that I was right, than the dead of my friend and that they had made a big big mistake. But I'm not there anymore.

Marsha Linehan thinks that people with BPD very often don't maniupulate but instead have severe emotional distress and just can solve it when the things go their way. I heard her talking about it in a video about BPD. She also made a good point that when people with BPD would be really that good in manipulating others, why would they show up all the time in psychiatric clinics? I think she has a deep inside into this disorder, especially because she came out telling a fiew years ago that she had BPD herself as a teenager.

That's interesting; however, I feel bad that you had to experience that.

I questioned my therapist if she was sure it was intentional manipulation, and I do think that an experienced clinician who can read people well, can make a judgement on it that is not 100% accurate, but accurate based on their clinical experience.

I can vouch for the fact that there are people in the profession of psychology and psychiatry that are extreme systemizers, and do not have a good empathic feel for other people and can actually say harmful things to them without intentionally doing it.

An example is when I first saw my psychiatrist and an intern was in the office with him, and in talking with me for about an hour when he came to the determination that I had Alexithymia he turned to the intern and said "This is Alexithymia. We don't often see this and it is caused by a potential anomaly in the brain in people with Asperger's syndrome.

I was shocked because I had no idea at that point that such a condition existed, and he didn't provide details as to what the condition entailed, or what he or anyone else could do to help me with the condition. I had to look up the details on Google when I got home. At that point I felt trapped.

He also asked what my special interest was, which at that time was getting to the next moment. It was my work that was my special interest that I could no longer do. He replied to the intern that's not good, and didn't offer any details as to why it wasn't good.

The way I observe it now is that my psychiatrist is likely on a broader autism phenotype himself, and I and his other patients are in effect "his special interests".

I reflected on that with my therapist today, and she was shocked he said it that way, but I am not shocked at all now, and have empathy for the fact that is my psychiatrist's nature as a human being.

Interesting as that is how Hans Asperger's lifelong passion to understand "HIS Autistic psychopaths", is described in text in regard to his life history.

I see an almost duplicate passion of "special interest" with Simon Baron Cohen who designs and defines systemizing models of empathy vs. systemizing autistic characteristics in the AQ test to describe those individuals who systemize, not far from what one can view in "HIS special interest" of "systemizing" the "systemizers".

The apples do not fall far from the trees, particularly among those who "systemize" the "Apples".

The therapists that help smile a lot with the accompanying sparkle in the eyes, that means to me they might be able to more fully connect with others.

Cohen smiles a lot and is polite but is missing that "Sparkle", which is a genetic propensity I think, and not something that is reasonably his fault, and not something I think is common in the field of psychiatry or psychology, but more common I think in Social Work among the Licensed Clinical Social Workers.

It is the same quality that I found in the LCSW that was there for grief counseling when my child died. She shares tears with every client as far as I could see. I can't imagine doing that job; it takes a special person.

Yea. I think that will help bridge the gap of opening up because you're less likely to feel judged around people with similar issues. It might be especially good for bringing up the things like past abuse, self harm, and suicidal urges. The things is you'll also have to do more, don't know if this is the right word, instructive therapy as well and that will probably have to be more one-on-one oriented.

You once said the more people get to know you the more they dislike you and that is really the crux of the issue. That probably isn't the real you that's opening up. It's more of a reactive externally focused state of mind. It feels like you're opening up because you're letting off steam and letting your real feelings out, but in reality you're closing down and shutting people out with your emotions, which is but another opposite of true openness. Your just going from one defensive state (the inhibited/secretive state) to another (uninhibited but hostile). I don't think either of those is the real you. I think the real you is trapped in total isolation.

I don't think it's possible to change and be able to share the real person inside without learning to deal with irritating triggers or the feeling of being judged and wanting to lash out or escalate a conflict. Changing that pattern and coming up with alternative ways to react to the situation, even under deep agitation or anger, will probably be the hard part. I don't think there's a way to improve by completely avoiding triggers and the therapy itself will probably trigger you at times. If the therapists fails to get you out of your shell by being completely passive they probably won't do you any good. That's probably the reason everything was overlooked for so long in the first place. It's not necessarily that you had terrible shrinks. It's just that they couldn't mind-read you. It's sort of a catch-22 because difficulty communicating your true issues is part of the picture as well. But you were finally able to communicate indirectly through the testing so that is thankfully now water under the bridge.

Anyways, hope this makes sense.

I think what happened was I saw a conflict and wanted to do something about it. I made a faux pas by pointing out what I observed and realized it was kind of patronizing to both of you how I went about it. I don't think I've been deliberately trying to guilt trip but I suppose I did if that's how it came across. I was feeling overly embarrassed for some reason. Anyways, it's no big deal now.

Thanks for your feedback.

Interesting in discussion as people will observe comments differently based on their personal involvement and unique life perspectives also expressed in discussions. As a side observer, I personally observed your comments almost exactly as how you describe your intentions.

I have never noticed conscious malice of intent in your statements on this site, and do not think it would be easy for you to do it even if someone told you to, and you tried to obey their instructions.

That perspective and analysis of your communication is heavily influenced in bias by the way I experience Autism. I have a physically measurable aversion to directing deliberate malice toward others.

With that said, I have done it unintentionally many times in my life, and have been embarrassed and remorseful when it was brought to my attention. I did not personally observe your comments in this discussion as being one of those type of scenarios, per my own unique perspective of this discussion as an observer.

I think 90% of the time I'm incapable of calculated malice, especially not against people I perceive as innocent. However, I tone down my sarcasm a ton on this site compared to some other sites and in even real life where I interact with mainly NTs. If I ever get accused of being malicious, lying, being manipulative, etc... it's always when I'm annoyed by someone or something and I'm in a contemptuous mood.