First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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Serenity, what I meant (now without the sarcasm) is that this method of only messaging when people "feel like it" (which you can see a point in and I don't) can only work when one of the two people is enough of a sucker to be reliable about always responding, unlike the one who only writes when they "feel like". Otherwise, the communication is a string of one-sided messages that go ignored. But if anyone can prove to me that one-sided messages that go ignored by the other all the time is an enjoyable activity, then I'll change my mind, of course. I've broken the rules of this thread, though, by engaging in debate. I feel bad about it now.

I'm not sure this is a debate. I think it's more of a misunderstanding, because I'm a little lost. I don't see a point in one sided messages, and anyone that had done to me what that person did to you would've most likely been removed from my page.

No problem. Erm, I realise my avatar is misleading, I'm actually a guy. Though since the girl I mention that I had considered asking out is straight, her 'deer in the headlights' look would make perfect sense if I were a girl.

Lol, I DO get confused when a guy uses a female avatar. As much as I realize the avatar isn't person, given that it represents the person, I tend to assume the same gender. Except that actually reading your post makes you sound like guy.

Speaking from memory, here are some thoughts I was having on your original questions:

First, the person talking to you and backing off while you were clearing your desk. Is it possible that you mistook hesitation for fear? Why I'm asking is this: in an office setting, working on your desk suggests that you feel too busy to talk to the person. Could he or she have mistaken the activity for you trying to tell him or her to go away? Then, when they figured out that wasn't the signal, they relaxed?

As for backing away from you ... people do that when you are in their personal space. Did you follow, or did you take it as a sign to keep a little distance? How are you on respecting personal space, in general? Remember that women and men tend to have their personal space in different shapes (to the front more than to the side, for example).

Just went back to the original, so I'll quote the last one: "A girl I used to share an office with, had talked to a number of times, had common friends, left some months ago. I've run into her twice on the street, and twice she just looked away, pretending not to see me, with what I think was a 'deer in the headlights' look. I once considered asking her out and, wanting to get to know her better, invited her, along with several other people including a common friend, twice for dinner (different occasions) at my place, both of which she declined (we'd both gone to dinner together, as part of a group, before, so it's not as if we'd never socialised before outside the office). I don't think I was pushy about it, I didn't go on and on about it or anything."

In this case I'd say she is uncomfortable. She could be interested and fearful of that, or she could be completely uninterested and fearful that she will hurt you, or fearful that you will actually ask her out (forcing her to say no), and so on. Either way, male / female relationships can involve hormones and instincts that are purely chemical, and have nothing to do with acting appropriately or inappropriately. Which means, I suggest you simply respect the fact that you seem to make her uncomfortable and try not to read anything more into it.

Regarding the first person, I think it was fear, as he physically backed away while continuing to look at me (rather than turning away) and put his hands in front of him, which I regard as a defensive gesture. He didn't seem to relax until he actually left.

The girl backing away, I just stood where I was as she did so. But she also sort of crouched a little - think an armadillo when frightened. She was also mumbling, which she doesn't usually do. She's not normally shy or easily (or at all) embarrassed. I don't think I got that close to her, the thing is she's Russian and I don't know what personal space rules are like in her culture. (Incidentally this is a problem I always have with physical contact, etc in Britain - I'm never sure what the rules are here). Other times she has not seemed to fear me, so I don't know what was going on.

With the last girl, my issue is that not being interested or even being uncomfortable are one thing, but refusing to greet me and turning away seemingly in fear, twice, seems more serious - there's nothing extraordinary in a girl being uninterested in a particular guy, but being frightened of him is more unusual, particularly as I have never noticed her fear anyone else. For what it's worth, my gut feeling is that she is either indeed frightened of me (not just uncomfortable), or it was a calculated, deliberate insult.

Not sure how related, if at all, this is, but I find I tend to be 'invisible' - people tend to not notice I'm physically there and, as a result, they can get a severe shock if I speak to them or anything as they didn't realise I was there - ironically enough I once startled a girl who many find scary (among other reasons, for her interest in subjects such as the life cycle of fly larvae on corpses) almost to heart-attack point just by running into her (she was relieved when she realised it was just me). My mom (who I've startled many times) says I walk very silently, like a cat.

Thanks.

PS While the actress shown in my avatar is a girl, the character she's playing isn't.

With the last girl, I didn't mean to say there was no fear, just not fear of "you" so much as fear of what you imply, ie having to make it clear that she isn't interested, and worry about leading you on. Its a funny girl thing; we don't know how to deal with the men we don't like for dates, and we don't know how to deal with the men we do like; confronting either end can be a fearful experience. Until you get married, at least, because then there aren't guys who might think you are available, and there aren't guys you are trying to attract. Or, at least, that is how its been for me. There were plenty of men that I avoided in my single days simply because dealing with everything the encounter might mean was too hard.

The woman on the street ... since its was limited to a particular situation, I would suggest her reaction may have been less about you than about something you are were not involved in or were unaware of. There is no way to know; just let that one go and allow yourself to believe that maybe she was stressed for some reason, or caught being on the street when she was supposed to be working, or ...

And the stranger. Well, if he really did seem definsive, and the nature of the conversation didn't give him cause to be, then he could be the sort that is always jittery, or he could have reacted to something from the first impression. If you have a strong or unusual fashion style or manner of appearance, that may have been it. If he thought you came across as gay, that could have been it (there are still many people who erroneously think they have perfect gaydar and are also afraid of those they peg as such). If your movements clearing the desk appeared jerky or out of place for someone in a conversation (and that would be true in most cases; when you are talking to someone the polite thing is to give them your full attention), that may have been it. Some AS do come off as so different that strangers will be wary of them, but I don't feel that is the standard case. More often it happens through violating some social rule, or making an odd fashion choice, or failing a basic hygiene stanard, all of which can convey messages you didn't intend to send.

Great idea! I'll post questions when I come up w/ them.

Here's a group of somewhat related questions for NT's (and aspies/auties w/ experience w/ this):

How can you interpret the emotions and/or opinions of others? Especially based on specific situations? Only thing I've learned to do so far is once I recognize something in one person, if I see it in someone else I assume in may mean the same thing. This a bad idea? And, how do you tell if someone has a crush on you or not (clueless & its been bad b/c of it here)?

Ex. I had a couple panic attacks in HS and still do not know how some of the people who saw them took it for sure...
1st time friends seemed in shock (sat frozen watching) than some people avoided me like the plaque for weeks or permanently, some tried to goad me into having more attacks, & a few looked like they wanted might have wanted to kill/beat up the "goaders" (their faces went between squinched in pain/shock/anger from what I could tell).
2nd guy who accidently caused apologized, class frozen/permanently distant, dude who caused it freaked if our teacher wanted us to do something together, stared at me a lot... (I had a friend who thought this guy had a rush on me ... God I hope she was wrong...) He eventually seemed fine, (didn't notice me at all by the time he graduated/7 mos. later)... but than he ended up visiting my one class again after he graduated & once he saw me, basically hid in a corner of the room 'til he & his friends left. How the heck can you interpret that? It been driving me nuts b/c I'd like to avoid repeats!

I hadn't considered that the second girl might have been supposed to be somewhere else, it's perfectly plausible.



If he (assuming he isn't already your friend, that he's someone you know only a little) seems to want to talk to you when there is no practical reason for him to do so, or if he talks to you more than mere politeness requires when there is such a reason, if he actively seeks you out, he probably at least wants to get to know you a bit more - he may have a crush on you or be intrigued by you (which may or may not lead to a crush). If he seems nervous (not scared) around you but still seeks your company, without a practical reason, he's probably a shy guy with a crush on you. Note that if a guy has crush on you, he may not ask you out for a number of reasons, such as assuming (rightly or wrongly) that you're not interested.



I think people, rationally or irrationally, when they witness sudden, unexpected behaviour that is way outside what they consider 'normal,' react, probably instinctively, with fear - fear of being attacked, fear of their friends being attacked and, among those that care about you, fear of you hurting yourself. My guess is that those that kept avoiding you were still frightened, and wrote you off as 'weird.' In the case of your friends, another immediate fear may have been fear of making things worse, of doing or saying the wrong thing.

Quotes from pbcoll:
[/quote]If he (assuming he isn't already your friend, that he's someone you know only a little) seems to want to talk to you when there is no practical reason for him to do so, or if he talks to you more than mere politeness requires when there is such a reason, if he actively seeks you out, he probably at least wants to get to know you a bit more - he may have a crush on you or be intrigued by you (which may or may not lead to a crush). If he seems nervous (not scared) around you but still seeks your company, without a practical reason, he's probably a shy guy with a crush on you. Note that if a guy has crush on you, he may not ask you out for a number of reasons, such as assuming (rightly or wrongly) that you're not interested.[/quote]

Well, I don't know this guy anymore, but the thing was I thought he just thought I was the odd shy girl before this happened b/c we never talked & if he did talk to me it was random stuff like saying he's allergic to peppers or asking me if I'd rub oil all over him than wrestle him (':eew:'). What the heck? I assumed he was just a jerk wad until he started freaking out whenever he saw me. I only ever thought it may have been a crush that I destroyed b/c my one friend saw him staring at me & she guessed he had a crush on me. I don't know. I just wondered so I could know what to expect if something like that ever happens again. (And if I should expect him to hide if he sees me again like last time/a year after it happened. )

pbcoll [/quote]I think people, rationally or irrationally, when they witness sudden, unexpected behaviour that is way outside what they consider 'normal,' react, probably instinctively, with fear - fear of being attacked, fear of their friends being attacked and, among those that care about you, fear of you hurting yourself. My guess is that those that kept avoiding you were still frightened, and wrote you off as 'weird.' In the case of your friends, another immediate fear may have been fear of making things worse, of doing or saying the wrong thing.[/quote]

Makes sense they'd react with fear, though obviously I hate it if people avoid someone b/c of such an incident. Me, I still treat the person pretty much the same, but I don't do whatever set them off before (ex. don't mention someone who upsets them or don't touch them, or don't get pissed if they grab my/your chest randomly (don't ask ). I think part of my problem is I've never really been around decent normal people to the point that I automatically expect everyone around me to have some major problem or be a total jerk.

It sounds like he wanted solely sex rather than wanted to date you.

Last edited by pbcoll on 21 Sep 2009, 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hot to trot line topic

Question to NT parents of auties: Are you embarrassed about your child's behaviour?

Elaborate, please.

Well, when he does the baby act - he is 12 - in public, and even 5 year olds are asking why, it can be a little uncomfortable. I don't really care anymore, it all is what it is, but my husband really hates it when he acts like that, he doesn't want to be seen with him, I guess its the "people will think we're horrible parents to allow that" thing. We do try to tell our son that certain things should be reigned in outside of the privacy of our own home, simply because that is the way it is.

Scene and herd in public topic

Thank you DW. the reason i am asking is that I have witnessed this. For some reason I was not embarrassed by the behaviour I saw. The child was talking a lot, and perhaps this exasperated his caregiver/mom. I would have welcomed this from my NT children, who were the opposite extreme--very phoney, rather quiet in public, worried about reactions from others, or being the subject of gossip from friends/neighbours. My kids acted out when younger, and then mysteriously stopped at about age five. If they were angry, they would leave the store--and I would follow. Then they would try to persuade me to buy something unnecessary, and I would refuse. (Shopaholics, and spoiled, by their father. )

I have always maintained that all behaviour is done for a reason, and I try to get to the bottom and explain to my NT kids that manipulation does not work. Compromise is how we do it, based on the rules of common sense. But in the case of AS, the acting out is different, and must be managed differently. (I have no experience in that area as my three children are NT.) But of course, violent or strange behaviour is obviously not to be encouraged. as societal norms are in effect.

Thank you for your input.

"Question to NT parents of auties: Are you embarrassed about your child's behaviour?"

Hi sartresue: Sometimes...how's that for a wishy-washy answer

When my 14yo Aspie son was younger, there were more embarrasing moments because he was, well, younger and less well behaved, and I was even more naive (naiver?) than I am now. As we've all matured there have been fewer embarrasing moments. And, let me assure you, I am quite capable of embarrasing myself. A recent example is, about a month ago he asked me out loud in a restaraunt "Dad, what's a vibrator?" To which I replied "a what?" and then he repeated his question out loud. Lesson #1, don't ask him to repeat himself in these situations. So there's an example how both of us contributed to an embarrasing moment. Needless to say, this was embarrasing but amusing at the same time. From an early age I have tried to use these as "teachable moments" and explain to him in very literal and certain terms why the behavior is inappropriate and then we brainstorm together alternative behaviors.

Come to think of it, my other son who is NT also did embarrasing things when he was young. Also, I think both children are at an age where they are embarrased by me. So, yeah, sometimes I'm embarrased by my child's behavior but it goes both ways.

I really like this discussion topic.

I like it too. Why don't you start a thread about it?

But how could your son know that a vibrator is an inappropriate subject of discussion in a public place if he didn't know what a vibrator was in the first place?????