Do you want to be 'cured' of Asperger's Syndrome?

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Mdyar
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21 Aug 2010, 1:04 pm

Evan7 wrote:
I suppose my biggest problem with this 'disorder' is with social issues (making and maintaining friendly/romantic relationships, etc)


Indeed; the isolation, and especially the romantic part of this - the lonliness and other needs .

And I would want that "pill" to allow me full access to my 'potential': From personal experience , executive dysfunction inhibits this range of command and control when a demand is present-- most everything flies out the window when you need the 'ability' or knowledge; it's all there, but --" full access denied" . :huh:


Edit to add:

This neurology is all pervasive and encompassing; from the corpus callosum, to larger white matter volume , to cortical module systems activated in a non sequential manner , to the frontal lobes , and to higher "mini-column" densities .

The brain is entirely wired differently here, and there could never be pill that could change this.



Last edited by Mdyar on 21 Aug 2010, 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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21 Aug 2010, 1:57 pm

AS is a disability because it causes impairment, because there are skills that are very low in autistic people, including Aspies, that are expected of NTs in our society. That's what a disability is. Disability doesn't mean you can't be successful and doesn't mean you can't be good at something. If Bill Gates is autistic, it doesn't mean autism isn't a disability; it just means that Microsoft has a disabled CEO.

And "disabled pride" is very much like any other minority-group pride movement. It's a way of saying, "I'm a part of this group; I'm not ashamed of it; and it's part of my identity." Look into "black pride", for example; there's nothing superior about producing more melanin (unless you're trying to avoid skin cancer rather than produce optimum amounts of Vitamin D), and yet plenty of black people will agree with the statement, "I'm black, I like being black, it's part of my identity and I wouldn't want to change it." Their skin color exposes them to prejudice in many places, and yet they are still proud of who they are. Disabled people who are proud of who they are is a similar thing.

There are even disability subcultures (Deaf was the first one, but there are more) popping up, including the autism community enabled by the advent of the Internet. At my school, where we have a lot of disabled people, we are getting to know each other and realizing how much we have in common. There's a weak subculture ("weak" as in "we don't isolate ourselves from non-members of the subculture") of disabled people growing up here, and in a lot of other places too where we get a chance to meet and talk, because people like hanging out with others who have things in common with, and that's what starts a subculture to begin with.

Autism pride is mostly about saying, "Yeah, I'm autistic. Yeah, I'm disabled. I But those are not bad things. I like who I am, and anybody who says I'm inferior can just go take a hike."


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21 Aug 2010, 2:30 pm

I would never want to lose the increased intelligence and greater powers of perception, which are often common in those with AS, and just as often found severely lacking in ordinary people. I do however fully intend to overcome all of the limitations which come with it until I am only left with advantages.

There are even some supposedly negative aspects which can actually turn out to be positive when viewed the right way. For example a lot of people with AS find many (but not all) of the most prevalent forms of social interaction between people to be bewildering and pointless, considering much of it to be a total waste of time. Normally they will be told that this is a defect, but I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that there are a lot more important things that people could spend their time doing other than getting caught up in "small talk" for no reason other than to appear friendly to people who, to put it bluntly, often don't matter at all.

The tendency to be blunt and straight to the point is another thing which those with AS are often criticized for, usually by people who are oversensitive to the truth and would rather be told lies (which is, again, another fault which many of us do not possess either) but in reality it is much more practical to be honest to ourselves and to others when doing things like offering advice.

Sure, none of us are likely to be candidates for the world's most needlessly friendly person, but because of this nature we have a much more firm grasp on the difference between what is important and what isn't, than ordinary people do, and with the right amount of tweaking and adjustment to our little inner-compasses, that feature of ourselves has the potential to afford us a much greater focus on things which actually do matter. Speaking in evolutionary terms, if autists were a "species" (which I'm not saying we are) there is a fair chance that with enough effort they could leave other more primitive species way behind. While all the dogs sit around smelling each other's backsides and the monkeys groom each others fur, some high-functioning autists with the will to do so could meticulously draw up the blueprints for a nice little petting zoo to keep them all in. :lol:



raisedbyignorance
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21 Aug 2010, 9:32 pm

It seems to be coming up again that a lot of people dont want a cure because they dont want to lose their 'personality'...

To me...no personality in the world is worth what I have to put up with everyday.

The teasing, the harrasment, the ignorance of an NT world, the social inability to pass a job interview or let alone keep a job, the constant judging I am getting for my social skills, the constant losing of friends for using the wrong social cues, a family who wont accept that there are some things I just cant socially do, the inability to return affection or maintain it, the constant questioning I get from NTs on a daily basis, the constant labeling of being the "quiet girl" or "mean girl", the jokes I have to hear about me in my face, the constant mistakening of being underage...

...I know there's more but you catch my drift. I'm a sensitive person who gets yelled at constantly for something related to my AS. Yes I would love to be able to be myself whenever I want to but to me it's not worth the suffering I have to deal with dealing with other people everyday...

...It's even worse when I'm alone cause I have to deal with the flashbacks

I've always considered myself a unique case. Because I am a girl who is half asian it's harder for me to find people to relate to and my AS is often dismissed as an Asian stereotype...aside from that I must deal with boys who constantly tease me because they're attracted to me (I have difficulty reciprocating or responding to this so this is hell to me)...Besides, I'd rather have unrequited feelings for someone than to have a whole lot of them have feelings for me only for them to change their minds once my AS issues kicks in.

I'm glad most of you are able to deal with this with a strong case of pride but as someone who doesnt fit in with even other Aspies...I just dont have it in me.

And BTW I'm not intelligent or gifted (so I must be a total misfit among Aspies). It takes me hours or even days to even come up with the righ social responses. My brain has difficulty assessing what others day and needs all the time in the world to figure what what was said and what needs to be said in return. It's hell.



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21 Aug 2010, 10:24 pm

Someone seems to post this topic about once a week on Wrongplanet. Shouldn't one of these "do you want to be cured" threads become a sticky?

Moderators...what say you?

Anyway..for what is probably the 25th time....yes I do want to be cured. In fact...I would be extremely tempted to sell my immortal soul (if there was such a thing and Mephistopheles approached me with the offer) in exchange for a cure.

I seem to have serious neurological problems which most people with AS do not share however. Thus....the problems i'm referring to are things most here cannot relate to in any sense. They are cognitive/memory issues which usually aren't associated with AS. My life would be a tiptoe through the tulips if the ONLY problems I had were the ones usually associated with AS. Along with the aforementioned problems, I have most, if not all, the common AS-associated ones as well. In other words....I have got the best of both worlds :roll: I cannot emphasize enough that the social deficits I (and most with NLD/AS) have are the very least of my concerns. Indeed, i'm somewhat grateful to have them in a very odd and complicated sense I probably would never be able to elaborate upon adequately.

Such things are par for the course for me since I feel i'm oddest, most complicated, perplexing and incongruous humans i've ever encountered.

Rather, I am sick of not being able to understand any math beyond simple addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. I am sick of not being able to understand anything mechanical which is more complicated than screwing in a lightbulb. I am sick of not being able to remember alot of facts even when it comes to subjects I do understand. I am sick of not having any computer skills and seemingly the lack of aptitude and memory to aquire any. I am sick of not being able to become proficient at a musical instrument in spite of the fact i've been trying to play one (guitar..on and off) for 25 years. I could go on and on here....but i've made myself clear.

All this and i've been told my IQ is anywhere from the high average to very superior range on five out of the seven professionally-administered IQ tests i've taken. On the remaining two...my scores were squarely average (104) and low-ish average (94.) I have scored as high as 143 on the second-to-last one four years ago. All this and i've been told all aspects of my memory are normal (save visual memory which is often poor in people with NVLD/AS) and many aspects of it are even above-average or superior.


These psychometric test results are utterly inconsistent with the real-world abilites (or rather..lack thereof) I previously mentioned and I mentioned but a few. All i've been told is that I fit the characteristcs of that unofficial learning/neurological disorder known as NLD/NVLD. As many of you know...NLD shares many similiarities with AS and may even be the same disorder though the jury is still out on that one.

While I really couldn't afford any further and more comprehensive neuropsychological testing beyond the standard testing i've undergone seven times, I feel it would be only thing which MIGHT be able to identify the ultimate source, validity and extent of my cognitive/memory problems.


I say "validity" because most people (including the psychologists/neuropsychologists who have tested me over the years) don't believe my problems are as severe as I believe they are. While they don't believe i'm "malingering" (lying) about them, they think that i've exagerrated, or even, imagined them. So...everyone else may be right and I may be wrong for all I for CERTAIN.





All I can say is that they seem very, very real ( that is neurologically, rather than psychologically, based) to me and they always have. The neuropsychologist who just tested me told me, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, that it is entirely possible for an individual to have significant memory problems which elude detection on the standard neuropsychological tests of memory. His statements here would be consistent with my own researches (mostly online) about memory, the shortcomings of the conventional neuropsychological tests of memory, etc.....

When I subsequently asked him if he would recommend any futher testing (to OVR who insisted upon this latest neuropsych eval and covered the costs of it) beyond what I was currently undergoing with him, he was unsure at first. In my follow-up appointment with him in which I received my results, he said he wouldn't recommend any and his following statements on the official report of my neuropsych evaluation clarify his reasoning for not believing any further testing was in order in my case. I will include only the relevant parts from various sections of this report.

Behavioral Observations:

"The patient was noted to be pleasant and cooperative. He was quite obsessed with his condition. He brought in not only the six reports ( the results of my previous neuropsych evals/IQ tests) but a great number of articles about his condition and information that he had either found through the research or was generated as part of online discussion" (most was online discussions i've had here with others on Wrongplanet).

Personality Evaluation:

"This profile pattern (from the MMPI) is indicative of an individual who has exceptionally poor view of self as well as substantial concerns about physical, emotional and cognitive functioning. He may be somewhat alienated and isolated with a generally negative view of himself and others. This MMPI seems consistent with his clincal presentation and reported behavior at home and indicates an individual who is experiencing a marked mood disorder. He is clearly anxious about his condition. In actuality, he is obsessed with regard to how he functions and the problems he perceives to face on a regular basis. He does not seem to desire or seek out relationships with others. He is very involved with his own research. He primarily engages in solitary activities other than communication with people through the internet. He has a somewhat flat affect and even seems to some extent somewhat detached. He is not however psychotic".


Summary of Findings:


"Neuropsychological testing together with educational, employment, and life history indicates an individual of overall premorbid mental abilities likely in the high average to superior range. He clearly has problems with speed of processing, which limits functioning. He may also have some frontal lobe deficits, which creates difficulties with functioning as well. It seems likely these problems are premorbid in nature and not necessarily the reflective of an aquired injury. Toward this end, his language processing skills are poor. Test of executive functioning reveals slowing. Visual organizational ability is poor. There are visual perceptual deficits noted. Written arithmetic skills are poor. With regard to learning, he particularily has problems with visual learning. Visual memory was consistent with new learning. Verbal learning and memory appear to be within normal limits and actually was reflective of substantial consolidation again probably reflective of poor auditory processing to begin with".

Impression:


"This is a very complicated condition, but it is quite clear that he is experiencing some measurable problems. He clearly has some sort of auditory processing deficit which creates problems with learning. He also has significant visual perceptual deficits and less than expected visual memory. Morover, executive functioning is less than expected. Clearly then he is experiencing some form of learning disorder which could quite possibly be somewhat reflective of a nonverbal learning disability but he also has a relative deficit in learning math. Additionally, it should be noted that testing is not consistent with attention deficit disorder despite all these problems. His mood symptoms and personality style are clearly a complicating factor as well contribute not only to his subjective experience of cognitive impairment but also his objective test findings".


Diagnostic Impression:

Axis-I: 315.9 learning disorder NOS, 300 anxiety disorder NOS (with features of obsessive-compulsive thinking and generalized anxiety disorder), 300.4 dysthymic disorder.

Axis-II: 301.20 schizoid personality disorder (although he clearly has features of avoidant and schizotypal personality disorders).

Axis-III: None

Axis-IV: Limited social support, unemployment, financial limitations.

Axis-V: GAF=60

Recommendations


"This individual has had a chronic over-focus on his condition and perception of his impairment. He has been obsessed with the evaluation of his condition and does not feel that his condition has ever been adequately evaluated, diagnosed, or addressed. This began as early as 1993 and has persisted for the last 17 years. It is likely he will be unhappy with his current evaluation as well. While additional assessment would allow for a more comprehensive evaluation of his condition, this would only serve to reinforce the problem that is facing him.

He needs to be helped through supportive counseling to move past his search for what is wrong and really focus more on the solution for how he can improve his life. He clearly is intellectually capable of working, going to school and obtaining a college degree and otherwise functioning somewhat effectively. Unfortunately, his psychological condition is a substantial barrier.

Psychological counseling is recommended. He is particpating now with a counselor through *blank*, and this will need to continue. The focus of that treatment should be on goals for his future as opposed to continuing to focus on the problems facing him. If he tries to go back to school, it is strongly recommended that he not try to complete a math requirement. Instead it would be best for him to try to find an appropriate substitute and to otherwise focus on classes where he is likely to be successful as opposed to continuing to feel frustrated with failure or at least significant struggle. It is recognized that it is his goal to try to be successful, but it is better that he would go back to try to complete math only after he has a history of success to support him. With regard to work, he should be focusing on language-based tasks that involve research or other activities and not a great deal of interaction with individuals. For instance a job as a paralegal would be a good job for him because of his strengths and the requirements of this job. He could also consider working in other research positions. This possibility was pointed out to him, and he seemed to believe that this would be non-stimulating (I would HATE paralegal studies at least and/or working as a paralegal. Law is an intolerably boring subject to me.) Clearly however these types of tasks would help him to be most successful as they would tap into his verbal strengths".


Well....he was right about one thing at least. I AM unhappy with this current evaluation. :x On one hand he admits there may be something else wrong with me (particularily with memory) which simply can't be determined by any of the tests he administered and on the other, he refused to recommend any further tests because they would "reinforce the problem that is facing me". As if my self-esteem and self-perception could be any worse after 40 years of this hellish neurological nightmare. It would be nice to KNOW, ONCE and FOR ALL what i'm facing here already. He is only basing his ideas of what i'm "capable" of on all the neuropsychological/IQ (and all the other psychs/neuropsychs who've tested me over the years) tests he administered while at the same time admitting their limitations.


My only hope now of finding out anything further about my condition lies in the autism research study i'm participating in at the University of Pittsburgh in late September. Even though that study includes at least one MRI scan, I doubt i'll learn anything further from any of the neuroimaging they do in this study at least. Still...I will be dealing with researches who probably know more about cutting-edge neuropsychology than this recent neuropsych I saw. Based upon my impression, he and his neurologist colleagues at the place OVR sent me to are used to dealing with more "common-cold" patients like those suffering from Alzheimer's (this is Florida after all and the elderly are ubiquitous here) and other more common and relatively better-understood neurological/neuropsychological conditions.

So yeah....to say the very least..i'd say a cure would be most welcome in my case.



Last edited by Horus on 22 Aug 2010, 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Horus
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21 Aug 2010, 10:50 pm

raisedbyignorance wrote:


Quote:
And BTW I'm not intelligent or gifted (so I must be a total misfit among Aspies). It takes me hours or even days to even come up with the righ social responses. My brain has difficulty assessing what others day and needs all the time in the world to figure what what was said and what needs to be said in return. It's hell.



That's exactly the way I FEEL regardless of whether you or I are "intelligent or gifted" (both being subjective terms in the first place IMO) in any objective sense or not. Perhaps you know how it feels to see countless people here who share your diagnosis discoursing about countless topics which you can't even understand the basics of. I come to WP and get X+Y2K=E=MCsquared (F=.35)-B/OxR=1.777-.314, etc....when i'm still trying to figure how to divide fractions!! ! :x All this is hardly limited to math either. I even got upset reading a thread in another forum in which a member was getting advice about her grandmother's roof. All these people were able to give her expert advice and they probably have never worked as roofers. I, on other hand, am lucky to know the difference between a roof and a basement considering my abysmal mechanical/visual-spatial skills.

It all makes me hate myself, "god" (i.e....whatever is responsible for my creation and the human species in general) and envy everyone else more than I can ever say. The rage and pain that I dutifully keep bottled up inside me would obliterate all infinity if it could be weaponized. And people wonder why I find black/death metal (and other "darker" forms of heavy metal) music so appealing. Other than the more sorrowful and morbid symphony music, blues, new age stuff, etc....it's the only music I can relate to.

Thus...I feel like the ultimate misfit among some of planet's biggest misfits.


Perhaps the most impossible thing for me to comprehend is why anyone in MY particular situation shouldn't/wouldn't wish to be "cured".

At what point is there NO answers and "silver linings" for some of us?

Doesn't reality allow for such things?



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21 Aug 2010, 10:51 pm

Horus wrote:
Rather, I am sick of not being able to understand any math beyond simple addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. I am sick of not being able to understand anything mechanical which is more complicated than screwing in a lightbulb. I am sick of not being able to remember alot of facts even when it comes to subjects I do understand. I am sick of not having any computer skills and seemingly the lack of aptitude and memory to aquire any. I am sick of not being able to become proficient at a musical instrument in spite of the fact i've been trying to play one (guitar..on and off) for 25 years. I could go on and on here....but i've made myself clear.

And if you weren't autistic - you still couldn't do any of these things, but instead of faulting yourself for it, you'd consider it a virtue. You would mock those who can do math, or repair things (while remaining convinced that you really could rebuild your car from spare parts "if you really had to"). You'd sneer at the "nerds" and "geeks" who can operate, program, and repair computers, instead of doing important things like drinking beer and watching football. If you couldn't master a musical instrument in a maximum of three tries, you'd call it "stupid" and insist that anyone who can play the instrument is probably gay ('cause if they could get women, they wouldn't bother with wimpy things like music, would they?).

In other words, you'd have the same skill sets (or lack thereof), but you'd think that each one marks you as better than anyone else. (And yet, you'd probably sneer at "elitists" who "think they're better than anyone else." This is called "hypocrisy.")


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22 Aug 2010, 12:16 am

Quote:
And if you weren't autistic - you still couldn't do any of these things, but instead of faulting yourself for it, you'd consider it a virtue. You would mock those who can do math, or repair things (while remaining convinced that you really could rebuild your car from spare parts "if you really had to"). You'd sneer at the "nerds" and "geeks" who can operate, program, and repair computers, instead of doing important things like drinking beer and watching football. If you couldn't master a musical instrument in a maximum of three tries, you'd call it "stupid" and insist that anyone who can play the instrument is probably gay ('cause if they could get women, they wouldn't bother with wimpy things like music, would they?).

In other words, you'd have the same skill sets (or lack thereof), but you'd think that each one marks you as better than anyone else. (And yet, you'd probably sneer at "elitists" who "think they're better than anyone else." This is called "hypocrisy.")



With all due respect DeaconBlues, you seem to be stereotyping both NT's and people with AS/ASD here. I feel as though the issues which have tormented me more than anything else in my life ever has (or ever could) have served as a sounding board for your bitterness (justified or not) against NT's. While i'm sure there are some NT's who act like the ones you were potraying, i'd say they are the exception rather than the rule. Nor do I believe all those with AS/ASD value the things I mentioned (math, computers, etc....) regardless of whether they have any aptitude for them or not.



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22 Aug 2010, 12:28 am

I do not.

While it would make life in general easier, it would potentially take away some of the things I like about the life I have right now.

However, contrary to popular belief on WP, becoming NT would NOT be a sentence to a lifetime of idiocy. NTs are not all mindless drones committed to "Being NT," just as we are not all geeks and dorks committed to "Being Aspie." People can be divided into as many man-made** categories as you want. AS and NT are just two of them, two categories that hardly have as much importance as people here place on them. I'm not encouraging people to discard their identity, but this superiority complex that plagues WP is foolish.

Basically, I wholeheartedly agree with the previous poster.

**Before someone gets technical with this, I'm posting from the perspective that nature made people how they are, but people came up with the category names that separate us.



Last edited by Blasty on 22 Aug 2010, 12:39 am, edited 3 times in total.

Horus
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22 Aug 2010, 12:34 am

Does anyone else believe this should be a sticky thread?


Someone brings up this topic about once a week or something.


I believe we've had something like 20 "do you wish to cured?" threads in the past few months.



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22 Aug 2010, 1:07 am

Blasty wrote:
I do not.

While it would make life in general easier, it would potentially take away some of the things I like about the life I have right now.

However, contrary to popular belief on WP, becoming NT would NOT be a sentence to a lifetime of idiocy. NTs are not all mindless drones committed to "Being NT," just as we are not all geeks and dorks committed to "Being Aspie." People can be divided into as many man-made** categories as you want. AS and NT are just two of them, two categories that hardly have as much importance as people here place on them. I'm not encouraging people to discard their identity, but this superiority complex that plagues WP is foolish.

Basically, I wholeheartedly agree with the previous poster.

**Before someone gets technical with this, I'm posting from the perspective that nature made people how they are, but people came up with the category names that separate us.


It's still a fairly valid assumption that the loss of certain autistic traits would likely render many people less perceptive in general. Regardless of how arbitrarily different categories and types are created and labeled, certain desirable traits fall into the arbitrarily defined AS category and are largely absent in the arbitrarily defined NT (or "cured") category.

Noticing arrogance or feelings of superiority in certain people and recognising your own feelings of negativity toward those personal qualities doesn't automatically make them baseless, unjustified, wrong or misplaced in any way. :?



Last edited by Invader on 22 Aug 2010, 1:16 am, edited 3 times in total.

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22 Aug 2010, 1:13 am

Invader wrote:
It's still a fairly valid assumption that the loss of certain autistic traits would likely render many people less perceptive in general. Regardless of how arbitrarily different categories and types are created and labeled, certain desirable traits fall into the arbitrarily defined AS category and are largely absent in the arbitrarily defined NT (or "cured") category.

Yes, which is why I might lose some of what I like about my life were I to become NT. While we do have some traits that are superior to theirs, we should remember that they also have traits that our superior to ours. Such is the situation with many sets of groups. But there seems to be this general feeling around here that NTs are less intelligent, and/or just cookie-cut fad-following sheep. Not referring to anyone in particular, I've seen the same thing on WP now and then.

I am not protesting our differences; they are certainly there. It's the stereotypes that have come about on either side, especially when the categories have names.



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22 Aug 2010, 1:25 am

kx250rider wrote:
MONIQUEIJ wrote:
Craig28 wrote:
I would love to be cured. I want AS eradicated for good, I am sick of hearing all this crap about disabled pride, its all BS.


May I have your full opinion on why disable pride it b.s


And further; how is AS a disability? Last time I heard, Bill Gates is functioning just fine, and I'm not in too bad of a spot myself. Higher intelligence, which is commonly believed to be a prerequisute to AS, is indeed often a disability when stuck together with NT people in public schools, but beyond that, I find it to be an asset.

Charles


I find that AS is more of a disorder and should be classed as such by the medical community worldwide.



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22 Aug 2010, 4:38 am

I would give anything to be cured. I hate being so close to being 'normal' and yet so far away... On the surface it seems better than when I was younger but inside it's not that much different... If anyone wants to test any potential cures - particularly for asexuality - I will happily be first in line :D



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22 Aug 2010, 5:06 am

if being cured of AS meant that social skills would magicaly come to me then yes. of course, thats not gonna happen, we would still be used to behaving in the way we do.

im not happy to have AS, but i think if i were cured then i would have to learn to deal with a whole new personality and would probably screw everything ive achieved for myself thus far up in trying. i can take a geuss that it would very frustrating.


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22 Aug 2010, 10:51 am

So some of you would sacrifice who you are to be happy... Fine.

But NT's come in all shapes, and I really really cannot stand the low IQ NT. I mean if you want to be like that... sure, you would have many FRIENDS, but you wouldn't have people like me as a friend.

I'm not a genius and some of my skills are completely sucky. I love computers and I'm a much above user, yet I'm not into systems even if I wish I was. I wish I was into hardware too. Math.... when I took one of the tests when getting diagnosed the psych was totally surprised I couldn't do math because I had been very bright on some other parts. She was like Lets skip the easy stuff and onto your level. What is 374+732 and 73*9 and those things. I was like STOP, start with the easiest. Which i JUST BARELY could do.

Still, I know I have skills and it's about finding where you belong. I totally refuse someone is useless at everything. But in todays world we're really never presented with all the options, we're given false info See this is how school is and this is how living is and jobs... Of course people will think they have nothing to offer then!

A lot want better social skills. Sure, I get in trouble, tears sometimes, but... I don't think my life should include many people. Why would I have to be around people all day long? If you work, there are jobs not including many people. If you make a life in some other manner you could meet people on your terms.

My dream is having a farm. That would rock.