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Roxas_XIII
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30 Mar 2011, 12:27 am

I'm weird with forgiving, because I can hold a grudge for years and then drop it at the first sign of remorse from the person in question.

If someone wrongs me, I'll usually have beef with them, but if they can give me a straight up apology for doing so, I usually forgive them then. Of course, they have to make it at least sound sincere.


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daspie
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30 Mar 2011, 12:50 am

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

That's not revenge. That's having a spine.

These are minor forms of revenges.


Not really. Revenge is all about getting back at someone, whereas the other is about making sure nobody walks all over you.

Some do take the latter so far that it crosses into revenge, but they are by no means the same thing.

Well these are just differences in statement.



daspie
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30 Mar 2011, 12:54 am

Roxas_XIII wrote:
I'm weird with forgiving, because I can hold a grudge for years and then drop it at the first sign of remorse from the person in question.

If someone wrongs me, I'll usually have beef with them, but if they can give me a straight up apology for doing so, I usually forgive them then. Of course, they have to make it at least sound sincere.

I think their is a difference between NTs holding a grudge and aspie doing the same. NTs get over the bad feeling but they never forgive and as soon the opportune time comes they avenge and we(aspies) keep holding the grudge and thereby feel pain throughout, I reckon that this is so because we have problem shifting attention. This is the same cognition that let us have special interests or hyper focus. And as soon as we forget we tend to forgive. And as people have written on this thread that they forgive but not forget. Therefore it can be said that-
Aspies forgive but not forget(permanently) and NTs forget(temporarily) but not forgive.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 2:23 am

daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

That's not revenge. That's having a spine.

These are minor forms of revenges.


Not really. Revenge is all about getting back at someone, whereas the other is about making sure nobody walks all over you.

Some do take the latter so far that it crosses into revenge, but they are by no means the same thing.

Well these are just differences in statement.


How?


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OJani
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30 Mar 2011, 5:05 am

Roxas_XIII wrote:
I'm weird with forgiving, because I can hold a grudge for years and then drop it at the first sign of remorse from the person in question.

If someone wrongs me, I'll usually have beef with them, but if they can give me a straight up apology for doing so, I usually forgive them then. Of course, they have to make it at least sound sincere.

I'm much like this.

I'm not sure if it's relevant that I feel much more affection to selected persons in my life than usually 'NT'-s do, and bc of that, I feel more grudge when things turn out bad.

When I feel my abilities have been devalued strictly and undeservedly, I feel strong, almost unbearable grudge, and I do every stupid move that legal to straighten it up.



daspie
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30 Mar 2011, 6:36 am

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

That's not revenge. That's having a spine.

These are minor forms of revenges.


Not really. Revenge is all about getting back at someone, whereas the other is about making sure nobody walks all over you.

Some do take the latter so far that it crosses into revenge, but they are by no means the same thing.

Well these are just differences in statement.


How?

By revenge I meant that if someone harms you then you do the same. Harm can be a social harm i.e. by insulting someone, it can be stealing someone's "resources". Since we are not good at language(see my signatures) and theory of mind,to find out appropriate revenge ToM is required as people avenge in the same manner as in which they were wronged. For e.g. if you found out a doctor's clinic from internet and he then advices you a therapy which is costly. Now, you wanna check its efficacy by reading its review on the internet and while leaving you asked again"What was the name that you told?" A smart person would not ask in that manner because by doing that you are isolating the question and thereby being direct about your intention. Doctor, if he knows that your are not socially smart, might say to other junior doctor sitting besides"Ya.....he going to check it on the net"
A befitting reply would be"That is very place where I found your address in the first place". But since our brain does not think on that higher level we are not able to think that reply out at least in the real time. This is why we are left with frustration. I have a theory on asperger's syndrome which I am developing further and would like to work it on with Dr. simon baron-cohen.



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30 Mar 2011, 8:44 am

Dont let the bastards and b*****s steal your mojo, they are dust in the wind.

Even within a group setting and personal position... let yourself fall

Nothing in life is worth being or doing...

And contagion is real

Just look at this thread



CaptainTrips222
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30 Mar 2011, 10:48 am

daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
daspie wrote:
bee33 wrote:
daspie wrote:
Then how do you prevent such behavior in future?

You don't prevent it by taking revenge. You learn to recognize bad situations and extricate yourself from them before they turn bad. Or use your new information to become more diplomatic.

If I am in a group and someone does bad to me and if I don't reply then my social standard/status will be lowered. By taking revenge I did not mean outright war, what I meant was that you at least protest or give an indirect message that you are not to be taken for granted.


That's not revenge. That's having a spine.

These are minor forms of revenges.


You're right. Who are we kidding. Standing up for yourself/asserting yourself/revenge. It's all the same thing when you think about it.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Mar 2011, 12:47 pm

daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

That's not revenge. That's having a spine.

These are minor forms of revenges.


Not really. Revenge is all about getting back at someone, whereas the other is about making sure nobody walks all over you.

Some do take the latter so far that it crosses into revenge, but they are by no means the same thing.

Well these are just differences in statement.


How?

By revenge I meant that if someone harms you then you do the same. Harm can be a social harm i.e. by insulting someone, it can be stealing someone's "resources". Since we are not good at language(see my signatures) and theory of mind,to find out appropriate revenge ToM is required as people avenge in the same manner as in which they were wronged. For e.g. if you found out a doctor's clinic from internet and he then advices you a therapy which is costly. Now, you wanna check its efficacy by reading its review on the internet and while leaving you asked again"What was the name that you told?" A smart person would not ask in that manner because by doing that you are isolating the question and thereby being direct about your intention. Doctor, if he knows that your are not socially smart, might say to other junior doctor sitting besides"Ya.....he going to check it on the net"
A befitting reply would be"That is very place where I found your address in the first place". But since our brain does not think on that higher level we are not able to think that reply out at least in the real time. This is why we are left with frustration. I have a theory on asperger's syndrome which I am developing further and would like to work it on with Dr. simon baron-cohen.


You don't need to insult someone to stand up for yourself. I know, because I've done it.

Insulting someone crosses over into the realm of revenge.


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Zen
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30 Mar 2011, 12:59 pm

Your examples do not seem like revenge to me, but then you describe insulting people or plotting what to do to get back at them. I'm confused. :lol:
If you delay your response and use something indirect, how would they know it was related to the wrong they did to you? It might just make you look like a nut case.



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30 Mar 2011, 1:08 pm

I have a habit of not forgiving people for things, I do forget them though if I like that person or don't know them. Yet whatever that person did or said is still at the back of my mind and I don't care if they're remorseful or not. It takes forever for me to forgive them properly.

I have held grudges, like some of the people I knew at school that bullied me who I haven't seen for years, if I saw them get run over today I'd think "revenge at last". Even though they don't see me any more and so can't hurt me, I have not forgotten or forgiven them and my hatred is still as strong as it was 4 or so years ago.


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30 Mar 2011, 1:09 pm

I forgive a lot more easily than I give myself credit for.


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30 Mar 2011, 1:19 pm

I forgive people very easily. It has come to my mind and heart through the years that people who have cause distress in my life have given my mind an alternate look at life. Some have harmed me in ways that I was unconsciously harming others, some are just mean because they choose the pass the ugliness that someone else passed on to them...if I was guilty of the same crime...after very close analysis of the 'harm' ~ I stopped doing it. Each 'harm' that has been done to me that I have looked at in this way has never repeated its self more then one other time (my guess is to make certain I got the point).

I find life is a school. Kindergarten is where most NT and others live. If you think about it, Kindergarten is where we all should have learned to play nice. Share. Be respectful. Learn how to agree to disagree. Then graduate on the first grade ~ learn how to learn.

I would say I choose to move on and learn. Yeah the Kindergartners are still in the playground and can be annoying at times. But why play with them when you have the older kids to associate with...so many 'real' things to discover...why waste time with the little ones...they don't know what it is they do, for if they did...they wouldn't still be in Kindergarten.



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30 Mar 2011, 1:26 pm

Zen wrote:
Your examples do not seem like revenge to me, but then you describe insulting people or plotting what to do to get back at them. I'm confused. :lol:

My example of "conversation at doctor's clinic" shows what one needs to have to be able to take a "verbal revenge". Revenge need not be a physical fight. If someone says something demeaning to you and if you do not reply back then that sets precedence for others. Then if you go beyond your new limits then people will get back fiercely at you.
Quote:
If you delay your response and use something indirect, how would they know it was related to the wrong they did to you? It might just make you look like a nut case.

Neurotypical will understand that in a moment. They have a very strong emotional memory, I guess because of mature, functional, amygdala unlike us. They will surely know that the reason why we are behaving like that is because they behaved like that in the first place. In fact they would already by expecting that kind of behaviour. In fact my theory says, which in first place was constructed by observing such behaviours, that they will understand the state of mind behind our revenge and match that with their state of mind(the one they had during their misbehavior) and they will understand that this response ours is a response to their previous action.
I have a rule of thumb to understand whether NTs have understood or not-
If I have understood something then surely NTs would also have!



daspie
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30 Mar 2011, 1:31 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
daspie wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

That's not revenge. That's having a spine.

These are minor forms of revenges.


Not really. Revenge is all about getting back at someone, whereas the other is about making sure nobody walks all over you.

Some do take the latter so far that it crosses into revenge, but they are by no means the same thing.

Well these are just differences in statement.


How?

By revenge I meant that if someone harms you then you do the same. Harm can be a social harm i.e. by insulting someone, it can be stealing someone's "resources". Since we are not good at language(see my signatures) and theory of mind,to find out appropriate revenge ToM is required as people avenge in the same manner as in which they were wronged. For e.g. if you found out a doctor's clinic from internet and he then advices you a therapy which is costly. Now, you wanna check its efficacy by reading its review on the internet and while leaving you asked again"What was the name that you told?" A smart person would not ask in that manner because by doing that you are isolating the question and thereby being direct about your intention. Doctor, if he knows that your are not socially smart, might say to other junior doctor sitting besides"Ya.....he going to check it on the net"
A befitting reply would be"That is very place where I found your address in the first place". But since our brain does not think on that higher level we are not able to think that reply out at least in the real time. This is why we are left with frustration. I have a theory on asperger's syndrome which I am developing further and would like to work it on with Dr. simon baron-cohen.


You don't need to insult someone to stand up for yourself. I know, because I've done it.

Insulting someone crosses over into the realm of revenge.

If some insults you then you need to and by the same means.



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30 Mar 2011, 1:37 pm

then who stops the cycle?

also I know for a fact that some NT's use it as a form of defense. It is fear based. Fear is not best taught with fear. It leaves no alternative but to repeat the previous action