Is there any research on ASD with ADHD

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Exactly this. It's kind of funny that I've run into dogma in ADHD circles that hyperfocus only happens for things you shouldn't be doing, but of course it can happen on anything you can handle doing.



Yeah, I was reading something that indicated that in ADHDers, bloodflow to the prefrontal cortex actually reduces when trying to focus on uninteresting things, causing a kind of cognitive shutdown.



The only thing I can think of that - for me - is opposite between ADHD and autism is autistic inertia/hyperfocus versus ADHD distractibility. When I take my medication, the distractibility is gone and I can get stuck doing anything, not just things that specifically interest me.

What else is contrary between the two conditions?

Well, hopefully if I manage to keep up the blogging (kind of at a bit of a stall right now, I'll have some stuff there pretty soon about just that. Most of it just my personal perspective, but things that seem to have appeared to me like sudden moments of clarity.

I'm looking forward to it. I haven't really formed many thoughts on this because I tend to think in terms of just ADHD or just autism and I haven't had a lot of luck integrating them with each other (or both with fibromyalgia), and I think this combination is one of the reasons everything is such a pain for me.

We focus on what we care about and what takes the less physical and mental usage, and something that we can be suddenly rewarded from.

Yea, Ritalin is a god send. I can actually sit in lectures and concentrate the entire time, i can actually follow what is going on. I've also spent the last year learning a lot about myself, how i learn and why i struggle learning from lectures etc.

My Mum has both ADHD and Aspergers. When she takes Ritalin, her Aspie issues are more obvious although still very subtle, When she hasn't taken it she's very impulsive etc and the ADHD is more dominant. Slowly i started to think that perhaps she didnt have AS (because she can hide these issues so amazingly well) and just ADHD and that maybe they were both extremely alike although with a few differences. A while on though, i discovered she definitely does have the two conditions. Her socialising and analysing are very much AS. I can analyse and pick up on small details, i can sit back and observe people, but not to the extent she does and many AS people I have met can.

Between her, myself, my brother(Aspergers) and the children with ASD/ADHD i work with i can think of quite a few differences. I'll use Aspergers as the main compariative.

Please note these are generalisations and i'm not saying in the following that ALL adhd act like X and Aspie's act like Y.

Childhood
- Childhood behaviours are EXTREMELY different. Aspergers seems to be more academically intellectual from a young age, whereas ADHD have a phenominal way of working people out and using it to see attention. (no offence ADHDers, this is just what i have noticed working with children).
- ADHD will go out of there way to be noticed, seek attention (on their terms though) whereas Aspergers need a lot of encouragement to come out of their shell.
- Those with ADHD don't seem to have problems with 'Theory of Mind' although I have met one or two whom have, but it's rare in my experience.
- Way of thinking is very different. Aspie's are extremely logical thinking, it's hard for example to enguage them in imaginative play. ADHD however is extremely easy, their imagination and creativity is bloody amazing. Please note, i'm not saying AS people have no imagination because I don't believe that. It's just the two conditions have a different imagination.
- ADHD = overconfident. Aspie children are generally much quieter.
- Aspie's can be much harder to encourage positive thinking because they are so logical.
- Play is very different. Aspie's tend to interact with objects, ADHD tend to love interacting with people with things such as 'rough and tumble play'. It's hard to get someone with either condition to do the vice versa.

Working with the two seperate conditions requires a lot of hard work in very different ways. I do feel they over-lap but it's so hard to see where etc because everyone is so different. I still cannot work out some kind of universal way to identify everything. Imo, I think they should just identify the main categories of ADHD - Impulsitivity, Attention, Hyperactivity (i think?) and put them with the main categories of difficulties for ASD and let everyone be on a sliding scale in each seperate category.

General
- I don't have problems with eye contact.
- I don't have social anxiety except on rare occassions but i think no more than a neurotypical.
- I'm extremely untidy, late for appointments, missing half the things i need for the day in contrast to those with Aspergers I know whom are always dead on time for appointments, their room in unaturally tidy etc.
- Im not very repetative at all. I like to do things different. Infact if i don't again i get this feeling that my very soul is crushing. I can deal with repetative jobs which is why I work with kids with ASD, disabilities and special needs. I get to do something different every day, and learn something new every day.
- I'm good with animals, but i don't have that telepathic ability both my Mum and Brother and others with Aspergers have. And by telepathic, i really mean it.
- I can move on very quickly from a given situation if something bad happens. AS from experience will really dwell and over analyse such situations which makes things very hard.
- Don't have the self-discipline Aspies have.
- Very sporty, love sports and naturally good at it. Don't have dyspraxia that's common with ASD.
- When i speak to people i'm not analysing body language, tone, facial expressions etc. It's all quite natural to me although more than a neurotypical I can take language literally and i can do inappropriate things although it may be due to not thinking before i act.
- I very much run on emotions and what i feel like i'm doing at that moment. If i fancy doing work, i'll work. If i don't i'll procrastinate until the sun comes up. Whereas it seems Apie's will put logic before anything else.
- Love spontaneous things, infact i'm better at spontaneous things than anything else. Aspie's struggle with Spontaneous.
- Quite a big one - I see things in pictures, many people with ADHD see things in pictures. Apparently AS do not.

I could name lots more but I think i've written too much all ready .

Redacted for now. I need to think this over more.

Thank you for writing all of that out.

Thanks =). If you come to any conlusions, theories etc of how it all works, please let me know =), it's been something our family generally rack our brains over because of my Mother having both.

Wow, what a goldmine. Thanks!

That's exactly how I feel (I'm PDD NOS and not ADHD). The difference is that I'm never paying attention to 'anything and everything' when I'm not interested in what I want to pay attention to. Instead, I switch into thinking about my intense interest or pick one thing in my environment and focus on it.

For example, cleaning is extremely difficult for me because it involves shifting attention so much, and usually I end up noticing a book I want to read and getting sucked into reading it.



I think you're comparing stereotypes there.

I've worked with HFA/AS kids, and with ADHD kids (though only combined type). Here's what I've seen:

* ADHD kids are the ones who always seem to be doing something, and can't sit still unless they're fiddling with something. And if you're watching them play, every five seconds they'll switch to something else. Only TV or video games can hold their attention very long, and even then they'll often be the ones who roll around on the floor and wrestle while watching TV. (And still follow the plot!) But they can be shy - I know an ADHD kid who for the first week he was in our summer program, he wouldn't interact with anyone the first five minutes or so. Instead, he'd sit in a corner and seem like he was going to stay there, but a moment later you'd look back and he was gone. Or he'd go and crawl underneath the stacked-up chairs or find some other hiding spot and explore in there.

* Autistic kids can look very varied. There are the kind you described above, but they're somewhat uncommon. The majority are kids who move oddly, get confused when everyone else understands the situation, and have different likes and dislikes than most kids. In the right setting, they can look very similar to ADHD even if they don't have ADHD - for example, I was a shadow in the gym supposed to go and help any kid who seemed to need help, and I spotted one of the autistic kids because he was the one doing something different from what the kids had just been told to do (he hadn't understood the directions). ADHD kids also are often the ones doing something different, because they got distracted. Actually, the stereotypical AS profile seems more common in teens than younger children.



In that way I'm more like ADHD. I suspect I have Newson Syndrome, which is an autism spectrum condition characterized by phobia of commands and obsessive pretend play. I have always been a very imaginative person, and was still playing pretend regularly around 14-15 years old (I've pretty much completely replaced it with fiction writing now, because I don't want to just forget my awesome stories).

And my thought patterns are very similar to most ADHD people. I call myself a 'tangential thinker' because I very easily go off on tangents and end up talking about something completely different. Pretty much every time I've heard an ADHD person describe how they think, they're a tangential thinker too.

My own perspective on AS is that it is a conglamoration of a number of different traits, some add, some ocd, some torrets, some all thier own (ie sensory, and social difficulties) We have varing levels of these traits and present some more than others, hence some of us have more ADD sx others more OCD, others more sensory, ect. what makes it confusing for others to differentiate is that they can look very similar in how they are presented to the dx's that they are related.

as an example,
when I was about 7 i can remember correcting the minister during his childrens sermon, he had used the word cobbler for a shoe maker, and I felt oblidged to correct his error and point out that a shoemaker would be offended by that term as it really means a shoddy craftsmen.
is that being impulsive, or an erronious belife that everyone else in the world is as concerned with acuracy as I was.

Fascinating insights, thanks for sharing.

I think a lot of these are stereotypes as Ettina said - although true for some people.

I think another aspect is, you're looking at ADHD children who are not impaired in particular ways (socially, especially) the way autistic children are. This isn't a matter of opposites so much as a matter of ADHDers without an ASD don't have those impairments, but ADHD doesn't benefit those traits either, it just impacts how they are expressed due to a lack of self-regulation. Similar goes for autistic people who are extremely organized and ADHDers who find organization extremely difficult. I don't think autism leads to superior ability to organize, I think the organization is a coping mechanism for many. I also know many ADHDers also develop extreme organizational habits and skills to cope with ADHD.

Behaviorally it may look like a marked contrast, but neurologically, they don't impact quite the same things. Someone who has ADHD and autism is still dealing with all of the challenges that ADHD brings, but also has autism to contend with.

For one example: You talk about ADHD children being attention-seeking. I don't know that "attention-seeking" is an accurate description. I know many ADHDers who have been characterized as attention seeking because of their unregulated behavior, but I suspect a need for attention was not a primary motivating factor (beyond attention being stimulating and ADHDers typically seek stimulation).

Another example is how ADHDers focus on other people while autistic people focus on objects - this is a matter of ADHDers not having anything that would change how they focus. NTs also focus more on people than objects as a general rule, so ADHDers don't really differ from NTs in this, only in how they express it. Autistic people tend to focus on objects, so even an autistic person with ADHD will tend to focus on objects.

Thanks to my daughter dx, I strongly suspect that I share her AS and ADD.

I had/have obsessive interests my whole life. I would read entire books in a single night. I don't know about you but I keep notes for myself. I'd make lists and never finish them. I'd design gardens and start them, and never finish them. I would sketch the same subjects over and over and never complete the artwork to a finished state. I started writing stories, kept diaries and notebooks full of details and never finish writing them. The interest in these things never waned - but my ability to maintain my focus long enough to complete anything longer than a single day project is extremely limited to none existant. I still think on these things obssessively - but putting my interests into actions has always been a huge challenge.

Last year I finally got around to painting my kitchen - about 15 years overdue. I had to strip wallpaper before painting. I only completed three walls before I lost my motivation.

When it comes to projects for work - or for school - I was KNOWN for completing complex projects on the spur of the moment, Entire term papers in a single night. Art projects during and all nighter. If I tried to pace myself over the course of a week - or god forbid over several weeks - I couldn't maintain my focus to complete it. Forcing myself into waiting for the last minute pressure to ensure I'd complete a project was essential. It was my coping technique in order to succeed.

Even now - I easily have 20 creative projects started and I doubt I'll ever complete any of them. I'm my own worse enemy and all the will power in the world does not help me in the least.

Yes =). I did state in a previous post in this topic i know ADHDers with amazing organisation skills. I'm unfortunately not one of them!

I am of course generalising =), but it's hard to analyse without some generalisations as everyone is so so different. I always feel bad for generlising but it's hard to pass information without doing so.



I don't mean attention seeking in a negative way or anything. The kid i'm working with Atm, pure ADHD constantly needs attention, if he sees me talking to someone else he can get angry or gets angry at them. I try to reinforce positive attention constantly, but if i stop he quickly will do things such as spitting, slapping peoples bottoms as we walk past etc!

Most of his negative behaviours seem to come from boredom, even walking down the road.

He needs to be constantly mentally stimulated as we walk down the road - To do this i play games with him, jumping over the cracks in the pavement and other things. This stops him spitting (which he will do constantly and then look at you for your reaction. You tell him not to and he will do it again. You tell him we'll take him home and he quickly says 'I BE GOOD BOY'. 2 minutes later, he's doing it again.)

With this boy (5 years old) we've tried for example bringing a football to play with him and other things but he's just not interested. He'll take it and run away because he likes to be chased =). If you don't chase him, he might try and slap a member of the public so you have to come and deal with it lol.

So yeah, it's mostly playing tag and rough and tumble play with him . Awesome kid though.

Yes yes =), i've stated a few times in the post that it was generalisations =). It's hard for me to pass information without being a little bit general, but my posts are what i've 'generally' seen so it's hard not to be! I understand EVERYONE is different and will buck the trends (aka, very organised ADHDers or social Aspergers).


Sounds about right =). I always work on a 1-1 basis with children however so it's much easier for me to analyse one child. The one i'm working with at the moment(as a respite carer) with ADHD HATES other children!! I've worked with others that took an hour or two to draw out of their shells and get them running around and playing tag with me etc. That's the good thing with my job =), i get to deal with just one child so i can really get to know them.

And because i have ADHD I can't stick following a child around and just 'watching them'. So i seem to have an ability to draw them out, else i get bored. Even with the low functioning children whom can only say single words where i've heard people say (and i get bloody pissed off at this) 'he's boring, he doesn't interact', i've managed to get them speaking to me and managed interaction with them, piggy backs, counting, asking them options of what they want to do.

I realise i've just span off here randomly lol, sorry. And i think i'm sounding cocky here which i didn't mean to do. I love all opinions and information. I want to learn everything to be the best at caring possible =). Every single child i work with i learn something new, something about them will prove 'stereotypes' wrong, and i love it!

I'll call the child i'm working with atm 'D'. D is only 5 years old but amazingly intelligent. He can't sit still long enough to lean anything academic - but his knowledge on people is astounding. If one thing doesnt work (say he keeps trying to run off but we walk the other way so he runs back to us), he'll try something else so we HAVE to go to him -,-. Like slapping a member of the public, or threatening to jump into a lake when he can't swim(not verbally threatening, i mean running for the lake lol). He's very versitile, he tries to have one person vs the other, kinda like teenagers can ask Mum and if Mum says no, they'll ask dad. He does so many things well above his age. Aspergers do as well, but in a very different way (generally).

So in the above case, this is an example of where I feel Aspergers and ADHD may differ. Aspergers are very analytical of people, learning behaviours etc but seems like their knowledge, is used in a different way.

I'd love to reply to the rest of your post and hopefully shall tomorrow - need to sleep now though!

Thankyou for your reply though !

Also, sorry anyone if anything i've said offends anyone etc. Not my intentions and i just want to learn from people and aquire information etc . Don't have time to go through my post and check my wording is correct!

I have very unevenly applied organizational skills. With some things, everything is perfect. With other things, everything falls apart. The other fun thing is that if I get myself organized in one household, when I move I have to start over from ground zero - not just organizing, but everything.



Right, this sounds a lot like stimulation-seeking behavior, and attention is stimulation for him.

I didn't mean to imply positive or negative, although a lot of people do seem to view "attention-seeking" as always negative and often pathological. I've been characterized as attention-seeking in fairly negative ways because of peculiar and bizarre interpretations of things I've said - especially apologizing for screwing up socially.