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Adult Aspies are socially 11 years old?

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Verdandi
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05 Nov 2011, 6:54 pm

swbluto wrote:
Well, the major difference between someone whose 42 years old and 11 years old is a difference in experiences, so I think there'd be some fundamental "social perceptiveness" that goes beyond experience. I'm not going to say that understanding would be *exactly* the same, as experience has a lot to do with understanding, but I'm guessing the "nuance", "subtlety" or "complexity" of your understanding would err towards the level of an 11 year old.


I think maybe that I was not clear enough in explaining my point, which was that I don't think autistic social perceptions can be directly mapped to NT ages, and certainly not straight across the board like you seem to be saying in this thread.



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05 Nov 2011, 7:04 pm

Verdandi wrote:
swbluto wrote:
Well, the major difference between someone whose 42 years old and 11 years old is a difference in experiences, so I think there'd be some fundamental "social perceptiveness" that goes beyond experience. I'm not going to say that understanding would be *exactly* the same, as experience has a lot to do with understanding, but I'm guessing the "nuance", "subtlety" or "complexity" of your understanding would err towards the level of an 11 year old.


I think maybe that I was not clear enough in explaining my point, which was that I don't think autistic social perceptions can be directly mapped to NT ages, and certainly not straight across the board like you seem to be saying in this thread.


I got your point and I agree that "social perceptions" can't be "directly mapped" (There are multiple areas that are involved in social perceptions such as experience, language ability/awareness, emotional recognition, etc.). Now, I'm questioning whether you got mine -- that, yes, there's *something* that probably can be directly mapped to NT ages, and I'm guessing that something is something like "complexity" or some element of "social awareness" or "social comprehension". It might not be easily measured in adults but there's probably something that's directly associated with the type of "ToM ability" that's measured by the Sally-Anne test, whether that be "social imagination" or "social working memory" or something else. It's clear that cognitive deficits related to social thinking don't disappear in aspie adults, so there is *something*.

And, the term "social working memory" isn't an official term, it's my own neologism that extends "working memory" to social thinking. Working memory is about the amount of items that one can hold at the same time in your mind so, analogously, social working memory would be about the amount of "social items" that one could simultaneously hold in ones mind (Whether those "social items" be people, thoughts, beliefs, knowledge, intents, etc.).



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05 Nov 2011, 7:25 pm

swbluto wrote:
I got your point and I agree that "social perceptions" can't be "directly mapped" (There are multiple areas that are involved in social perceptions such as experience, language ability/awareness, emotional recognition, etc.). Now, I'm questioning whether you got mine -- that, yes, there's *something* that probably can be directly mapped to NT ages, and I'm guessing that something is something like "complexity" or some element of "social awareness" or "social comprehension". It might not be easily measured in adults but there's probably something that's directly associated with the type of "ToM ability" that's measured by the Sally-Anne test, whether that be "social imagination" or "social working memory" or something else. It's clear that cognitive deficits related to social thinking don't disappear in aspie adults, so there is *something*.


Something to consider is that some ASD 5 year olds do work out the Sally Test. And some ASD adults cannot work it out even at 50.

It shows something on average, but generally why can't the ToM be bridged and crossover into another perspective? From the accounts on the board, it looks like it is 'hidden,' or a subconscious urge to not see the others' perspective... to answer it "wrong." But intellectually know it's the other way--- thus to be torn between the two choices. Whatever it is, it comes from behind the scenes, thus not arising from an intellectual confusion.

It may be a reverse in something neuronal, like a dyslexia.



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05 Nov 2011, 7:39 pm

Mdyar wrote:
swbluto wrote:
I got your point and I agree that "social perceptions" can't be "directly mapped" (There are multiple areas that are involved in social perceptions such as experience, language ability/awareness, emotional recognition, etc.). Now, I'm questioning whether you got mine -- that, yes, there's *something* that probably can be directly mapped to NT ages, and I'm guessing that something is something like "complexity" or some element of "social awareness" or "social comprehension". It might not be easily measured in adults but there's probably something that's directly associated with the type of "ToM ability" that's measured by the Sally-Anne test, whether that be "social imagination" or "social working memory" or something else. It's clear that cognitive deficits related to social thinking don't disappear in aspie adults, so there is *something*.


Something to consider is that some ASD 5 year olds do work out the Sally Test. And some ASD adults cannot work it out even at 50.


Well, yeah, it's not like ToM deficits are the only symptom in ASDs but it is a central one to most ASD individuals. The forum users with a better ToM are probably the ASD individuals who "do better" on the forums, on average.


Quote:
It shows something on average, but generally why can't the ToM be bridged and crossover into another perspective? From the accounts on the board, it looks like it is 'hidden,' or a subconscious urge to not see the others' perspective... to answer it "wrong." But intellectually know it's the other way--- thus to be torn between the two choices. Whatever it is, it comes from behind the scenes, thus not arising from an intellectual confusion.

It may be a reverse in something neuronal, like a dyslexia.


Wait, so you're saying that aspies who do get the Sally-Anne wrong at a young age is not because they don't know any better, it just can't "express itself"? Well, even if that's the case, the only thing that people see is the expression, so it's still just as debilitating.



Last edited by swbluto on 05 Nov 2011, 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Verdandi
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05 Nov 2011, 7:46 pm

swbluto wrote:
I got your point and I agree that "social perceptions" can't be "directly mapped" (There are multiple areas that are involved in social perceptions such as experience, language ability/awareness, emotional recognition, etc.). Now, I'm questioning whether you got mine -- that, yes, there's *something* that probably can be directly mapped to NT ages, and I'm guessing that something is something like "complexity" or some element of "social awareness" or "social comprehension". It might not be easily measured in adults but there's probably something that's directly associated with the type of "ToM ability" that's measured by the Sally-Anne test, whether that be "social imagination" or "social working memory" or something else. It's clear that cognitive deficits related to social thinking don't disappear in aspie adults, so there is *something*.


I got your point. I don't agree with your point. I don't think that autistic brains generally stop developing any more than NT brains do. Constantly carving off the pieces that don't fit in the hopes of ending up with a single pristine piece that will fit your theory strikes me as confirmation bias.

I don't think any part can be mapped to NT ages. You're not looking at people who simply have cognitive delays in certain areas but different cognitive development. Trying to use NT ages to explain it is reductive and pointless.



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05 Nov 2011, 7:53 pm

Mdyar wrote:
It shows something on average, but generally why can't the ToM be bridged and crossover into another perspective? From the accounts on the board, it looks like it is 'hidden,' or a subconscious urge to not see the others' perspective... to answer it "wrong." But intellectually know it's the other way--- thus to be torn between the two choices. Whatever it is, it comes from behind the scenes, thus not arising from an intellectual confusion.


I never got the impression that people here are describing a hidden or subconscious urge to not see others' perspectives. I also don't think the people who answer it wrong do so necessarily "intellectually" knowing it's wrong. Usually when I get something wrong that I intellectually know otherwise, it's because I didn't have access to or remember the intellectual aspect. Being in the moment is not like thinking about and discussing it later.

I also linked an article on this topic on another thread that discusses the flaws of using extremely complex language to test social perceptions on people who typically have communication and language difficulties, which may have a more comprehensive explanation as to why so many autistic people fail the said test, or other tests like it.



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05 Nov 2011, 7:54 pm

Joe90 wrote:
I must admit, it is easier being a child than an adult - and most people I know say that. I didn't fear rejection when I was a child, and you don't need to follow so many rules, and it doesn't matter if you say stupid things because all children say stupid things (I used to like watching the programme ''Children Say The Funniest Things''). And you're allowed to be shy and untalkative too. Say if you went to a party, you have an excuse to have your mum by your side, and you don't have to talk to anyone if you don't want to, and nobody thinks you're unfriendly or untalkative. But me, I have to make conversation, and if I don't say anything people keep asking why I'm not talking, which gets me mad.

But now I would prefer to stand around chatting at a party than to run around and play. I don't like running around playing any more (I have matured in that way). But if only I wasn't so ''scared'' of speaking up in social situations with people I don't really know.....*sigh*


I don't have the energy to run around playing but I still prefer doing things as opposed to chatting at a party. Small talk is so dull it makes me want to drill a hole through my brain. I like kids. Kids don't do small talk. They just walk right up to you and tell you what's on their mind. You can't do that as an adult. You have to go through a bunch of tiring social rituals. Adults mostly hold back their true thoughts. Even if each of two people know exactly what the other is thinking they don't say it.

I know what you mean though about being afraid to speak up. A lot of people just make me uncomfortable for some reason. I feel like I'm afraid because I don't trust them. If I don't know what someone is thinking it bothers the heck out of me and I just clam up. I never noticed the phenomenon of "awkward silence" as a kid. It seems like a phenomenon that developes in the teenage years. With groups of adults it always feels like there's this unnecessary pressure to "perform". You have to be able to verbally tell a story and make people laugh or they pretend you don't exist. If you don't have the ability to fill the air with entertaining chatter you're screwed socially speaking.

I really don't think it's ToM that's my problem. It's the fact that I lack the adult "gift of gab". I can't spontaneously think of the right things to say. My mind tends to be cluttered and my thoughts often drift several associative strides ahead of the conversation that's immediately at hand. After a while if nothing interests my I just sort of give up and go into my own space, after which I no longer exist.



Last edited by marshall on 05 Nov 2011, 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

swbluto
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05 Nov 2011, 7:56 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I don't think any part can be mapped to NT ages. You're not looking at people who simply have cognitive delays in certain areas but different cognitive development. Trying to use NT ages to explain it is reductive and pointless.


Well, the "total package" will certainly be different in a way that suggests a "different cognitive development", but that doesn't mean that parts of it that constitute that cognitive development aren't delayed. A person can have a "language ability" that's at a mental age that's half of his peers and then grow up and STILL have a "language ability" that's at a mental age that's half of his peers, but yet the overall intellectual development will be "different" because of these underlying differences (Language ability underlies all types of intellectual abilities.).

Essentially, our main disagreement comes from the fact I'm more reductionist whereas you're more holistic about personality and that's more of a philosophical difference than a scientific one.



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05 Nov 2011, 8:00 pm

swbluto wrote:
Well, the "total package" will certainly be different in a way that suggests a "different cognitive development", but that doesn't mean that parts of it that constitute that cognitive development aren't delayed. A person can have a "language ability" that's at a mental age that's half of his peers and then grow up and STILL have a "language ability" that's at a mental age that's half of his peers, but yet the overall intellectual development will be "different" because of these underlying differences (Language ability underlies all types of intellectual abilities.).

Essentially, our main disagreement comes from the fact I'm more reductionist whereas you're more holistic about personality and that's more of a philosophical difference more than a scientific one.


No, I find "mental age" to be an utterly useless metric. It can mean whatever you want it to mean, and doesn't say anything useful at all about any particular autistic's cognitive abilities. If you want to describe cognitive limitations, feel free, but shorthand like "has the social age of an 11-year old" or "language ability that's half his age" are practically meaningless.

You're trying to fit autistic cognition into a model of NT cognitive development. It would perhaps be better to work out actual models of autistic cognition rather than relate it to brains that don't work like autistic brains.



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05 Nov 2011, 8:09 pm

Verdandi wrote:
swbluto wrote:
Well, the "total package" will certainly be different in a way that suggests a "different cognitive development", but that doesn't mean that parts of it that constitute that cognitive development aren't delayed. A person can have a "language ability" that's at a mental age that's half of his peers and then grow up and STILL have a "language ability" that's at a mental age that's half of his peers, but yet the overall intellectual development will be "different" because of these underlying differences (Language ability underlies all types of intellectual abilities.).

Essentially, our main disagreement comes from the fact I'm more reductionist whereas you're more holistic about personality and that's more of a philosophical difference more than a scientific one.


No, I find "mental age" to be an utterly useless metric. It can mean whatever you want it to mean, and doesn't say anything useful at all about any particular autistic's cognitive abilities. If you want to describe cognitive limitations, feel free, but shorthand like "has the social age of an 11-year old" or "language ability that's half his age" are practically meaningless.

You're trying to fit autistic cognition into a model of NT cognitive development. It would perhaps be better to work out actual models of autistic cognition rather than relate it to brains that don't work like autistic brains.


Well, parts of autistic cognition ARE a diminished form of NT cognitive development, so it seems perfectly fine to 'describe cognitive limitations' by relating them to a mental age (Such as, "Has the ToM mental ability of an 11 year old."). Yes, there are many parts to autistic cognition that are "different", but there are fairly crucial ones that are more a matter of quantity than quality.



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05 Nov 2011, 8:28 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I also linked an article on this topic on another thread that discusses the flaws of using extremely complex language to test social perceptions on people who typically have communication and language difficulties, which may have a more comprehensive explanation as to why so many autistic people fail the said test, or other tests like it.


The Sally-Anne test definitely doesn't use "complex language" or language that's beyond most autistic kid's abilities.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjkTQtggLH4[/youtube]

And, higher order tasks developed by Baron Cohen are not exactly linguistically "complex", and I'm pretty sure that linguistic ability was measured and controlled by researchers conducting the investigations to rule out the affect of "communication and language difficulties".



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05 Nov 2011, 8:33 pm

swbluto wrote:
Well, parts of autistic cognition ARE a diminished form of NT cognitive development, so it seems perfectly fine to 'describe cognitive limitations' by relating them to a mental age (Such as, "Has the ToM mental ability of an 11 year old."). Yes, there are many parts to autistic cognition that are "different", but there are fairly crucial ones that are more a matter of quantity than quality.


Autistic brains tend to have many shorter connections as compared to NTs who tend to have fewer, longer connections. This impacts autistic cognition in multiple ways, but it doesn't give you anything like "the ToM mental ability of an 11 year old." No one even knows where "ToM" is located in the brain, or how to properly describe how it works. In research that doesn't involve autistic people, the fact that many people are often wrong about what other people are thinking gets a lot of discussion (for example, the concept of "fundamental attribution error" - a favorite pastime among just about everyone that never seems to get mentioned when discussing autistic theory of mind).



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05 Nov 2011, 8:36 pm

If what this study said is true......wouldn't adults with AS socialize better with 11 year olds than other adults or people in their late teens? I don't know about anyone else but I doubt I would have much in common with an 11 year old socially or otherwise. That could just be me of course though.

But yeah also I will admit I sometimes tend to get along better with people a little younger, or quite a bit older then my specific age group......and I would say most adults probably don't dress like me I admit they way I dress a lot of the time would be more common with younger people.



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05 Nov 2011, 8:39 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
If what this study said is true......wouldn't adults with AS socialize better with 11 year olds than other adults or people in their late teens? I don't know about anyone else but I doubt I would have much in common with an 11 year old socially or otherwise. That could just be me of course though.


Actually, I get along perfectly with semi-autistic guys in their late teens. I just don't see those kind of people at college everyday, though.

When you get to the "11 year old" range, a difference in language ability becomes an issue as well as a difference in life experiences and background.



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05 Nov 2011, 8:45 pm

swbluto wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
If what this study said is true......wouldn't adults with AS socialize better with 11 year olds than other adults or people in their late teens? I don't know about anyone else but I doubt I would have much in common with an 11 year old socially or otherwise. That could just be me of course though.


Actually, I get along perfectly with semi-autistic guys in their late teens. I just don't see those kind of people at college everyday, though.

When you get to the "11 year old" range, a difference in language ability becomes an issue as well as a difference in life experiences and background.


well yeah thats why I find this kind of confusing....I mean in which way does the average adult with AS behave like an 11 year old socially? maybe I could find some info on this and see if they go into detail about that. I do tend to feel younger then my actual age but not to that extent...so it probably varies.



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05 Nov 2011, 8:46 pm

Verdandi wrote:
swbluto wrote:
Well, parts of autistic cognition ARE a diminished form of NT cognitive development, so it seems perfectly fine to 'describe cognitive limitations' by relating them to a mental age (Such as, "Has the ToM mental ability of an 11 year old."). Yes, there are many parts to autistic cognition that are "different", but there are fairly crucial ones that are more a matter of quantity than quality.


Autistic brains tend to have many shorter connections as compared to NTs who tend to have fewer, longer connections. This impacts autistic cognition in multiple ways, but it doesn't give you anything like "the ToM mental ability of an 11 year old." No one even knows where "ToM" is located in the brain, or how to properly describe how it works.


A proper description will come in due time but, it might turn out to be too advanced/complex for humans' puny brains. :lol:

But, when it does come out, rest assured that it will be possible to map it to NT cognitive development.

Quote:
In research that doesn't involve autistic people, the fact that many people are often wrong about what other people are thinking gets a lot of discussion (for example, the concept of "fundamental attribution error" - a favorite pastime among just about everyone that never seems to get mentioned when discussing autistic theory of mind).


Oh, well, that's different. That's less a matter of "capability" unlike with autism.



Last edited by swbluto on 05 Nov 2011, 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.