Who has aspergers/autism here, who are good/bad at maths?

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Ok, I understand. Maybe I should've taken trig or calculus.





Yes, you understood me correctly. Honestly, I tried to construct my own mathematical ontology to understand society and social situations. It doesn't work though because it leads to inconsistencies and contradictions. I do understand set theory I believe. I've always heard this statement "you're entitled to nothing. I looked up the word entitle and it means to Give (someone) a legal right or a just claim to receive or do something. This is where I become confused as well. If I am truly entitled to nothing then why can't I logically derive that I am not entitled to commit murder and refuse to commit murder at the same time.

Let's say we have the set of entitlements e with subsets receive r and do d. In the subset d we have two members of the subset called commit murder and another member called refuse to commit murder. By this logic since I can't legally have a right to commit murder and refuse to commit murder at the same time.

They became mean or ignored you because they themselves have only a limited grasp of mathematical concepts and try to hide their ignorance from their pupils. Mathematics is by far the worst taught subject in schools in most of the world.

Multiply anything by nothing, and youll get nothing.
Thats just common sense.

How can anyone be "confused" by that concept?

As Volitaire says Common sense is not so common and as Albert Einstein says Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.

If common sense is truly not that common like volitaire says then how is it truly reliable and why is it considered reliable in every single situational case that could possibly crop up? People's five senses can be fooled so how is common sense truly always reliable to obtain truth? For the most part I'm always told to use common sense but I do not see it as a reliable tool as most people think it is. Why do people put such stock and nobility to common sense?

Did you look at my posts before you posted and see my logic? I explained why that statement did not make sense to me. What happened was that I had assumptions that were erroneous. Without Declension's definition of division I would've asked you if there were different types of nothing. I would've asked is nothing a form of something especially without understanding what the law of identity was. You did not show me where my logic was wrong and why my logic was wrong. You contributed nothing at all. All you did was berate me, was condescending to me, and talk down to me in a smug way like I was dog. I get this BS from NT and,I do not like it. I certainly do not like it from you who is an aspie. I would think you would be better than that. This is where I have major problems. Let's say we have Set S that contains 3 empty sets {A,B,C} Is the superset of A,B, and C full or empty? If you look at an empty glass is it truly empty or is it truly full. Why can't an empty glass be full but filled with emptiness? If a glass is filled with water then why can't the glass be considered empty of emptiness.

This was the problem I saw with your statement. No, it is not common sense and it not obvious. There are different ways and angles to look at a concept, idea, or object. IMHO, common sense is unreliable and people throughout the ages have been knocked down and treated like crap because of this idea of seeing the obvious is more noble than going beneath the surface. Personally, I think the idea of common sense at the level it is regarded in our respective societies is not the answer but is one of the problems itself. I believe the level of nobility of this idea is a scourge and a blight on mankind and hampers mankind's thinking.

If you can teach me something or show me where, how, and why my thoughts are erroneous then please show me. I am willing to listen and learn but if you will just berate me then I've already tuned you out and it makes me want to tell you to stick it where the sun don't shine. Declension and Rosewood did and I have more respect for both of them than you.

What happens when you multiply zero by a spotted leopard? Do you get zero?

Mathematics only makes sense when you are talking about a restricted domain of discourse. In mathematics, there is no "universal set". There is no such word as "anything" in mathematics. There is only the phrase "all members of the set S".

Thanks Declension, all of this this makes sense now. It was the wording they used to present it that was poor. The concepts like division do have constraints as to what can be plugged into the variables am I correct? If we have a/b=c. a has to be a real number. b has to be a real number that is a nonzero number. c is a real number. These are our constraints for division.

Declension and Rosewood, both of you should be math teachers. Both of you know how to break this stuff down to where I can understand it. I love your concrete example of the spotted leopard. I've always felt like a dumbass for this. People would look at me like I was crazy and talk down to me like I was ret*d when all I was trying to do was make sense of this. It is not the math I have problems with it's their wording am I correct?

That's right. Actually (you can safely ignore this if you want) there is an extension of the real numbers called the complex numbers, and we can extend the definition of division so that a can be any complex number, b can be any nonzero complex number, and c ends up being a complex number. But note that even in this extension, we still do not define "a / b" when b is zero.

I'm bad at maths and I'm a computer programmer, I can count from zero to one though.

My working memory is terrible, which I think is the primary reason I have difficulty with math. During my IQ test, I'd get the first portion of a math problem worked out, and by the time I moved on to the next portion, I will have forgotten what answer I came up with for the first part.

I guess this isn't as much of an issue when you're able to write down all of your work and answers, but I also have a lot of trouble remembering the steps in different mathematical formulas.

I remember when I first learned basic algebra, and understood it really well...I was so excited! I wanted to do algebra problems all the time. They were so simple and elegant, and I picture the whole problem in my head easily. Unfortunately, algebra got more complicated (fractions? NOOOOOOO), and I came to hate it just as much as all the other types of math.

In my biology lab, we were split into groups and were instructed to do some calculations with the results we got in our lab assignment. I sat down and did all the calculations on my own (i've never been good with group work), then when my group members appeared to be struggling, I tried explaining to them how I came up with the answers...which only seemed to confuse them more. When the teacher came around, he checked my answers, and saw that they were all correct, but he was completely baffled by the method I used to come to the answers. I explained that I thought I was going what he'd shown us on the board, but it turns out I did something completely different. No wonder my group members were confused!

My biggest problem: anxiety. I was home schooled by a mother who is dyslexic and wasn't good at math. But, she did her best. I still grew up thinking it wasn't worth my time. Never had stuff explained in the literal way I need it to be.
I got to middle school and the class was HORRIBLE. The students' behavior was over-stimulating. They tapped their pencils, popped their gum, laughed loud, and when I expressed irritation, they did it more in order to bully me. I failed tests because of it. I am VERY literal, and can't have steps skipped. The teacher would cap it all in 15 minutes and skip stuff because "we should know it by now." I didn't. I was labeled as slow. I was not given help. I would have panic attacks on tests. I have to take my time on problems, and the tests weren't long enough. The teacher accused me of laziness. No one knew about my Asperger's.

Mom got the book for the next class over the summer, and let me teach pre-algebra to myself. I made 100s on all the tests for that class, administered at home supervised by my mother, at my own pace. I skipped that class and that teacher.

Made As in math ever since. But, It's MISERABLE.I have flashbacks every time I do math. That being said, I love it. I love the concepts, the numbers. It's like a game. I'm planning on teaching physics and calculus to myself when I have more time. Took a class on mathematical philosophy in college this semester and was at the top of the class. I had a teacher who believed I was capable of grasping the concepts.

Just because I think differently than the majority of people, doesn't mean I'm stupid. Teachers should believe in their students and adjust to meet their needs, NOT the other way around.

Some years ago I self-diagnosed with dyscalculia (it is difficult and expensive to get a diagnosis as an adult, in my country). A few weeks ago I found out about Aspergers. There seems to be some common problems in asperger and dyscalculia. So now I don´t know where I got which traits

1.) What concepts of maths do you struggle with?
Most of them, except very, very basic stuff (I´m ok with 8+2). My son is 12 and he is better at math than I am. He can calculate stuff in his head, I have to use my fingers.

2.) What usually makes you get the wrong answer i.e. silly mistakes?
Basically I don´t understand math. I do not have any ability to visualize things in my head (for more on not being able to visualize, see thread http://www.wrongplanet.net/modules.php? ... 54#4591454 on "High Performance IQ with no visualization ability")

3.) Do you understand maths but have problems applying?
Don´t understand. I am able to read graphs and diagrams, but I am not sure if that counts as math.

4.) Do you need the logic explained to understand?
I won´t understand. I can se the idea in + and - and * and / but besides that I don´t really understand. I will be able to do an exam (have done basic math at university) but it is a matter of memorizing some mathtechniques. After a short while I will forget the way to solve the problem and I will have to start from scratch the next time. I guess that my ability to pass exams is due to stubbornness, hard work and a good memory.

5.) Can you understand how all logic apply in questions?
No

6.) What usually throws you off?
most problems

7.) Your problems with maths in general?

Dyscalculia is more than not being able to do math. Dyscalculia comes with a lot of other traits as well
Here is a basic list
•Difficulty working with numbers
•Confused by math symbols
•Difficulty with basic facts (adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing)
•Often will reverse or transpose numbers (36: 63)
•Difficulty with mental math
•Difficulty telling time (on a normal watch)
•Difficulty with directions (as for playing a game)
•Difficulty grasping and remembering math concepts
•Poor memory for layout of things (for example, numbers on a clock)
•Limited strategic planning skills (like used in chess)

Besides these there can be difficulties with
•May have fear of money and cash transactions. May be unable to mentally figure change due back, the amounts to pay for tips, taxes, etc.
•Difficulty with the abstract concepts of time and direction. Inability to recall schedules, and sequences of past or future events. Unable to keep track of time. May be chronically late.
•May be unable to comprehend or "picture" mechanical processes. Lack "big picture/ whole picture" thinking. Poor ability to "visualize or picture" the location of the numbers on the face of a clock, the geographical locations of states, countries, oceans, streets, etc.
•Mistaken recollection of names. Poor name/face retrieval. Substitute names beginning with same letter
• Poor memory for the "layout" of things. Gets lost or disoriented easily. May have a poor sense of direction, loose things often, and seem absent minded. (Remember the absent minded professor
• May have poor athletic coordination, difficulty keeping up with rapidly changing physical directions like in aerobic, dance, and exercise classes. Difficulty remembering dance step sequences, rules for playing sports.

http://dyscalculiaforum.com/

It is much more than not being able to do math. But I gess I am lucky enogh to have a good memory and being quite stubborn, so I got through university (studied biology and geography). I do quite well with number-patterns and have worked with extracting data from databases and making reports with lots of graphs. To me, that is different from math problems and not difficult at all.

Helle

The operation of division "a / b = c" is defined in any so-called "division ring". A ring is a mathematical structure with 2 operations working on it (called addition and multiplication) satisfying a list of properties. The most common example of a ring is the reals. The reals have addition and multiplication defined in the usual way. The list of properties that these operations have to satisfy (See Wikipedia for details) are of course satisfied. Each ring has 2 special elements: The additive unity (the element that when added to another element doesn't change it. For the reals, this is zero) and the multiplicative unity (the element that when multiplied with another element doesn't change it. For the reals, this is one).

A division ring is a ring with the additional property that each element, except the additive unity (zero, in case of the reals) has a multiplicative inverse (that is, for each element a, there can be found an element b such that a * b = 1. This property allows one to define a division operation. For the reals, it's just the regular division that we're used to. But one can construct a whole array of rings with a division operation that look and operate quite a bit differently from the reals. One such example is the division ring of the complex numbers as you mentioned, which in a way extends the reals. You can pull this extension even further and consider the quaternions, which can be seen as a 4 dimensional set (where the reals are 1 dimensional and the complex numbers are 2 dimensional). Addition, multiplication and division are well-defined for the quaternions, satisfying all the properties of a division ring. One remarkable fact though is that multiplication of quaternions is not communtative. So a * b = b * a is not necessarily true for quaternions.

Long story short, there are tons of ways to define division, depending on the underlying set that it works on. But in the context of algebra and rings, it is never required to have division being defined with the additive unity (zero, for the reals) in the denominator.

To get back to the original question of this thread: I have no issues with math. In fact, I studied math at the university and I'm still very interested in the field. Why I "get" math? I don't know. I just do. I like the structure, the lack of ambiguity in it. My MSc program was very heavy in mathematical logic, which is (in my eyes) the purest form of math, where one very carefully considers the "rules of the game" (definitions of theorems, proofs, provability, truth).

Well, you are beyond my level in the understanding of math. I literally do not understand what a quaternion is and I have never heard of it. I only have my bachelors. I believe I do understand this though. We have mathematical systems division being only one part. Each system has certain constraints to it and once you leave these constraints the properties of a particular mathematical system do not necessarily hold up any more. In a way,it is why I had many problems. The division I was taught has certain constraints to it.

Declension and Species by the questions I have asked and the problems I have had with division what do you guys think of my ability to be able to understand and do math?

This is the reason so many people learn to hate math in school. They learn to think it's all about following a set of rules that the teacher tells you, and you are not to question. You are also told there is a "correct" answer and an "incorrect answer" and that's all that matters. It's taught for people who don't like real thinking.

I'm good at word and math games, and just math and literature in general. Not sure if this means anything at all.