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Adults with Aspergers Seem 'Normal' to Me

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melanieeee
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21 Apr 2012, 10:18 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
That is why I was suggesting that maybe it is a childhood disorder?


Then why do I and other adults still have AS symptoms. Just because the adult aspies you've interacted did not seem to does not mean you can generalize us all based on them.


I don't mean to generalize. It's like separation anxiety and bed wetting. Separation anxiety and bed wetting can occur in adults but it is predominate in children.


Right and most recent research shows most autistic/aspie children do not become non-autistic upon reaching adulthood, nor do they typically disappear off the face of the earth....so how would it be predominate in children?


Do you mean studies have shown that all aspies still meet criteria (if they have been diagnosed as a child) into adulthood. I would like to see these studies.

But that was not what I was not the context I used that statement anyway or at least intended. It was suppose to be in response to my observations that aspies behave normally.



No, I mean many of us still have symptoms......and many who might not appear to are just working very hard to conceal it, but when it comes down to it aspergers/autism has to do with different brain wiring we're born with, so it would make sense most children who are autistic or aspie are still going to be as adults.


You mean neurological differences. Neurons change as we develop from child to adult. Also AS is not defined by brain differences, it is defined by behaviors. If you are able to concel, it is not considered clinically significant. It's like what Tony Attwood said in his book: if you leave the child by him/her self they do not have an observable clinical social impairment, it is only when you put the child in a room with others.


Yes and since people on the spectrum have neurological differences that separate them from neurotypicals, it would make sense that though neurons change through development ours will probably develop differently than an neurotypicals. Also neurological difference from my understanding implies brain difference. And where are you getting that autism is defined by behaviors alone?

Also I don't think it's up to you if it's clinically significant, that is up to the psychiatrist/mental health professional doing the diagnosing. Also no crap leaving a child by their self they wont have observable social impairment, that's because social interaction takes two individuals not a lone one.


DSM is where I am getting that AS is defined by behaviors alone. At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.



Last edited by melanieeee on 21 Apr 2012, 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

VeggieGirl
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21 Apr 2012, 10:18 am

A lot of adults with AS do experience clinically significantly distress, whether or not they seem normal to you. A lot of things in the DSM are invisible to other people. People can hide things.



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21 Apr 2012, 10:19 am

melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
That is why I was suggesting that maybe it is a childhood disorder?


Then why do I and other adults still have AS symptoms. Just because the adult aspies you've interacted did not seem to does not mean you can generalize us all based on them.


I don't mean to generalize. It's like separation anxiety and bed wetting. Separation anxiety and bed wetting can occur in adults but it is predominate in children.


Right and most recent research shows most autistic/aspie children do not become non-autistic upon reaching adulthood, nor do they typically disappear off the face of the earth....so how would it be predominate in children?


Do you mean studies have shown that all aspies still meet criteria (if they have been diagnosed as a child) into adulthood. I would like to see these studies.

But that was not what I was not the context I used that statement anyway or at least intended. It was suppose to be in response to my observations that aspies behave normally.



No, I mean many of us still have symptoms......and many who might not appear to are just working very hard to conceal it, but when it comes down to it aspergers/autism has to do with different brain wiring we're born with, so it would make sense most children who are autistic or aspie are still going to be as adults.


You mean neurological differences. Neurons change as we develop from child to adult. Also AS is not defined by brain differences, it is defined by behaviors. If you are able to concel, it is not considered clinically significant. It's like what Tony Attwood said in his book: if you leave the child by him/her self they do not have an observable clinical social impairment, it is only when you put the child in a room with others.


Yes and since people on the spectrum have neurological differences that separate them from neurotypicals, it would make sense that though neurons change through development ours will probably develop differently than an neurotypicals. Also neurological difference from my understanding implies brain difference. And where are you getting that autism is defined by behaviors alone?

Also I don't think it's up to you if it's clinically significant, that is up to the psychiatrist/mental health professional doing the diagnosing. Also no crap leaving a child by their self they wont have observable social impairment, that's because social interaction takes two individuals not a lone one.


DSM? At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.


Where did I say everyone has a disorder, I personally have a disorder, and I don't appreciate the assumption I must have magically grown out of it when I reached adulthood, because you think it's just a childhood disorder.

Also according to even the DSM autism and aspergers is more than behavior....sensory overload is not a behavior, being unable to process all the social cues in social interaction is not a behavior, many of the symptoms are not behaviors. Some symptoms are more observable through behavior but no most of us cannot just be behaviorally modified into neurotypicals.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 21 Apr 2012, 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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21 Apr 2012, 10:19 am

Also, "if you are able to conceal, it is not clinically significant" is not true. And I will bring fibromyalgia into this again, because I have that too:

I can conceal fibromyalgia, and I do conceal it a lot of the time. I just am not in the habit of displaying the effects of chronic pain. This does not mean the pain is not clinically significant. It means I don't show it. And it does take effort to not show it.

As far as AS, it takes effort to try to "normalize" one's social presentation. I don't think I ever truly come across as "normal" but I do some things socially around other people. Maintaining that effort is exhausting and means that I don't really socialize with anyone for more than 10-15 minutes unless the topic is something I have a personal interest and/or a personal stake in. My impairment doesn't go away. Even if I do appear to interact like an NT, I am not interacting like an NT. I am instead trying to appear as if I interact like an NT. This is exhausting. It is not just exhausting because I am trying to force how I interact/communicate into a mold that is not natural or comfortable to me, but because all of autism's other features are present, and if I focus on keeping one thing under control, something else might become obvious (like stimming - or I stop the stimming but can't interact socially).



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21 Apr 2012, 10:20 am

melanieeee wrote:
DSM is where I am getting that AS is defined by behaviors alone. At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.


But if you are diagnosed with AS, you have a disorder.



melanieeee
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21 Apr 2012, 10:23 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
That is why I was suggesting that maybe it is a childhood disorder?


Then why do I and other adults still have AS symptoms. Just because the adult aspies you've interacted did not seem to does not mean you can generalize us all based on them.


I don't mean to generalize. It's like separation anxiety and bed wetting. Separation anxiety and bed wetting can occur in adults but it is predominate in children.


Right and most recent research shows most autistic/aspie children do not become non-autistic upon reaching adulthood, nor do they typically disappear off the face of the earth....so how would it be predominate in children?


Do you mean studies have shown that all aspies still meet criteria (if they have been diagnosed as a child) into adulthood. I would like to see these studies.

But that was not what I was not the context I used that statement anyway or at least intended. It was suppose to be in response to my observations that aspies behave normally.



No, I mean many of us still have symptoms......and many who might not appear to are just working very hard to conceal it, but when it comes down to it aspergers/autism has to do with different brain wiring we're born with, so it would make sense most children who are autistic or aspie are still going to be as adults.


You mean neurological differences. Neurons change as we develop from child to adult. Also AS is not defined by brain differences, it is defined by behaviors. If you are able to concel, it is not considered clinically significant. It's like what Tony Attwood said in his book: if you leave the child by him/her self they do not have an observable clinical social impairment, it is only when you put the child in a room with others.


Yes and since people on the spectrum have neurological differences that separate them from neurotypicals, it would make sense that though neurons change through development ours will probably develop differently than an neurotypicals. Also neurological difference from my understanding implies brain difference. And where are you getting that autism is defined by behaviors alone?

Also I don't think it's up to you if it's clinically significant, that is up to the psychiatrist/mental health professional doing the diagnosing. Also no crap leaving a child by their self they wont have observable social impairment, that's because social interaction takes two individuals not a lone one.


DSM? At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.


Where did I say everyone has a disorder, I personally have a disorder, and I don't appreciate the assumption I must have magically grown out of it when I reached adulthood, because you think it's just a childhood disorder.


I am not saying that you are saying that everyone has a disorder, I was making an independent statement. Also it was not my intention to target you. No body magically stops bed wetting or stops having separation anxiety, we grow out of it.



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21 Apr 2012, 10:23 am

Verdandi wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
DSM is where I am getting that AS is defined by behaviors alone. At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.


But if you are diagnosed with AS, you have a disorder.


To be fair not everyone with a disorder such as AS is diagnosed...but true.


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21 Apr 2012, 10:23 am

I don't see myself as "disabled" in the sense of legally qualifying for special accommodations or aid or the like... I have been able to graduate from college, work, do sports, things that average people do.

However, there are many social situations when I see the other people being completely at ease, while I am completely clueless and I struggle to do the same as they do, so I get anxious and discomforted. I come off as "passive" (like Tuttle said), uninterested, cold, rude, etc, no matter how hard I try to look friendly and get involved, and despite all the communication theory I have studied.

With time and repetition, one learns to stim without being seen, and to shut up and nod instead of interrupting when unable to join a conversation (because it's small talk, or because the environment is too loud, or because unsure of when to say things) or abashed by things that don't make sense. One learns to avoid confrontations if they punctually lead to meltdowns, to say no to invitations if the event is "too unstructured", and to omit opinions that are too personal or that people wouldn't agree with.

Of course, this degree of self-control doesn't always hold. Hence, the people who see me often (and pay attention to what I do) on a regular basis and for long enough, realize that there is something "weird" or "wrong" about me. But they are few (I guess).


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melanieeee
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21 Apr 2012, 10:25 am

Verdandi wrote:
Also, "if you are able to conceal, it is not clinically significant" is not true. And I will bring fibromyalgia into this again, because I have that too:

I can conceal fibromyalgia, and I do conceal it a lot of the time. I just am not in the habit of displaying the effects of chronic pain. This does not mean the pain is not clinically significant. It means I don't show it. And it does take effort to not show it.

As far as AS, it takes effort to try to "normalize" one's social presentation. I don't think I ever truly come across as "normal" but I do some things socially around other people. Maintaining that effort is exhausting and means that I don't really socialize with anyone for more than 10-15 minutes unless the topic is something I have a personal interest and/or a personal stake in. My impairment doesn't go away. Even if I do appear to interact like an NT, I am not interacting like an NT. I am instead trying to appear as if I interact like an NT. This is exhausting. It is not just exhausting because I am trying to force how I interact/communicate into a mold that is not natural or comfortable to me, but because all of autism's other features are present, and if I focus on keeping one thing under control, something else might become obvious (like stimming - or I stop the stimming but can't interact socially).


Fibromyalgia is an internalising disorder though not characterized by behaviors.



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21 Apr 2012, 10:50 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
DSM is where I am getting that AS is defined by behaviors alone. At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.


But if you are diagnosed with AS, you have a disorder.


To be fair not everyone with a disorder such as AS is diagnosed...but true.


My point wasn't that you need a diagnosis to have a disorder. It's more that having the label "AS" applied to you means you have a disorder.

Anyway, AS is not defined by behaviors alone. It's diagnosed through observable behavior, but that's not its definition.



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21 Apr 2012, 10:56 am

melanieeee wrote:
Fibromyalgia is an internalising disorder though not characterized by behaviors.


That is completely irrelevant to my point. Said point being that hiding disability does not mean the impairment has gone away. What you did here is called shifting goalposts.

Also, autism is not characterized by behaviors either. It's simply diagnosed through observation of said behaviors.



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21 Apr 2012, 10:59 am

melanieeee wrote:
I am not saying that you are saying that everyone has a disorder, I was making an independent statement. Also it was not my intention to target you. No body magically stops bed wetting or stops having separation anxiety, we grow out of it.


Bed wetting and seperation anxiety is hardly comparable to autism or AS...and obviously all of us don't grow out of autism/AS, so you shouldn't assume we do.


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21 Apr 2012, 11:16 am

Just to stir things up:

Prof. Dr. Dose, one of the top autism specialists in Germany claims that AS is being heavily overdiagnosed, and that only people who are OBVIOUSLY incapacitated by their symptoms should receive an AS diagnosis. I assume that would mean that if you can mask your symptoms you don't have AS, by definition. A "normal-seeming" aspie wouldn't be an aspie at all for him. His views are controversial but find a lot of acceptance.



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21 Apr 2012, 11:26 am

melanieeee wrote:
Externalising disorders are external in the sense that it is their behaviors that is the source of their dysfunction but yeah I'm not sure if it is commonly use but feel free to look it up.


I am not studying psychology but this statement is incorrect.
One example given for an externalizing disorder is ADHD. In ADHD it is NOT the behaviour causing the dysfunction.
It is also incorrect to say that an ASD is an externalizing disorder, because it is not. It is also no internalizing disorder, it is neither, because it does not fit in that classification system.


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21 Apr 2012, 11:50 am

Nobody seems normal to me.


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21 Apr 2012, 12:31 pm

Halligeninseln wrote:
Just to stir things up:

Prof. Dr. Dose, one of the top autism specialists in Germany claims that AS is being heavily overdiagnosed, and that only people who are OBVIOUSLY incapacitated by their symptoms should receive an AS diagnosis. I assume that would mean that if you can mask your symptoms you don't have AS, by definition. A "normal-seeming" aspie wouldn't be an aspie at all for him. His views are controversial but find a lot of acceptance.


Yeah but in Germany autism is still believed to be psychodynamic in origin ie if you talk about your relationship with your mother enough, you'll be cured. They do not accept that it has biological causes.