cure low function autism

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I'm not here to educate you. Anyone who looks up the current neuroscience of autism will see that it's not as simple as different brain wiring. And the scientists doing research don't think cure is impossible. If one chooses to promote hopelessness in regards to the goal of cure, one should have a cogent argument to back the doubts up.


I've heard of that. Expertise isn't necessary to have heard of that phenomenon.


Complexity and current lack of knowledge of the complexities don't prove that it can't be dealt with. And why not just adapt to such adjustments?


But you won't share your intelligence with others through cure. You seem to like being higher up than others. You're not the one who needs to be cured.


Helping them what?


Why is something ok simply cause they're "born" with it? Nobody wants to be mentally disabled. Err on the side of that. They're not all like you. Not all of us are as brilliant and clever as you. Some of us would like our cut of the prosperity being gained.

What, of any of my statements, actually made you think I want or need to be educated in any way about it? I already understand how it works. It seems that you are picking and choosing what information you want to use, and what statements I have made that you want to take issue with, where if you would actually read the whole thing, it's not nearly as biased as you seem to think. I also NEVER said that it's *entirely* to do with the way the brain itself functions, so please, I ask that you try to stop reading things into my statements that I did not put there. If I say something that is unclear to you, please just ask for clarification. I am very careful to try to explain myself properly *exactly* the way I mean it to come out; I do not speak or write with "hidden" meanings, and I would greatly appreciate if you would stop trying to put them where they don't belong.

The example about phantom limb was not meant to be an insult, implying that you don't know what's going on, it was an example to illustrate how interconnected the brain is, and how different parts of the brain, when altered through injury or stimulation change, will compensate in unforseen ways. To "cure" autism, do you suggest trial and error? Who's kids are going to be the subjects? What issues will they be left with from the tinkering? Adapting to the adjustments could be just as bad, if not the same thing entirely, as adjusting to having what they already have, so you are proposing trading one set of difficulties for another, potentially worse set?

Yes, I am fully aware that scientists believe a cure is theoretically possible BUT not without making major changes to the way the person *is*, deep down. and I do take issue with this, since these kids and adults don't necessarily have the ability to consent. If they did, fine and dandy.

Helping them to communicate and function? I thought that was fairly clear.. I'm sorry if it wasn't..

How do you know nobody wants to be "disabled"? How do you know that everyone feels the way you do? I didn't say "don't look for any way to help these kids and adults, because they were born that way". I am quite content, now that I've learned to understand myself, with my "disability", and I think, honestly, that with more support and encouragement, most would be. If you can't change who you are, change how you see and cope with it. That's not to say I don't realize they need a lot more then I do, all I mean is that I wouldn't change who I am simply because someone else thinks it's strange or abnormal or a disability. I wouldn't go back and undo my whole life just to have it easier. I know that I'm not everyone, and I'm not attempting to speak for everyone; I am giving my opinion on the matter, and my opinion is that they need *help* not an invasive "cure" that will change who they are if they don't or might not want to be changed.

And please, no offense is intended in anything I say, so for my sake, try to avoid being condescending; I am trying not to be, and trying to be fairly even-tempered about what I say being taken out of context and manipulated, and I would appreciate the same from you. I don't think I'm "above" anyone or "better" then anyone, I am me, and I am happy with me. How is the fact that I can't share the way my brain works with other people "liking being higher-up"? A "cure" isn't going to make everyone perfect and smart, it's just going to change them into something more "acceptable" and that begs the question of "by who's definition of acceptable are we judging?" If I seriously thought there was any sort of "cure" that would make people smart, I'd advocate it for the general population in a heartbeat! I wish everyone could see things the way I do, just so they could understand where I'm coming from (and no, I don't mean permanently, just like a glimpse into my head). I wish every time I learned something, everyone else did, too. I would LOVE to share my "gifts" with people, be it to better them, or just so they could understand. And before you say it, YES, I DO wish that I could sneak a peak into everyone else's head, learn what they know, see things how they do, and gain a better understanding.

It hasn't been terribly well studied, you are correct, hence the modifier "potentially". I was, of course, assuming worst-case scenario, as I do whenever I consider the impairments my children could potentially have, as I have no offspring currently.

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111102/ ... 9025a.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... s=15780853 (source of quotations)

"Correlation for social impairment or competence between parents and their children and between spouses was on the order of .4. In families in which both parents scored in the upper quartile for social impairment on the SRS, mean SRS score of offspring was significantly elevated (effect size 1.5). Estimated assortative mating explained approximately 30% of the variation in parent SRS scores."

"Children from families in which both parents manifest subthreshold autistic traits exhibit a substantial shift in the distribution of their scores for impairment in reciprocal social behavior, toward the pathological end. As has been previously demonstrated in children, heritable subthreshold autistic impairments are measurable in adults and appear continuously distributed in the general population."

You haven't said much of what you know. You haven't shown that cure isn't possible. The scientists doing research haven't said cure isn't possible.


A lot has to be known and devised. Again, this doesn't repudiate the possibility of cure. You're just trying to scare others away from trying.


Repairing parts of the brain to guarantee ability is necessary. Ability has a neurological tangible basis. That has basically nothing to do with the vague concept of the way someone is deep down. First of all, where was the consent to become disabled in the first place? Nobody would want to remain mentally impaired. That's a crazy idea.


Wanting to be able to do things and have the consequent success is a universal instinct.


You don't have the needs for curative treatment that others do. Don't try to stop others from getting it. What meager "help" do you approve of? What does it mean to change who they are? What is so "invasive" about cure? I think humiliation is invasive. I think not getting to do things due to weakness is invasive. I think losing out on opportunities to others who have higher aptitude is invasive. A drastic change is needed.


It seemed kind of offensive. You can't just reverse that by accusing me of things. You wouldn't be happy with yourself if you didn't have the aptitudes you have.


You know that there are others who don't have the strengths you have, and you don't seem to want there to be cures that would bring them the same aptitudes. Yet you are proud of your own strengths. That's why I think you like being above others. Yes cure will make others smart. You can't change the definition into something that makes the argument look terrible and mean. I want there to be progress, but you're making me out to be the heavy.


You don't seem to want to acknowledge that there could be a possibility for such a cure.

sometimes i've wondered if people with conditions like down syndrome want to be cured. (since it's a genetic mutation, i don't see that happening.) then it occurred to me that i know nothing about the way their minds work. for all i know they experience things and see the world in ways that they wouldn't want to give up.

the trouble with choosing to cure persons with LFA is that we're none of us qualified to speak for them. (unless someone here belongs to said group and doesnt identify as such.) we can talk about it forever but i don't think we'll get anywhere. we can't "cure" them without their input unless we're willing to violate their civil and human rights.

i've never considered my autism a disease or a disability. for one thing, i wasn't diagnosed till i was 20. by then all those traits which can be attributed to autism had had a hand in shaping the person i am. beyond that, i believe that some of the experiences i've had as a result have been part of making me a better person. my life hasn't been easy for both reasons related to and unrelated to being autistic. as a result, i am better able to be compassionate, sympathetic and empathetic in my treatment of others, ever mindful of the struggles which people from all types of backgrounds may face.

i wouldn't be willing to give that up and i'd be pissed if someone tried to change me, particularly without my input.

I'm sorry, was not aware that I should be going on, at length, about things that are largely irrelevant, just to "show what I know" rather then assume that you can contextually pick up on things that it's fairly clear, to me, that I am reasonably informed about. Now that I am aware that this is necessary to not be, essentially, insulted, I will try to do so. And really, I can't give proof that a cure isn't possible, but a cure without massive side-effect? When have we, as a species, "cured" any birth "defect" without massive side-effect? The fact that this involves the brain, which we really don't know all that much about (if you don't agree with that statement, by all means, explain the entire process of the brain, including all the "mysteries" to me, I'm willing to learn.) makes it that much more difficult.
I'm doing no such thing, I'm giving my opinion on the matter, and my opinion is that, given what we do and do not know, and given our technology, it's very unlikely this will have the desired effect without substantial repercussions, and I'm genuinely interested to know who, exactly, you propose this be tested on. Would you volunteer?
No? Nobody at all would prefer to stay who they are despite problems? Changing your ability has nothing to do with who you are? I seriously beg to differ on both points, but you clearly have no interest in listening to/reading my reasons, since you haven't yet, so I'll just gloss over that, and we can consider this particular point dropped.
Of course, I never said they don't want the ability to do what normal people do. Again, please stop putting words in my mouth.

How am I trying to prevent anyone from anything? I'm posting an opinion on a f****** message board, not protesting or putting laws into play for my own amusement or selfish ideals. Seriously- perspective. It's not like I'm saying "OMG STOP LOOKING FOR A CURE BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH CHANGING PEOPLE!! !!"
What's invasive about brain surgeries? Medications with side-effects? Jeez, what ISN'T?
Sure humiliation is invasive, so is rejection and people liking you when you don't want anything to do with them.. What's your point? You'll deal with that crap weather you are NT or ASD, the problem there isn't so much that THEY are different, is that OTHER PEOPLE can't accept different.

You are correct, a drastic change is needed. We need to educate people. We need to implement specialized education, not just "one size fits all" special ed, but really, truly individualized. We need to increase acceptance so they AREN'T humiliated, we need to find them occupations that fit their interests and needs. Losing out on opportunities to people with "higher aptitude" is something everyone in life goes through, "curing" autism isn't going to change that at all, it might make it easier, or it might not if there are significant side effects. You don't know, and neither do I, so it's a moot point.

If it came off as offensive, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to, and I believe it was a communication problem, but other then this post, which has some things that are potentially offensive (in response to some that I find equally or more so, I should mention) I have no intention of offending anyone, ever. It's counter-productive to debate, which is what this is, at least to me. I am not trying to "turn things around on you", but if you are going to attack my opinion, please do so without making it "about me"; you don't know me well enough to make those assumptions, and they are incorrect. I do not feel I am above other people, and yes, I would be just as happy if I didn't have my specific gifts. You know why? Because I would still be me. I would be a different me, for sure, and I wouldn't *want* to give them up, but if I never had them to begin with? I'm not jealous or envious of people who are smarter or more social then I am; I realize they are who they are and I am who I am. It took a fair bit of soul-searching to figure that out, but I did, and I'm content with it.
Again, when did I say I oppose any and all cures and assistance? Never, that's when. I personally don't agree with what could, currently, be *used* as a "cure", but not once have I said we shouldn't be looking for ways to help. Not once.

Of course I'm proud of my strengths, but not just because I have them. I am proud of them because I have made efforts to develop them, and that I managed to do so completely without help. If I'd needed help, that would have been just as fine with me. A cure will NOT make them smarter, as generally under the autistic shell, there is serious genius. The LFA children who's shell was cracked have amazing abilities, and when they find an outlet, they do amazing things. A cure will make them easier to deal with, and socially acceptable. Proper treatment will bring out the genius, too, though, and invasive brain-changing could seriously hurt their abilities. Do a google search on "autism genius" if you don't believe me.
[/quote] A cure for stupidity? Well there is one, but it doesn't involve anything but proper education and encouragement *cough* (also, I was joking; I wouldn't seriously want to change people to make them fit the way I think they should be, that's just wrong. If they wanted it, fine, if not, fine.)

I don't know what gets you to now even say something is irrelevant, for reasons you won't say. Again, complexity isn't a reason to doubt something is possible. That's what the research is for. They're trying to learn things that are currently unknown. Nobody said cure was going to be ready overnight.



By the time it is to be "tested", they're going to have to know basically all of the variables that will be involved, leaving minimal room for risk.


Abilities are necessary and valuable, but they don't compose who a person is really.


There are many saying the things you're saying. Too much support for those who are trying to prevent curative research. You don't seem passive on this issue.


What is specialized education going to do? There isn't any proof that all can learn basic things, regardless of any underlying neurological weaknesses? "Acceptance" doesn't prevent humiliation. I'm talking of pride and dignity here. It can't be guaranteed that occupations that fit their interests will be available to them, when they have impairments that could preclude them from completing crucial tasks. I don't want things to be the same. I don't want anyone to lose out. I don't approve of hierarchy.



I have to admit, I'm very envious. I may be too rebellious.


I didn't say you oppose assistance.


I honestly don't think you know what it's like to depend on others for help. You don't know until you've experienced it. Autistic "shell"? Not all are geniuses. I have to repudiate these exaggerated claims because they are unsubstantiated. I'm not trying to be rude. I'm trying to disabuse what is being said here. And these aren't trivial matters. I have repeatedly talked of what cure is and what it's for, but you say it has to do with acceptability. I don't believe that. I can't conclude anything other than that you oppose radical change.


The way you said it hinted that such change is impossible. It seemed to me like a way of arguing for the status-quo by mentioning some kind of scarcity and claiming that scarcity can't change. If I were to be convinced cure is impossible, I would then have to accept the inequities of the current order as natural.

Yeah, sorry, I was just agreeing with your point that it's not all just LFA.




I don't think it's necessarily all that realistic to fathom the possibility of wiping the earth clean of it. Once we do, more things will pop up. There's this really neat thing called genetics which are adapting, changing, mutating, etc. Constantly. There's also the whole problem with certain mental disabilities being caused by situations, not brain chemistry. In order to eradicate ALL mental disabilities, you'd have to also eliminate things such as car accidents, natural disasters, abuse, or anything that could be considered a traumatic experience. How do you suppose we do that? As for the neurological ones, we'd have to find the exact cause behind it, then stop people who carry such a gene from ever procreating, which is a human rights violation. We'll "cure" one thing, and something else will take it's place. That's how things go. If that weren't the case, we'd never be sick and everyone would be perfect.




If nobody had strengths or weaknesses, everyone would be just as good as everyone else in every aspect. It's ridiculous to believe otherwise. Would you rather me say you have deficits? I never said anything about sharing weaknesses, I said everybody has them. There's a difference. I don't think I said anything about joining hands and smiling and peace, there are too many ignorant people in the world who aren't willing on accepting that people can be different and there's not a problem with it to join hands and smile in peace. Maybe before making comments in such a "matter of fact"/ acting like everyone else is below you style, you should make sure you're understanding them right. I have a feeling that you're just here to cause trouble, though, so I'm not going to bother to respond to the absurdness you might have to say in reply to this. Have a nice day.


(Edited to fix tags)

Last edited by twich on 28 Jun 2012, 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I, likewise, don't have a clue exactly what information you want me to "prove" or "confirm", or whatever it is you are looking for me to do. I feel I have explained my points and views quite well, which would make redundantly explaining... pointless, I suppose. Perhaps irrelevant was the wrong word choice, I'm sorry. I think... hmm.. I think perhaps "unnecessary explination"?(however, thank you for phrasing the reply the way you did, I felt significantly less.... attacked, I suppose, and that's all I was asking for ^_^)
And I know, and understand that where we are now, we don't know enough, unfortunately that doesn't matter for a lot of people, and they are willing to just deal with the side effects and I feel that is so very very wrong.
would you be who you are without the ability to speak? Without the ability to understand language? Would you be who you are right now, the core of who you are, if you had telepathy? Of course not. Who you are can change if you want it to, but it should be a choice, and abilities do change who you are, because, ultimately, they shape your experiences and opinions. They may not be the only aspect, but they are a big one.
that's because you gave me an opposing opinion, and I enjoy debate ^_^ in reality (not on this one thread, that is), this has never even entered my normal sphere of interest. I'm in no way opposed to research, but like I said, too many people are too OK with negative side effects, and just want to push everyone to a baseline normality, damn the consequences. This can be seen with all sorts of medications and surgeries (like the girl who was born with serious defects, and her parents decided because she was alive when she came out, that the answer was surgeries, and something like 5 million later, she's still blind, will never talk, will never have a good or decent life, but has normal brain functions and intelligence, so she knows how much she suffers)

It's not the actual cure I have issue with, it's how it will be used before it's ready. I should have made that more clear, and I certainly apologize for that.
How do you know they experience pride and dignity? Just because you have it doesn't mean they do. I'm NOT saying they don't, I'm just saying... Perhaps those feelings don't exist to them at all. What then?
I have to ask for help on things all the time; there are many many things I cannot do on my own; I have major issues with time management, motivation, self-respect (you might not think so, based on how I present myself, but even though I love who I am, usually, when I get a funk going, it's pretty bad, and I need help getting back out)

I also have physical "disabilities"; crippling chronic daily headaches and migraines, and a back injury that causes mobility issues; I am often bed-ridden as a result of one or both, or unable to drive/talk/work etc. So yes, I do very much understand needing people, perhaps more then most (not most aspies, just most people in general)

I'm not opposed to radical change, I'm opposed to the people who will end up implementing it, because look what they have done so far... Even just to people with autism. They don't tend to listen and understand what the child needs, they try to change what the child needs, and I feel that's wrong.

No, I'm sorry, it was more like sarcasm then suggestion or dispute. Given the stance I've taken on this issue, I figured it would be clear, but I should have clarified. I apologize, I forget that not everyone shares my sense of humor or understands my intent.

I also agree that the OP is here only to cause trouble for everyone. All of his threads have been like this.

Trying to troll Autistic people is kind of pathetic, man.

I think they could come up with solutions to the other problems you mentioned too. They don't have to stop anyone from procreating. I think gene therapy could get rid of harmful genetic variations.


Why not make it like that, with there being no weaknesses?

Not all have weaknesses. Some have very few weaknesses, while some have overwhelming weaknesses. That's not fair.

You should consider that you may be saying inflammatory things that undermine goals. I have a right to respond. If dissenting and questioning others is "causing trouble", then I bet you want only conformity and obedience, with nobody daring to debate those who agree with you, and all just saying things to repeatedly confirm the ideas you favor.

Nobody is trying to carry it out yet. They're still just doing research.


Being impaired is a sad way to have one's experiences shaped. It's not a great way to live.


I don't know what this baseline normality is. A cure can't be used before it's ready, cause it doesn't even exist before it's ready.


I don't experience any. Impairment prevents things like dignity and pride.

I'm not talking about emotional support. I'm talking of dependence on the help of others for basic tasks.


You weren't saying you needed all this help before.


This isn't a laughing matter. You haven't been clear as you've been making conflicting statements. Don't apologize to me.

I'm just going to ignore the rest of what you said, because I don't really care anymore..

Why should I have mentioned it? It doesn't define who I am, it's just a small roadblock that I have to overcome, and it wasn't relevant until you said I don't ever need help. Should I go out of my way to point out to everyone that I have discussions with that I'm pretty majorly broken? HA! There's a good way to keep people from talking to you..

I don't really care if you respond, I'm not going to be looking at this thread anymore. I don't see what's so serious about a message board; it's just a bunch of people discussing opinions. Whoopie-doo.

It doesn't contradict the reality of the many "auties" out there who have academic success, followed by actual career success, who have learned social skills on their own, and who even have friends and families.

When you have heaps of people with a disorder, there's bound to be lots of them who go against the grain. It doesn't mean that they're the majority though.

First and foremost, THANK YOU Monkeybuttorama!! Much better eloquent responses than I could've come up with! I think dalurker's responses are very realistic, but they really show how easy it is for us to be selfish and not try to maximize the success and minimize the hurt for those that do not need to be hurt.

What some people say is wrong with autism or a faction of autism really don't get the whole picture. Heck, my parents don't seem to get it totally either. All they know how to do is over-complain and over-criticize half of the time :/ I still love 'em though!