2 Wk Window to Discuss Here 2 Autism Documentaries

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Tuttle wrote:

It seems to me that a rather large percentage of the people on WP are spending most of their time here talking about how their own brains are different from the brains of other people. I have not observed you on these other threads telling them it is not a thing to even talk about, so I am speculating there is some other reason why you have come on my thread and are saying this

Also, in general I have been wondering why the Playing The Autism Card May Be Harmful To Humanity thread has been so popular, and because I am kind of dim, it took me a long time to finally figure it out.. I think for many (though hopefully not all) it is because they think/feel I am going to try to take their autism away from them, so take away themselves, their real selves, and they vicariously want to experience someone or other 'stop' me from doing that. I put the marks around the word stop because I obviously cannot do that. so obviously no one can stop me from doing it.

Back to the brain studies. .I am guessing a lot of them are, poorly designed experimental set-ups that lead to a lot of incomplete mixed-up correlations and false conclusions, but anybody please correct me if I am wrong.

First of all, in one study I read yesterday they only began imaging these child's brains at age two, but A LOT of stuff happens way before then---that is probably when the brain is most flexible and still forming--so this is one obvious potential flaw; and then, as I mentioned yesterday, what kind of people are the control groups composed of? And I think in the same study I read yesterday the finding was the correlation between a thicker cerebellum area in the brains of the autistic children ( I am not sure this is accurate, but something like this. I am too lazy to look it up). Well, if this is genetic, which there is maybe no evidence of, but it surely could be, then yeah, but not all the people here on WP have this kind of brain. Probably some do, but if different people have different kinds of brains which are affected by the environment for so many different reasons because the brain is so flexible, then why are so many people here going to such an effort to lump themselves under one umbrella? I am suspecting there is some kind of psychological payoff for doing this.

Another thing about these studies, they do not even seem to say what is the level of autism of most of the participants they are studying, but I assume it is mainly low to middle functioning autistics, as they would get clearer results, so why are the people here who are probably higher functioning autistics putting themselves under this kind of tent? I think there are a lot of different reasons for doing it, but it might not be the most effective way to sort things out for oneself in such a way that one functions better and is happier..

But anyway, to whomever from WP is reading this. Yes, your brain IS different. So is mine. I know my brain is VERY different. On this one voice bulletin board many years ago I called myself a freak of nature, but the moderator didn't post my message--am not sure why except that he was trying to protect me as he generally posted anything else, One thing for sure, thinking about myself in this way definitely amplifies the experience, which I wrote on which I have named autistic encapsulation amplification. Interestingly, it just now occurs to me that this might not necessarily be a bad thing. It would depend on the contextual situation.

To continue, it seems to me these studies are in many ways obviously flawed, and I do not see anyone coming out here to refute my opinion. Perhaps the people making these studies are finding out something, but remember, they are getting paid for doing this. it is their career, their profession, and also people do need to do something to keep busy, and they may end up discovering something or other---however, if you are an autistic person who is using them as some kind of evidence (for I am not sure what), I would suggest to begin to look at it all from the perspective of how it going to help you personally have a decent and happy life, and so be able to be in more of a position to not only help yourself but even be able to help other people. I suggest to stop and think about this.

I said I would write something for parents of autistic children, and here is one idea. If your child is in a little room, I suggest to learn about rooms. If your child has made a room, if his brain is doing that, then he already knows how to make rooms. That is a lot. I am interested in various religions, not just one, as, for one thing, certain spiritual writing is a good allegory for human brain function and was probably intended to be this. From the New Testament:

John 14:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

In terms of human brain function and interconnecting with ones child, what could this mean? How could such a concept be applied.

In most cognitive/behavioral/brain studies, autistic participants are hfa without known genetic disorders or other neuro conditions like epilepsy. HFA is much more studied in research, because it is considered pure autism without confusing influence of other things like ID.

The studies are not purrrfurrrt and sometimes crappy, but we try our best with the design, methods, data, analysis, conclusions. Each study is used as a small piece of possibly accurate knowledge (requiring replication multiple times) about brain to understand brain function.

Don't really know anything about this. What I was talking about was simple brain scans, as this is what Tuttle was talking about. Plus there was also something about brains scans I read recently on a thread about The Intense Mind Theory. I would have to do detailed reading to find out the specifics of these studies and be able to the best of my ability evaluate them, I suppose, and I do not even know if such info is accessible to me...and I kind of suspect the people citing these brain scan studies on WP know anything more about the specifics of these studies than I do.....

Btbnnyr, not you, but what the people I was originally responding to and also this person on this other thread about intense mind theory seem to me to be doing is taking these generalized bran scan studies and generalizing them further so as to support their own world view about themselves. I think we all tend to do this in some way with with some kind of material or other. I know I do, though I try not to now that I am becoming more and more aware I am doing it. It is kind of similar to idealization in the way it works. To see the truth might be painful, but what I am, what we are experiencing may not be because our brains are different, or, more likely, just because our brains are different. There may be something else.

It gets even more difficult when community begins to form around certain wrong notions and these wrong notions are a significant aspect of what is holding this community together, and there are some really good things also about such a community. Around these generalized ideas and notions, many of which may be quite wrong, good feelings of being connected to other are forming, feelings of being understood and of feeling safe. To any one reading, I like these feelings, too, and it is not my intent to take this away from anyone, but sometimes it is necessary to look at the ideas, but no one is forcing anyone to look at these ideas, though imo there is great value in doing so. I know it can be difficult.

Do not tell me what I am thinking. Do not tell me what I am doing.

There are a huge number of studies on the neurology of high functioning adults. There are studies on people with symptoms of autism, but not necessarily autism, studies on "Asperger's" vs Classic autism, studies across the spectrum.

fMRIs are used, using the skin to look at the autonomic nervous system is used, a lot of various tools of how they do brain research.

It's not just the one study that you found looking at the size of the brain. There are ones looking at how the brain stem grows as the child grows (it's in a different manner than a neurotypical counterpart), ones looking at how many neurons are in the brain (though those are more pre-studies last I saw because to truly check the number of neurons requires taking a brain apart so they could only do that to autistic people who's brains were donated to science - but they got multiple autistic children who'd drowned brains as well as some who died on other manners, and they reliably had more neurons though it varied how many more), ones looking at the shape of the connectivity, ones looking at the amount of grey matter, ones looking at the amount of white matter...

There are a huge number of studies out there.

So DO NOT tell me what I'm doing.

The fact that there are more important things in my life than responding to your threads does not mean anything about your ideas. But it is ENTIRELY inappropriate to make ANY STATEMENT about ME or MY THOUGHTS. You have no clue what I'm doing or how I'm thinking. So do not say you do.

Well, Tuttle, I did put a qualifier in my comment, in that I said "it seems to me." This meant that this is how it seems (or at least, maybe now that you have written a response) seemed to me. Maybe that was not enough, but I am a bit taken aback by your response..And I will interpret your response, as I interpret all information, and maybe wrongly, but I guess will not write my interpretation here.

Anyway, not trying to dispute that there are such studies and they do say something or other, but just now found this by chance on I think page two when I googled "autism brain scans..." http://www.boston.com/dailydose/2012/11 ... story.html At least I am giving a link to something.And I have never disputed that the brains of autistics are different, even very different. I know mine is. I just think these scientists do not know as much about it as they say and think they do.

I like your messages as you have given some good food for thought, but have never quite understood what you are trying to say on my threads.

I suppose I was interpreting your behavior, and I apologize. In the future I will try to describe my own behavior and/or just the behavior of people in general around making various generalizations. I will note, however, that when other people have been interpreting my behavior or byttbnnyr's here on on another thread, it does not seem to bother you at all. I suppose this, too, could be an interpretation, in that it may have deeply bothered you, but you just did not mention it. We get into rather murky territory here about what is an interpretation and what is not. Personally I believe everything is an interpretation.

It would probably have gone better if you had sited a few studies. If you already know of them it would just take a few minutes to find them. Also, I am not sure where you are going with brain studies.

Anyway, I still love your messages. I find you very interesting..

This may be a bit off topic, but this thread has led me to some insight about my childhood that is actually relevant to what you are addressing and something I want to talk about.

First of all, although I was only able to watch the trailer for 'Best kept secretes', I fond it personally interesting because I was born in Newark NJ and I wondered if there is anything about the city itself that could lead to increased incident of Autism.
We moved from there when I was a small child and so I was not fully aware until now that there is a major airport in the city.

Liberty International Airport was the first major airport in the metropolitan area, and became the world's busiest commercial airport. During World War II it was operated by the Army Air Corps. Commercial airlines returned after the war, around the time I was born.
I'm not saying this has anything to do with autism, but I believe it may be related to fear memories I had as a child.

My first memories are of laying in my crib listening to sounds. The sounds came at intervals and I waited and listened for them. I liked them and found them to be mesmerizing and also kind of eerie. I remember the sounds as what I know now to be the Doppler effect that an airplane would make.

We moved from Newark when I was two years old and moved back when I was four. At that time I developed an intense fear of noises. I remember it as traffic noises but I now think it must have also been the sound of airplanes taking off and arriving at the airport as that sound was also a Doppler effect that seemed to get inside my head and and frighten me.
The street we lived on was a 10 minute drive from the airport. (I looked it up on goggle maps). When we moved from Newark to the suburbs my fear subsided.

I don't know why the same sound that I liked listening to as an infant would transform into a fear inducing sound when I was a bit older. I don't know if it somehow changed my brain or caused me to retreat into a shell.
I do know that the world that humans and other animals evolved in didn't include such noisy, polluted environments and that this surely must have some affect on children and animals.

Edit: In the natural world, there are no freeways, airports, florescent lights, etc. Evolution could not have equipped us with senses that could easily assimilate these things.

Making generalizations about autistic people and saying you feel this way is different than making generalizations, and talking about an individual is thinking, especially without having them involved in the discussion of the thoughts.

If I do such a thing "I think this is what this person is thinking" its always of the sort "This is my interpretation, is this right, if not please clarify", not "This is what It think" to someone else. The former is attempting to understand and make it easier for others to understand exactly what was said with no information added (only a translation), the latter, trying to make statements about my thoughts and my motivations. You, and everyone else, do not have the ability to make statements about my thoughts and my motivations. Especially without actually having any basis of analysis.

Because in doing so what you are doing is saying "This person is doing this thing", which I was actually not doing at all, to someone else. You were saying things which were incredibly untrue about me, thinking that they were true, and spreading that to others. The fact that I was in a state where I could not be communicating with people, meant that you could just go around telling everyone what I was thinking and what I was doing, no matter how untrue it was; and it was incredibly untrue.

This is an area I've done a lot of research in. Sensory Processing Issues in Autism is likely my most active special interest at the moment. I read autism studies, include formal research papers, not just the journal articles, for fun. It's not just a political thing to me.

I am not in a state where I can do everything you want. I'm varying between not being able to write at all, and writing 2000 words in 15 minutes without thinking. I have other priorities than your threads, especially in the times I'm hyperproductive, and would be capable of pulling together a list of citations, because I really should build a new game by wedensday.

But, the studies are not simple scans of the size of the brain. Studies are more complicated than that, and you want to look at how lots of data combine as well. In order to get the best idea, you need a lot of data.

Now, it can be interesting to look at things like if trauma affects autistic people differently. But that's a completely different question still. You need to realize what question is being asked, what you are actually talking about.

But trauma doesn't cause autism, being unloved doesn't cause autism, and these aren't where the autistic symptoms come from. Autism intertwines a lot with psychiatric disorders, but its not the psychiatric disorders. Discussing if an autistic individual reacts differently to those scenerios, that is a thing that can be done. Discussing how something like PTSD interacts with autism, a thing to do. But that's not straight autism. What the question is is important.

You're right, Tuttle, this is what I was doing, and I sincerely apologize, and also, thanks for the additional clarification which is very valuable to me and will affect my future behavior both on WP and in the world in general.

I do not intend to discount any of what you have written or what I just wrote in what I am about to say further., but a (perhaps perverse) enquiry mind needs to make a couple of further comments on what you wrote above.

First, I had no idea at all that you were in a state where you could not go around communicating with people. How would I know that? You are assuming about me that I knew this. That is okay, though:-) Second, I do not really know exactly what things I was saying about you that were incredibly untrue, though I recall making one implication. In line with what you have just written, I think it would be more effective to reply to whatever comment and simply say that it is not true. That is not to discount the lesson you have just given me about communication, which is genuinely heartfelt by me..



Tutlle, I do not want much of anything from you. In fact I am a person over 70 who is still working at a laborious job and struggling hand to mouth and at many times finding it very difficult to survive, and I am trying the best I can to respond to the ideas in your messages and finding it very taxing to do so, though also at times rewarding. The thing is, when you cited the brain studies I did not know what you were talking about. You assumed that I would know, so I see this as making a generalization about me and putting me into a box in much the way I have acknowledged I was doing with you. In my case it is okay, though, that you are doing this with me, though I well understand it is not okay with you that I was doing it with you. I am mentioning it more for the purpose of enquiry...and this does not mean that a response is required or expected..I do not know what you mean by building a game. I am assuming it has something to do with your job. I have this pressure in my life, too...pretty intense recently.

Also, I acknowledge that when I mentioned the brain studies I was talking from a rather small scope, so I understand why you would want to make some kind of reference to other studies.



Yes.



Yes, you mentioned this before. It is a subject worthy of enquiring into, or perhaps we should just take your word for this.

So I went to autism research event (sfari) at society of neuroscience conference this weekend, and I found out that most of the genetic studies finding de novo mutations apply only to low-functioning autism with intellectual disability and not at all to high-functioning autism with IQ > 100, in which subgroup there is no increase in such mutations compared to neurotypical controls, and I had conversation with several people about what the heck is autism.

There seems to be big disconnect between brain/cognition/behavior studies in hfa group and genetic studies in lfa group, and results from each type of study may not apply at all between groups.

There was good talk about more variable sensory responses in hfa compared to nt, both behavioral response of judging a surface for roughness and fmri response during task, and higher variability was also found in visual and auditory tasks, but no time to present what those tasks were.

This message meant a lot to me, maybe because I read it on Sunday after reading and writing on the Autistic Encapsulation thread, which opened me deeply to some missing 'place' within myself and at the same time connected me back to life in a new way, which was new even though I experienced it as a child, as I am different now, so perspective is added. Anyway, these various insights do open doors.

I am thinking right now that when I just wrote the above, the sun started to come out from behind some kind of cloud and upped the gradation of light a few degrees, but so sudden, and I did not like it, because the room was comfortably just right, and I am writing facing the window, so prefer overcast light at this time of day----I am thinking of how whatever is happening in some way represents something about myself to me. To a child it would be mainly aspects of the physical world such as shape, sound, smell, touch, and then it becomes more and more refined and defined, but there is still this simple underlay which probably is affecting me in ways I am not consciously aware of.....

The documentary Best Kept Secret will surely be online again, but it is obviously not necessary to see it in order to participate on this thread.


Very interesting material. You did not mention how old you were when you moved to the suburbs, which is interesting in itself.
I want to write extensively on response to your message, which may take a while, so this is just a beginning, and feedback from yourself and others here is welcome.

One point I would like to make is about speculation. You are speculating; I am speculating; others are speculating etc. I speculate that speculating is an integral aspect of processing data. I think another word that is approximate to "speculate" is "estimate." They are not quite the same, but in terms of brain function it is interesting to me to look at it from this angle.

Just before I started first grade, so almost 6.
Another speculation I make based on my own early experiences is that infants don't perceive sensual information the same way older children and adults do because they have no context in which to frame it.
For instance, a car coming down the street is not heard as a distant sound coming closer, but a pure continuous sound, a crescendo. Voices are not heard as language and meaning, the visual world is new and mysterious.
I wonder if fear is perceived differently if it has no context in which to frame it.

Hi Marybird. Yes, infants and even young children do perceive sound differently. For one thing, they are more relaxed in that it doesn't so much represent this or that to them, and as you suggest, is kind of blended in, but n regard to the time before naming,I think the child already has context and an inner language, such as shape, touch smell, hunger, relief from hunger. Object relations theory, especially, and some other kinds of psychological theory go into various ideas about how the sense of self is formed. My child is a bright child, but no genius, and she spoke three times in the middle of her sixth month. I was surprised. I asked her "whjat do you wanto to do today, and she said "wanna bye-bye," meaning she wanted to go someplace. Another time she said the word peek-a-boo, which I presume she knew the meaning of as we played that game, and a third time I was getting ready with her to go outside and she was already in her hat and outsides clothes but I could not pull it together to leave, and she asked me, "going mama?" Actually I remember a fourth time which was I think even earlier, but no later than six months when we were in a store and I asked her about a product, should I but it, and she said "but it." Anyway, this last comment and the peek-a-boo word could have been just repetition, but the other incidents show the understanding of meaning.

The thing is, about the experience you mention, I think we would need to look at that very carefully, as it is possible to look back and attribute various subjective meanings to that kind of experience, but they may not be the right meaning. For instance what happened between the time of four and six.If you started being afraid of sound at age two (your memory of when this occurred), I would, if it was at the very beginning of age two, perhaps speculate that the fear of sound was connected to separation anxiety, but this is really just sheer speculation, and the key point for me is that whenever and whyever you were afraid of this noise, it presumably had come to represent something else to you besides what it actually was, which was just a noise.

And yes, context surely does enhance fear.

An important question for me in terms of sorting things out about autism in relation to ourselves and our own lives would be how and where do we start. I think some kinds of approaches would yield more helpful results than other approaches. For instance, regarding the brain studies, we can see that to actually look at these many studies, which may be difficult to obtain complete information about, and then evaluate them to the best of our own probably limited abilities and debate point by point about this and that perceived discrepancy with others who might be seeing this kind of material from an entirely different perspective might not be the best way to go.

.

I's a bit of a stretch to come to the conclusion that something like fear of sounds is connected to something arbitrary like separation anxiety. There is no logical reason to presume that.
It is just a noise, but if the noise is interpreted as fear, the logical conclusion is that it is a sensory processing issue and then you can only speculate on what effect that would have on someone.