wp getting annoying

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Actually I was just confused about why the word is used in that context....it seems very unfitting, couldn't they call it 'encouraging self defeating behavior' my brain just cannot rationalize a word with a positive meaning being used in such a negative context. The terms use in psychology irritates me....but its nothing about trying to frame things in some specific way, or trying to block out ideas because it doesn't fit the way I want it to.

Also who am I trying to protect....I've only stated I have not seen anyone that fit what the OP said in their #2...so my thoughts are perhaps there is misunderstanding about what might actually be going on with someone who seems like they aren't helping themselves...since mostly when I hear of this there ends up being co-morbid problems, an abusive/unhealthy situation or struggles with the debilitating aspects of autism. I don't see how I'd be doing anything wrong by posting in such a thread to offer understanding and support...sometimes that is all you can do as for solutions while I can make suggestions I can't know what would be best for them as I don;t know their whole situation and I am not a mental health professional so I certainly am not offended if they find my suggestion impractical at the time I mention it...and I certainly do not feel I then have the right to keep pushing my advice when I am just a person on the Internet who doesn't know them.

I think too often people try to make that judgment call for others....when you are right that each has to decide for them self if they've reached their limits and how much they can push themselves while still remaining healthy.

Sweetleaf, I do understand the gist of your recent post, and I greatly agree with the point about co-morbids should be factored in, etc.

I do see a rather strong tendency to enable people (in the way i used that word) on WP. I think a lot of people are stuck and can only get so much out of writing here and are getting the comfort they can, and this should be honored---it is the people on the edge, between not being able and being able, who can go one way or the other, that I personally am concerned about. I think if community forms mainly around this latter group it is to the detriment of the many, and this is what some people seem to be trying to do-- form community around enabling this one group, and when someone tries to point this out, others fight them. To me it is not wholesome at all, but the point you make about compassion towards these people and understanding about their individual circumstances is wholesome, of course.

There's nothing wrong with enabling good behavior.

On the other hand, "empowering" is one of those pop psych buzz words that generally has a positive connotation and can similarly be misused…

I never wish to "empower" someone's bad behavior and poor decisions.

I don't give poor, homeless, panhandlers money for the simple reason money isn't what they need. I'll buy them food if they say food is what they want. What's shocking is when you actually buy food for someone who says they need money for food and they slap it out of your hand or toss it in the garbage or in the street. And that's when the truth is abundantly clear: They don't want money for food…they're just trying to get more drugs or alcohol.

The point being that "enabling" itself isn't a negative. It's used in reference to positive reinforcement, the idea that someone gets rewarded for their behavior. Same reason nobody every gets expelled from public schools. They don't want to be there in the first place, so if they figure out that they can act like turds long enough they get kicked out, there's no real limit to how far they'll go. The "punishment" (from the educator perspective) is really just a reward (from the student perspective), and as long as the kid gets what he wants (permanent vacation from school), he'll continue the negative behavior because the behavior is being positively reinforced.

Or if punishment for behavior is accompanied by getting attention, the student is positively motivated to repeat the undesired behavior.

Giving bums money instead of food, clean water, clothes, and offering them jobs is positive reinforcement for keeping up the behavior that made them homeless/jobless in the first place. Drunks/addicts just want to stay drunk/high, so panhandling results in positive reinforcement, enabling the behavior.

I don't have a problem with enabling anything as long as there's a positive result being enabled. The only potential problem that I see is that enabling results in entitlement, and those aren't the kinds of behaviors, even positive behaviors, that I want reinforced. Negative reinforcement is more effective in the long run. My goal in raising my children is to "enable" them to internalize the inherent value of good behavior on its own merits, with ethical or moral behavior being its own reward. We use physical punishment early on in childhood to the point that being good=taking away punishment. Being bad means punishment stays in place AND toys/privileges are lost. Positive reinforcement on some level is unavoidable, so the focus is on maintaining balance between the two--avoiding heaping praise and bribes on the kids for doing the right thing while at the same time lightening their load as they begin to assume more responsibility, as well as avoiding punishment that unintentionally rewards bad choices.

If I have a child with a proven record of trustworthiness, I'll teach him how to drive a car. Eventually I'll allow him to get a license and see how well he does short-term with the family car. Eventually I'll buy him a $3,000 junker, and it will be up to him to work, save money, and buy something nicer if he feels it's that important. What I WON'T do is take out a loan, buy a Bentley, and sit back while the kid drives it off a bridge. I've known parents who'd buy their kids sports cars, let the kid total it, and turn right back around and buy the kid a new one after he gets out of the hospital. I remember one guy who killed himself and his girlfriend after his folks bought him his 4th or 5th Mustang (or whatever it was). Pisses me off to think about it…they named a tennis court at the country club after him.

The problem with the term "enabling" is not that it's misused as a negative term. It's that things only tend to get attention when things go WRONG, and you never hear about things going RIGHT. I don't have a problem enabling my kid to do good things by giving him the freedom of a motor vehicle. If he wrecks a junker that I bought him, he's going to have to work to earn money to buy the next one. If he wrecks that one, I don't care how much money he earns, I'm not giving him permission to do it. If he's making crazy cash doing honest work and not involved in anything ethically or morally questionable and he wants to buy a vintage Corvette, I'm not going to get in his way.

Enabling isn't what we're referring to when we use the term negatively. We're referring more to what it is we're enabling someone to do.

I will be the first to admit just how guilty of this I have been in the past. Whether related to work or my special interests (and sometimes relationships, too), it's been easy for me to really blame someone else for my failure to be proactive. I'm committing to a giant leap of faith this year, not unlike my 40-day water fast I completed a year ago, and for once I'm not listening to "the voices," i.e. external voices of people telling me "you just can't" or internal voices (my own self-doubt and fear/anxiety). So the more fearful I am, the more intensely I focus on my current projects. So the more I hear "you can't…" the more I continue to DO. It's not impossible, because every hour that passes that I work on the project proves that it's not impossible. So it's encouraging.

People that whine and complain about how "I can't" either don't really want to or they simply are unaware that they CAN. It's not easy to break from that comfort zone, but what I've found is that opens up new patterns and routines that, while they do vastly increase the difficulty of the tasks I'm performing, tend to become their own comfort zone. I think if someone can learn to let go of any unreasonable requirements that an activity be "practical" in some self-referential sense, one can focus on being productive and let that activity speak for itself. We tend to build up anxiety and fear over those kinds of "big picture" kinds of things. It is impossible for me to turn out some huge, massively-selling, award-winning instrumental album. Fine. So I focus on what IS possible…I can compose/arrange/record 14 tracks that could be compiled into an album that, if I ordered 500 copies, I would AT LEAST break even. I CAN'T do that in a day, week, or even a month…but I CAN sketch out lead sheets, and I can do a complete lead sheet in less than an hour or two--and that's just with pencil and paper. I can write enough material for 2 or 3 albums in less than a month's time, and if I take just one tune a week that I wrote that really seems to have potential, I can record it and polish it in under two weeks. So if I just focus going one track at a time, I can have the entire project completed in 6 months…8 months tops.

What I do is spend less time focusing on the big picture and more time concentrating on the baby steps. You can apply the same principle to pretty much anything out there that's worthwhile.

Relationships…you want to get married and make babies. But you can't because you can't meet girls. Well…why can't you meet girls? Go where the girls are. Make as many girl friends/acquaintances as you can. Establish a pattern of meeting girls and making friends. Narrow that down to who seems to like spending more time with you. NOW you've established your dating pool. Assess who out of that pool seems to enjoy spending more time with you than anyone else. Assess whether you LIKE spending that much with her yourself. Gradually cut out all other girls until you only spend time with that person (if she's not seeing anyone else). Now you're dating. Ask her if she thinks this is more than "just friends" and if she's ok with being in an exclusive relationship. OK…now you've got a girlfriend. Give it 6 months to a year. Hit her with a ring. She says yes (hopefully). Now you've got a fiancée. Take another 6 months to a year, hammer out the details, and close the deal on marriage. Give yourselves another year, and pop out some babies. Mishun akomplisht!

Career…you want to start your own business…

OK, I'll stop right there. It's SO EASY to make up excuses and blame other people. But it's only slightly more difficult to take personal responsibility, evaluate the steps to take to accomplish bigger-picture kinds of things, especially with regard to relationships and other life choices, and then focus on taking one step at a time to get there. I guess a lot of it, for me at least, was dealing with my own impatience. I was always good at being around women and often had more women as friends than guy friends (which led to people asking a lot of questions about me). And I don't mind admitting that I have MANY more failures than successes with women and dating, the failures all being about the self-imposed pressure I felt to find THE one and close the deal pretty much immediately. Well, yeah, I got rejected all but maybe about 4 or 5 times, have only been in 3 significant LTRs, but so what? The real shame is I didn't get rejected MORE than I did because I failed to try any more than I did. The real shame is I missed out on getting to know so many genuinely good people because I was obsessed with setting some record for being in a relationship. The important thing is the last LTR I got into will be 15 years running as of this year, and I'm in LTR with 3 of the cutest kids you've ever seen. My only regret is allowing myself to feel so intensely hurt during the whole thing. I suspect that for many of us, there are similar issues that only feed the social anxiety that we already have to deal with. It's fighting and overcoming fear just enough to take one single risk that breaks the pattern, and while it may take a LONG period of time to accomplish a goal, it's time worth taking.

I understand.

Thank you for clarifying.

In my opinion, I have spent too many years hearing how being different makes me less than. Done. There are many ways that as a group we are superior to NTs' [also, as a group] It's past time to hear that.

The rate of attempted, successful, or planned suicides among our young people is 28 times higher than that of the general population. Anyone feeling down or a little cranky, I hope feel free to get out of their system what they need to without being considered annoying.

No one is forced to read every thread. I don't think it is wrong to discuss something that somewhat else has already discussed. I don't understand why it would be. There are plenty of other threads you can read, and if you are finding them redundant, go ahead and start a new thread on something having to do with being autistic that has not already been posted. [ A few ideas for topics not commonly found on WP: "If you throw a bucket of water on an autistic will they melt?" "Does an autisic person have more reason to fear being turned into a zombie than an NT does?" "How would I start up a business teaching Alpha NTs' to have more charisma?" I could be wrong but I do not think these topics have been overused on WP...at least not yet]

Some homeless people have mental illnesses making them unemployable...hence why they are homeless. I simply don't think homelessness is a case of character flaws and 'bad' behavior. I would be offended if I gave a homeless person food and they just tossed it, but I still sometimes give them spare change...I gave a homeless person a beer once, but they didn't lie about wanting food or something they were open about wanting a beer. The only reason I am not homeless is because I live at my moms house, if I were homeless I'd still want a couple beers every now and then....though I am not an alcoholic.

Some things aren't as simple as 'bad' or 'good' behavior...I can't assume because a homeless person desires a beer that they must be jobless due to bad behavior lots of successful people want a beer every so often to. Also though I think plenty of homeless people self medicate...unfortunately giving them food or offering a job doesn't solve all the problems that may have put them there. I feel I am going off topic. Anyways I agree that its not a good idea to encourage problematic behavior but it is also important to realize not everything is within the individuals ability to control. For instance if I am really depressed it is hard to shower often enough or eat enough, if someone where to nag me to shower and eat and guilt me about how I am neglecting myself and how wrong that is I'd just feel worse...if someone gives me some space and gently reminds me that I am neglecting these things and is concerned I have no problem with that. yet it seems by some peoples definition them not nagging me would be enabling 'bad' behavior. when its not bad behavior but rather depressed behavior I am not in control of.

Hey, I've BEEN homeless myself. So I'm not coming at this from a position of never having been there myself. I drank up nearly half or more of the alcohol I still had with me at the time, really just because it was available. But then I didn't have any extra money to spend on alcohol and there was no way I was going to beg for money just so I could have a relaxing beverage every now and then. Doesn't mean I quit drinking when I had money again, but there was a time and a place for that, just as there is for all things.

What you support is going to depend on what your conscience allows you to support. I can't tell you not to help drunks and homeless people as you see fit. I mean, even if there are religious motivations as there might be for me, the argument could be made that the Bible commands we give to the poor and that it is not up to us how someone uses what we give them. I just happen to believe that by doing certain things, like giving money, only serves to enable certain people to do self-harm, and my conscience doesn't allow me to support self-destructive behavior. And it doesn't matter what their mental condition is…hurting oneself is hurting oneself, and if I can take a stand against that I will.

In short, we just don't believe in giving drunks a drink.

Also, don't think I'm picking on disabled people for things they really cannot help or have any control over. That's not what this is about. And you're right, we are getting off-topic here…the main point is that when someone DOES have control over certain things, it's frickin' annoying to everyone else to continually whine and complain about how the heavens don't just open up and shower them with wealth, friends, and companionship with the opposite sex. It's one thing to say "I'm wheelchair-bound and men don't find me attractive, there's nothing I can do about it, and I feel really, really lonely right now." But it's an entirely different thing to say "I have a crush on this girl and she doesn't like me. Life sucks and I'm going to stay up all day and night playing WOW because my social anxiety won't let me hang out at the public library or the local hippy coffee bar." Where I live, folk art and crafts are pretty big, and blues music is all the rage (Mississippi Delta, go figure). So if you know how to string beads and know how to play a 12-bar blues on guitar or piano, you're HAWT by default. Even better if you're missing an eye, a tooth, and/or paralyzed from the waist down. Heck, if you're completely blind, missing ALL your teeth and wheelchair bound and you have PLENTY of time to learn how to play 12-bar blues on the piano or guitar, you're pretty much all set. And don't think I'm just playing into stereotypes either, I'm just stating some worst-case scenarios and a couple of those happen to be based in reality. It's, like, I dunno…like somehow having the odds stacked against you so bad makes it so that no matter how truly awful you are at whatever it is you do, people love you anyway.

I get captive audiences at least twice a week and am for the most part well-respected in what I do. I wouldn't call mine a Cinderella story by any stretch, meaning I haven't reached many of the goals I set for myself two decades ago. Sure, my messed-up brain has held me back in a number of ways, but I don't HAVE to be content with that, and I can continue to look for ways to get around it. Comparatively few people actually DO have to be content with that, and most of what I've read on WP is largely what I feel to be excuses and negative self-talk. Be honest. Don't be, like, all "woe is me because I can't…" Be "you know, I don't…because I really don't WANT to." If you can admit to not really wanting whatever it is, you'll feel a lot better.

For me, there's a disconnect between what I want versus what I feel I SHOULD want. I've had to face a lot of guilt trying to mentally sort out the difference. And I've had to stop making excuses in order to narrow down what's really important to me and work towards making that a reality. I'm not producing an album because I'm enamored with making an album. I'm producing it because I have the skill to do it and know that I can effectively market it and pull in a little extra cash. What I REALLY am into is a little more academic, but I'm not a university prof. So I'm spending a lot of time on that because I WANT to, and everything else I do has a hand in supporting that. Now, of course I'm working on a commercial project because I WANT to, as well, but it has a purpose and I'm not losing sight of the purpose. I have the basic skills to do it and feel that I SHOULD do it. If it succeeds the way I think it will, I'll probably be motivated to do it again. If not, I'll go back to farming. But it takes a ton of work and a lot of stress; I value the end result and get a lot of joy out of being creative, so it's all worth it to me to do it.

That's why I quit teaching. Sure, I got fired. But that wouldn't have kept me from searching and getting another teaching job. I gave it up because deep down it wasn't what I really wanted, and I don't play politics, either, and I have a real problem with authority. Who needs that? Now I have the time to be productive and maybe turn some of that into cash. If I CAN'T do it, whatever…I'll be content with that, too. But I gain nothing if I don't at least try.

But what I DON'T do is endlessly whine about how nothing ever works for me. #1--that's not really true. #2--it doesn't do me any good,. #3--Nobody cares!

+4 then. And I agree about comfort zone. I stick to where I function best and do not try to force myself to function in contexts or environments that interfere directly with my functioning.

I was going to post that this thread exemplifies one of the reasons I find WP to be annoying - people being judgmental, ableist, and asserting nonsense as fact. We get to see how autistic people are just "making excuses" to not adapt, who are unwilling to leave their comfort zones, how being autistic is "harmful to humanity" or expressing real concern and compassion for people subjected to inhumane, painful, and traumatic punishments is itself somehow "harmful to humanity." The overall discourse on this site has shifted dramatically to a paradigm in which being autistic means one can't possibly be impaired in multiple ways that autistic people are actually impaired, and being honest about such impairments is somehow being lazy, making excuses, dealing with comorbids, etc. In other words, reinterpreted autistic people's experiences into something that fits into their perspective, rather than dealing with the fact that not everyone has the same experiences or that having a specific label doesn't lead to a rigid definition of what that label means.

^^^^^

This is basically how I view Wrong Planet, down to the teenagers here. Except one who wasn't autistic and started bashing autistic people left and right as soon as he found out. But he left shortly thereafter.

Plus, most of the venting about NTs here is not like the way NTs bully and abuse autistic people. It's not as if in the vast majority of situations autistic people are in a position to be believed over an NT or have authority over an NT. So people come to this forum and complain about NTs because they've had some awful times related to NTs.

And then people here who don't understand this nuance react as if this is identical to NTs abusing and insulting autistic people, but it is not the same thing at all.



^^^^^

People who have addictions serious enough to lead to being homeless are not going to be able to change just because you give them positive reinforcement. Addiction on that level is a physical and mental illness. They need medical attention, and they will most likely need to be in a rehab program to overcome the addiction.

Some people become addicted after they become homeless, because it helps them deal with being homeless. You are not doing them any favors to deny what might be the only comfort they have.

Alcohol or drug withdrawal can be very painful and debilitating, and dangerous. OF COURSE they want more drugs or alcohol because they will suffer terrible physical pain and misery if they don't get it. Severe alcoholics get the DTs when they don't get alcohol and it can be fatal. By giving them alcohol, or money to buy alcohol, you might actually be saving their life.

AngelRho is basically being a classist jerk. It's pretty typical to be hyperjudgmental of how poor people choose to spend their money. Just being poor and possibly even homeless means that those who have jobs and homes think they get to decide how poor, homeless people should be allowed to live, allowed to spend their money, etc. It's a false and unearned sense of authority based on a self-aggrandizing and unearned sense of superiority. That sense of superiority comes from the false belief that having a job is the consequence of trying harder than someone who doesn't have a job.

See also: Whining about people spending SNAP/food stamp benefits on anything but the cheapest fruits and vegetables. Fox News commentators complaining at length about people buying ~fish~ with food stamps. Same s**t, different day.

I get stressed out when people post about their pet peeves, because then my people-pleasing neurosis kicks in, and I update my mental list of 'taboo' subjects and opinions that various people hate – and when you add it all up... There's nothing you can say, that won't piss somebody off.

I completely agree.



This too.