Why I think aspergers should not be on the autism spectrum
I think what KOR means is people prefer knowing they have HFA rather than having all the symptoms and being different from neurotypicals but having no name for it and thinking they're broken.
I guess I didn't get the peace you're referring to, so have trouble seeing how anyone else does. But you're saying, and I've read other people say, too, that the existence of the concept of AS gives them a sense of self knowledge and peace. Thank you for explaining.
If you were diagnosed at a young age that might be why it's difficult for you to understand. When you know you're different, especially as awareness of self becomes more apparent as a teenager, not knowing why you're different is painful. It's easy to think you're crazy or damaged or missing part of yourself. In moments where people see you as normal you feel like a lie in human skin. And when they don't see you as normal you have nothing to tell them except that perhaps something is wrong with you.
You don't know why you seem to process the world rather than experience it intuitively. You don't know why that you feel like there's a barrier between you and your friends even though they're nice. You don't know why when you agree with people it still seems like you're not seeing things the same. You don't know why you always feel alone or why you're overwhelmed being around people. You just feel guilty and inferior and lost.
I apologize if I brought back a too old post, but this happened to be a problem I really have been struggling with.
I agree with OP. I've been having some emotional turmoil as every time I go to any Asperger's support group, the only people supported are those with low-functioning Autism. I don't see why it's elitist for people with Asperger's Syndrome to desire having boundaries between lower functioning Autistic people. I find the elitism claim just another way of emotionally manipulating people with Asperger's Syndrome. If you say no to spending time with someone lower-functioning you're told you're horrible, they have it worse than you. The parents of lower-functioning people with Autism will bully Aspies into spending time with their child. Aspie Elitism is another tool they can use to go after Aspies.
So I'm taking what will most likely be a controversial stand, and suggesting people with Autism are the ones who act entitled, or at the least protected from the rules of being a part of society in some part. They also erased the existence of Asperger's Syndrome as a separate diagnosis feeling it causes Aspies to have too high self-esteem or "elitism" So they insist everyone on the spectrum must meet them at their level, even if it makes Aspies feel like this. This has made it virtually impossible for Aspies to get support, because in many Autism groups they are designated to take care of people with Autism while their needs are ignored.
The other issue is people with Autism who having been protected from the strains of behaving according to society's rules have no understanding of boundaries. They are given such an elite standard no one can tell them no without being humiliated or emotionally berated. "They have Autism! Why won't you understand?!" This is almost 100% worse if you're female since every parent wants you to be their son's girlfriend, and you can't say no. This is pretty much the formula for an abusive controlling relationship. It's also an unequal relationship, they're asking the woman to be their son's caretaker more than a girlfriend.
I've heard horrific stories of women sexually harassed by men with Autism, who's parents seeing them as their forever child felt they didn't need to learn the birds and the bees. Women who complained are told "He has Autism, he can't help it!" In one story a woman after a Autistic young man put his hand up her skirt was told when she reported it he said he was sorry so it's no longer an issue. This woman was fearful to report the incident because of the Autism elitism that punishes anyone who says no to someone with Autism.
Those of us with Asperger's are not just told we must pretend these issues aren't real, that we're elitist for acknowledging them. I'd be pleased like OP if Asperger's was see as a separate diagnoses from the Autism spectrum. People with Asperger's could finally get the support they need without fearing parents who think using them to help their Autistic child is morally okay. Taking advantage of the emotions of someone with social difficulties is despicable. As it is I'm terrified as a Aspie female to go to any support group for those on the Autism Spectrum. I taught myself somehow to function, maybe reading things on the net, or socializing in non-Autism online communities. I had to figure it all out by myself, because support for women like me means the risk of being sexually harassed and emotionally abused.
I'm sure I'll get hate for this but I feel it must be said. I spent ten years of my life isolated and depressed because anytime I asked for help, I was told my problems didn't matter. I was told I was a monster if I didn't spend time with people who made me . Who didn't respect me and cared about my independence, their Autism elitism led them to believe Aspies only exist to be caretakers of people with Autism.
KingdomOfRats
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Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,833
Location: f'ton,manchester UK
I agree with OP. I've been having some emotional turmoil as every time I go to any Asperger's support group, the only people supported are those with low-functioning Autism. I don't see why it's elitist for people with Asperger's Syndrome to desire having boundaries between lower functioning Autistic people. I find the elitism claim just another way of emotionally manipulating people with Asperger's Syndrome. If you say no to spending time with someone lower-functioning you're told you're horrible, they have it worse than you. The parents of lower-functioning people with Autism will bully Aspies into spending time with their child. Aspie Elitism is another tool they can use to go after Aspies.
So I'm taking what will most likely be a controversial stand, and suggesting people with Autism are the ones who act entitled, or at the least protected from the rules of being a part of society in some part. They also erased the existence of Asperger's Syndrome as a separate diagnosis feeling it causes Aspies to have too high self-esteem or "elitism" So they insist everyone on the spectrum must meet them at their level, even if it makes Aspies feel like this. This has made it virtually impossible for Aspies to get support, because in many Autism groups they are designated to take care of people with Autism while their needs are ignored.
The other issue is people with Autism who having been protected from the strains of behaving according to society's rules have no understanding of boundaries. They are given such an elite standard no one can tell them no without being humiliated or emotionally berated. "They have Autism! Why won't you understand?!" This is almost 100% worse if you're female since every parent wants you to be their son's girlfriend, and you can't say no. This is pretty much the formula for an abusive controlling relationship. It's also an unequal relationship, they're asking the woman to be their son's caretaker more than a girlfriend.
I've heard horrific stories of women sexually harassed by men with Autism, who's parents seeing them as their forever child felt they didn't need to learn the birds and the bees. Women who complained are told "He has Autism, he can't help it!" In one story a woman after a Autistic young man put his hand up her skirt was told when she reported it he said he was sorry so it's no longer an issue. This woman was fearful to report the incident because of the Autism elitism that punishes anyone who says no to someone with Autism.
Those of us with Asperger's are not just told we must pretend these issues aren't real, that we're elitist for acknowledging them. I'd be pleased like OP if Asperger's was see as a separate diagnoses from the Autism spectrum. People with Asperger's could finally get the support they need without fearing parents who think using them to help their Autistic child is morally okay. Taking advantage of the emotions of someone with social difficulties is despicable. As it is I'm terrified as a Aspie female to go to any support group for those on the Autism Spectrum. I taught myself somehow to function, maybe reading things on the net, or socializing in non-Autism online communities. I had to figure it all out by myself, because support for women like me means the risk of being sexually harassed and emotionally abused.
I'm sure I'll get hate for this but I feel it must be said. I spent ten years of my life isolated and depressed because anytime I asked for help, I was told my problems didn't matter. I was told I was a monster if I didn't spend time with people who made me . Who didn't respect me and cared about my independence, their Autism elitism led them to believe Aspies only exist to be caretakers of people with Autism.
are completely misunderstanding of what low functioning autism is;severe aspergers is not the same thing as LFA,aspie support groups attract a lot of severe aspies because they are in need of the most support.
LFA individuals are not supported by aspie and HFA support groups,these groups do not accomodate our complex needs,our behaviors nor do they accomodate our higher support needs which for most of us with LFA involves having two support staff [2:1],will find the people are refering to as LFA are actualy severe aspies who are no less autistic or aspie than milder aspies are.
its highly ignorant and offensive to say we [those of us with classic autism] are act entitled when almost all of us are advocated for in life by other people and get very little representation in the autistic community apart from those of us who are activists and parents of young kids who think we have to be like them to be classic autistic.
as for sexual abuse and classic autism,again its another ignorant issue are pushing, for one thing unlike aspies, those of us with classic autism often have some level of intelectual disability which affects maturity and mental capacity, am speaking as someone who has been sexualy abused multiple times by two classic autistic people and both of them did not have the mental capacity to understand what they were doing in the same way a aspie or non autistic person woud do,they werent being watched constantly which led to the abuse.
please do not go around pushing false damning stereotypes about classic autism we have enough of them already without our own community adding to them-the small minority of classic autistics who have sexual behavior have to have a lot of monitoring support and do not abuse if they are supported with the correct safe guardings in place and as classic autistics we are far,far more likely to be sexualy abused thanks to the pyschopaths out there who take advantage of our severe communication and mental/cognitive impairments.
_________________
>severely autistic.
>>the residential autist; http://theresidentialautist.blogspot.co.uk
blogging from the view of an ex institutionalised autism/ID activist now in community care.
>>>help to keep bullying off our community,report it!
I am sure you will get hate for that post but not from me.
You do not seem to be in an emotionally good place right now and I can understand that.
I am an Aspie and my view is Aspergers Syndrome is autism.
Fustration is what I feel from your post and understand that too.
As regads a hand going to the wrong place this is not acceptable.
Some people on the spectrum form their support groups.
One that I was thinking of joining has a weekly meeting in a pub over a few drinks.
In the end I stuck with support from this forum from people right across the spectrum.
You may not like to hear this but a number of posters here with so called classic autism that have helped me are much better posters then me and to be honest they are more intelligent than me and many Aspies.
If we follow your logic we should not be allowed join in with NT activities.
I know my symptoms have mostly ruined my life and if people with more severe symptoms can work around their autism I have nothing but respect for them.
As regerds your support group it sounds like it is badly run.
VioletYoshi there is exactly what I am talking about KingdomOfRats is a more intelligent person then me dealing with more severe symptoms.
Look at the post KingdomOfRats has just posted it is well constructed sharp detailed and straight to the point.
Compare that to my rambling post and dare I say yours.
I am an Aspie just becuse I have a different opinion does not mean I don't understand.
This board has helped me into a new job and to avoid most of my past mistakes.
Why not stick around this place can help you even KingdomOfRats while annoyed at your post is the kind of person that will always help.
Just think about your post in a logical way.
You need to be in a support group because you can not like the rest of function in the NT world.
But you reject anybody you don't perceive to be up to your functioning level.
I am pointing out the flaws In your post not attacking you.
Try a different approach tell us what you want to get out of support.
KingdomOfRats
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Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,833
Location: f'ton,manchester UK
the problem here,isnt anything to do with recieving elitism;as no one has shown that other than those who want to split the spectrum up for the purpose of not being associated with 'us' ,its clear have got very little experience of classic autism & the whole of the HFA/aspergers spectrum and have built up these beliefs around limited stereotypes.
wrong planet is thankfuly for everyone on the spectrum to get support and communicate with each other,if are still believing what have wrote isnt offensive, elitist,stigmatising and defaming to classic autistics then will never get it-autism requires an open mind.
as for autism elitism,AE is actualy isolating a group of people on the spectrum negatively because theyre different and treating them in a inferior and derogatory/horrible manner,that is how the post came off;whether had intended it to or not.
just because have assumed the waves of parents who appoint themselves to speak for classic autistics actualy represent what we think doesnt mean its autism elitism;they arent us by proxy,take it up with the ignorant parents and general public who treat aspies like crap for being high functioning,dont take it out on a group of highly vulnerable people who arent allowed to speak for ourselves without assumptions being made about our autism.
agreed.
_________________
>severely autistic.
>>the residential autist; http://theresidentialautist.blogspot.co.uk
blogging from the view of an ex institutionalised autism/ID activist now in community care.
>>>help to keep bullying off our community,report it!
Just think about your post in a logical way.
You need to be in a support group because you can not like the rest of function in the NT world.
But you reject anybody you don't perceive to be up to your functioning level.
I am pointing out the flaws In your post not attacking you.
Try a different approach tell us what you want to get out of support.
I want to be safe, history has taught me many Autism support groups are not safe for women. Parents bully them into agreeing to be their son's girlfriend. Many men with Autism are taught their Autism excuses them from consquences. When NT men harass and in some cases stalk women that's criminal. When someone on the Autism spectrum does this everyone needs to be understanding. Or they manipulate women into staying with them with their diagnoses. I was nearly punched by a man with a form of Autism at a support group event. I was afraid to complain because I thought the parents would tell me I had no right to complain.
I've watched several episodes of Law & Order SVU, I know what the signs of an abusive relationship are. Any time it's brought up that men on the Autism spectrum having faced a lack of consquences for their behavior leads to them feeling entitled to women the way they would feel entitled to a desired object it's seen as discrimination. I and other females on the Autism spectrum should have the option for healthy relationships. My experience that can only happen if they look for men outside of the spectrum. I'm not saying all men on the spectrum are like this, the ones who have had their Autism excuse them all their lives are the issue, like Elliot Rogers.
Well I am on the spectrum and I have never been in any kind of relationship never mind bothered anybody.
There are lot's of people on this board with Aspergers and classic autism that are asexual including myself.
Everybody I have encountered on this board speaks for themselves there are no parents involved.
The support group you were involved in does not sound healthy there can be no excuse for sexual misconduct and you won't find any here on this board.
Just think about your post in a logical way.
You need to be in a support group because you can not like the rest of function in the NT world.
But you reject anybody you don't perceive to be up to your functioning level.
I am pointing out the flaws In your post not attacking you.
Try a different approach tell us what you want to get out of support.
I want to be safe, history has taught me many Autism support groups are not safe for women. Parents bully them into agreeing to be their son's girlfriend. Many men with Autism are taught their Autism excuses them from consquences. When NT men harass and in some cases stalk women that's criminal. When someone on the Autism spectrum does this everyone needs to be understanding. Or they manipulate women into staying with them with their diagnoses. I was nearly punched by a man with a form of Autism at a support group event. I was afraid to complain because I thought the parents would tell me I had no right to complain.
I've watched several episodes of Law & Order SVU, I know what the signs of an abusive relationship are. Any time it's brought up that men on the Autism spectrum having faced a lack of consquences for their behavior leads to them feeling entitled to women the way they would feel entitled to a desired object it's seen as discrimination. I and other females on the Autism spectrum should have the option for healthy relationships. My experience that can only happen if they look for men outside of the spectrum. I'm not saying all men on the spectrum are like this, the ones who have had their Autism excuse them all their lives are the issue, like Elliot Rogers.
You have some very valid points here, VioletYoshi.
Having experienced a very abusive relationship [inlcuding some of the fun stuff you get to see on SVU], I can relate to your concerns. However, I don't see any of those threatening signs of abuse or intimidation here. At all. I actually feel WrongPlanet, as a site, is fairly supportive even given some of the disagreements and debates that go on [not everyone is going to agree about everything all the time].
Since you have been here before and are familiar with how mods do things, you do know you can message them if you have concerns about how members are addressing you, how the direction of a thread is going, etc etc, right?
It sounds like you have had some very unpleasant personal experiences. I can certainly relate to that. I think it is very important to not generalize our personal experiences to every single person we meet. Also, since this is the internet, it offers a modicum of safety- there is quite a bit of distance between you and any given individual. If a particular thread is upsetting you, you can choose not to follow it.
As well, there are so many people on the board you have an opportunity to find your own niche. If you feel one area of the board isn't suiting you, there is a choice to make another thread, go to a different section, etc etc.
I really think that because a person has a label of "low functioning" or "high functioning", "aspergers" or "autism", assuming based on your personal face-to-face experience they will or won't need more or less support/attention or give more or less support/attention in an internet forum is a bit premature.
You may be losing out if you don't stick around and give it [another] chance.
Feel free to PM me if you wish. There is also a women's section I believe.
_________________
I don't know about other people, but when I wake up in the morning and put my shoes on, I think, "Jesus Christ, now what?"
-C. Bukowski
Did I think the OP was being bullied? No. I just thought some were harsh with their responses.
Well sais since where dev delayed his probably much younger than 15 , I thought some of the responses where a little mean .
Anyways I hate the word ASS burger , it's not funny nor clever , I suggest it should be changed to HANSburger !
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Theirs a subset of America, adult males who are forgoing ambition ,sex , money ,love ,adventure to sit in a darkened rooms mastering video games - Suicide Bob
KingdomOfRats
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Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,833
Location: f'ton,manchester UK
Just think about your post in a logical way.
You need to be in a support group because you can not like the rest of function in the NT world.
But you reject anybody you don't perceive to be up to your functioning level.
I am pointing out the flaws In your post not attacking you.
Try a different approach tell us what you want to get out of support.
I want to be safe, history has taught me many Autism support groups are not safe for women. Parents bully them into agreeing to be their son's girlfriend. Many men with Autism are taught their Autism excuses them from consquences. When NT men harass and in some cases stalk women that's criminal. When someone on the Autism spectrum does this everyone needs to be understanding. Or they manipulate women into staying with them with their diagnoses. I was nearly punched by a man with a form of Autism at a support group event. I was afraid to complain because I thought the parents would tell me I had no right to complain.
I've watched several episodes of Law & Order SVU, I know what the signs of an abusive relationship are. Any time it's brought up that men on the Autism spectrum having faced a lack of consquences for their behavior leads to them feeling entitled to women the way they would feel entitled to a desired object it's seen as discrimination. I and other females on the Autism spectrum should have the option for healthy relationships. My experience that can only happen if they look for men outside of the spectrum. I'm not saying all men on the spectrum are like this, the ones who have had their Autism excuse them all their lives are the issue, like Elliot Rogers.
this proves it was nothing to do with classic autism in the first place and have just unfairly stigmatised a group of people based on individual experiences with people who are elsewhere on the spectrum.
am honestly not having a go but am fed up at people using us [classic autistics] as an easy target for behavior that people dont want to accept happens on the high functioning end of the spectrum.
elliot rogers also wasnt diagnosed with an ASD;
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillin ... had-anger/
he had no diagnosis of any kind to excuse his thinking and behavior throughout his life,it was his unstable home life and his parents fame and money that led him to become self entitled.
am no longer going to post now the actual issue has finaly been reached.
am the only one who has been defending against their point so am guessing am the one this post was aimed at which is unfair and to self feels like stirring because have not spoken to them badly in the slightest have stuck to the rules.
are welcome to take it up with the mods if they havent seen it already but was not going to sit back whilst the disability of mine was completely tarred with the behavior of individuals who dont even have it on a forum that is supposed to accept us-aspie members have always done exactly the same thing when users have come here tarring aspies with the behaviors of pyschopaths so it isnt any different.
_________________
>severely autistic.
>>the residential autist; http://theresidentialautist.blogspot.co.uk
blogging from the view of an ex institutionalised autism/ID activist now in community care.
>>>help to keep bullying off our community,report it!
Just think about your post in a logical way.
You need to be in a support group because you can not like the rest of function in the NT world.
But you reject anybody you don't perceive to be up to your functioning level.
I am pointing out the flaws In your post not attacking you.
Try a different approach tell us what you want to get out of support.
I want to be safe, history has taught me many Autism support groups are not safe for women. Parents bully them into agreeing to be their son's girlfriend. Many men with Autism are taught their Autism excuses them from consquences. When NT men harass and in some cases stalk women that's criminal. When someone on the Autism spectrum does this everyone needs to be understanding. Or they manipulate women into staying with them with their diagnoses. I was nearly punched by a man with a form of Autism at a support group event. I was afraid to complain because I thought the parents would tell me I had no right to complain.
I've watched several episodes of Law & Order SVU, I know what the signs of an abusive relationship are. Any time it's brought up that men on the Autism spectrum having faced a lack of consquences for their behavior leads to them feeling entitled to women the way they would feel entitled to a desired object it's seen as discrimination. I and other females on the Autism spectrum should have the option for healthy relationships. My experience that can only happen if they look for men outside of the spectrum. I'm not saying all men on the spectrum are like this, the ones who have had their Autism excuse them all their lives are the issue, like Elliot Rogers.
this proves it was nothing to do with classic autism in the first place and have just unfairly stigmatised a group of people based on individual experiences with people who are elsewhere on the spectrum.
am honestly not having a go but am fed up at people using us [classic autistics] as an easy target for behavior that people dont want to accept happens on the high functioning end of the spectrum.
elliot rogers also wasnt diagnosed with an ASD;
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillin ... had-anger/
he had no diagnosis of any kind to excuse his thinking and behavior throughout his life,it was his unstable home life and his parents fame and money that led him to become self entitled.
am no longer going to post now the actual issue has finaly been reached.
am the only one who has been defending against their point so am guessing am the one this post was aimed at which is unfair and to self feels like stirring because have not spoken to them badly in the slightest have stuck to the rules.
are welcome to take it up with the mods if they havent seen it already but was not going to sit back whilst the disability of mine was completely tarred with the behavior of individuals who dont even have it on a forum that is supposed to accept us-aspie members have always done exactly the same thing when users have come here tarring aspies with the behaviors of pyschopaths so it isnt any different.
Um. wow. No what I said was absolutely not aimed at anyone on WrongPlanet with the exception of the poster to whom I was responding. If you had read my entire post, and I'm hoping you did, you would have also seen this:
My intention in stating what you quoted is to suggest that if there is actually a problem that VioletYoshi could appeal to staff, since she has clearly been here before [and if you look at here post history you could see what I saw there]. I can't really address the issue further or more directly than that: I'm a new kid in town. No one listens to new kids.
However, KingdomOfRats, you actually pointed out a couple things that I had wanted to. Also, to be clear- I personally have no problems with anything you have said in this thread, nor anywhere else I've seen on the board thus far actually. I have found you to be reasonable and decent so no, this was NOT any kind of veiled dig at you.
_________________
I don't know about other people, but when I wake up in the morning and put my shoes on, I think, "Jesus Christ, now what?"
-C. Bukowski
Sweetleaf
Veteran
Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,916
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
Just think about your post in a logical way.
You need to be in a support group because you can not like the rest of function in the NT world.
But you reject anybody you don't perceive to be up to your functioning level.
I am pointing out the flaws In your post not attacking you.
Try a different approach tell us what you want to get out of support.
I want to be safe, history has taught me many Autism support groups are not safe for women. Parents bully them into agreeing to be their son's girlfriend. Many men with Autism are taught their Autism excuses them from consquences. When NT men harass and in some cases stalk women that's criminal. When someone on the Autism spectrum does this everyone needs to be understanding. Or they manipulate women into staying with them with their diagnoses. I was nearly punched by a man with a form of Autism at a support group event. I was afraid to complain because I thought the parents would tell me I had no right to complain.
I've watched several episodes of Law & Order SVU, I know what the signs of an abusive relationship are. Any time it's brought up that men on the Autism spectrum having faced a lack of consquences for their behavior leads to them feeling entitled to women the way they would feel entitled to a desired object it's seen as discrimination. I and other females on the Autism spectrum should have the option for healthy relationships. My experience that can only happen if they look for men outside of the spectrum. I'm not saying all men on the spectrum are like this, the ones who have had their Autism excuse them all their lives are the issue, like Elliot Rogers.
It seems like perhaps this is something you experienced not necessarily something extremely common in the autism community. So being frusterated and angry about that group makes sense...but you can't really push it all on people with classic or low functioning autism as if it is their fault you've had some bad experiences. I was bullied a lot as a child by NTs but I don't hate all NTs or think they are all bullies as that would be ridiculous. There are parents who pressure friends of their kid to date them which is inappropriate on their part, but this is not limited to parents of autistic kids I don't think....sounds like a badly run group with some less than desirable sort of people involved if that is the kind of stuff going on with it.
Also a lot of people with low functioning autism have a lot of support because they need it....Also if someones autism interferes with their thinking in such a way it can be proven it interfered with their ability to avoid a wrong action then yeah it is going to be taken into account. I certianly do not think sexual assualt or going on a killing spree are things that can be justified really, but mental capacity has to be taken into account regardless....never really heard of a lot of people with autism doing a lot of stuff like that though, let alone just getting away with it do you have any links to statistics on this because seems like you're implying this is a very common issue going on if its true that a large majority of people with autism are sexually assualting and being violent towards people and just getting away with it because they have autism I think this is something people should be aware of......Otherwise it would seem you are generalizing.
I also I don't feel my ability to find a healthy relationship is threatened really, if someones parents tried to pressure me into doing anything I would tell them no and that they are harrassing and I will report them to the authorities and whoever runs the support group(if that is how I met the people). Also it seems like in your example the parents of this person are more the issue than people with LFA in general who you go on to generalize throughout the post, are the parents LFA? I am thinking probably not.
But aside from all this in what ways is aspergers different enough from LFA for it to be a separate diagnoses than autism, rather then both being different severities of the same underlying condition? Seems like its just more of the same elitiest us. vs them attitude about having the oh so classy aspergers and not wanting to be associated with the 'ret*ds' with LFA since you have not brought up any practical reasons why they would be separate disorders. Also how is someone with severe autism responsible for their parents behavior?
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We won't go back.
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