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Asperger96
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12 Dec 2014, 8:22 am

I gave this short sermon at my church a few months ago:
From the book of John, chapter nine: As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

April is Autism Awareness and Acceptance Month, a time for acknowledging the struggles, gifts, and challenges to people with Autism Spectrum Disorders. As diagnosis' rates rise, so does public awareness of Autism. There have been many treatments, from beneficial speech therapies and social programs dedicated to helping young adults with autism transition into the working world. On the other hand, there have been not-so-sucessfull treatments. Children wired up to electric shock therapy, even a child who died when some people tried to exorcise the autism out of them.

According to USA Today and an FBI estimate, hate crimes against people with developmental disabilities have risen 94%in the past few years , but fortunately in the past decade the quality of living for Autistic Adults has risen as they are starting to be given the same oppurtunities to suceed. And parents of Autistics children have stopped believing the myth that "bad parenting" caused autism, and many of these parents have defended and stood up for their children, refusing to let their children be defeated by the obstacles placed before them.

But the struggles continue, as every year countless autistic children pass the threshold into adulthood, and into the ominous "real world" that every teenager on earth dreads. And many are unable to find employment. Though not always because of a lack of abilities. Many employers, even those outside the service-oriented careers, are relying more and more on "soft skills". Autistic adults with great potential are passed over for people who simply have the social skills to make a good first impression. Autistics might not dress or act the same, because many have sensory issues. Senses are heightened, and what others can brush off as minor annoyances, Autistic people find unbearable. Many cannot simply focus on what one person is saying when dozens are chatting nearby, and this holds true for the entirety of the spectrum.

The last important things: presume intelligence. just because someone looks disabled, do not assume they are unintelligent. And the final thing: because an autistic person is verbal and high-functioning, don't assume that they don't face unique problems in everyday life.



ToughDiamond
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12 Dec 2014, 10:02 am

886 wrote:
I suppose I can't speak for god, since, last I checked anyways I am not him (or her.. or it..) but I suppose my overly religious parents would tell you that god works in mysterious ways, and he has a plan for us all. Sure wish I knew what it was, autism sure is confusing. :?


Yes the "mysterious ways" explanation, that we can expect these things, that we will die without understanding them, and that all is well in terms of the unfathomable big picture.

One theological explanation I've read is that if the righteous had divine protection, then righteousness would be motivated by the expectation of a reward. In the book of Job, Satan thinks that's the flaw in god's judgement system, that Job is only being righteous for the protection, it's not the absolute righteousness that the deity is really looking for.

I guess it's up to the individual to choose how much to trust this or that person or book, and whether or not things have to make sense before they accept them.



badgerface
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12 Dec 2014, 10:26 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
...it's up to the individual to choose how much to trust this or that person or book, and whether or not things have to make sense before they accept them.


This is brilliant. To-the-point, succinct, simple and sums things up perfectly. I shall be using this in many different contexts. Thank you! :D


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agwood
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12 Dec 2014, 11:23 am

Asperger96 wrote:
According to USA Today and an FBI estimate, hate crimes against people with developmental disabilities have risen 94%in the past few years.


I find that interesting, because I recently read an article in the news which gave quite the opposite idea.
A hoodlum mugged a young man in some alleyway & stole his wallet. But when he looked through his wallet, he discovered his victim had Asperger's. After seeing this, he immediately turned himself into the police, and said ''I'm scum''.



Last edited by agwood on 12 Dec 2014, 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Asperger96
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12 Dec 2014, 11:58 am

agwood wrote:
Asperger96 wrote:
According to USA Today and an FBI estimate, hate crimes against people with developmental disabilities have risen 94%in the past few years.


I find that interesting, because I recently read an article in the news which gave quite the opposite idea.
A hoodlum mugged a young man in some alleyway & stole his wallet. But when he looked through his wallet, he discovered his victim had Asperger's. After seeing this, he immediately turned himself into the police, and said ''I'm scum''.


Yeah, I heard about that. I wrote this in April, though, and I got the statistics from either a Government Website or a Book.



eggheadjr
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12 Dec 2014, 12:08 pm

I believe that because I am autistic that I am able to see the world in a different way from most people. My hyperfocus and sensory overload allows me to see more detail, more colour, hear more sound depth, smell, more, taste more.

Perhaps then, I am better able than most to experience and wonder at the beauty of the Lord's creation. And all of the burdens that come along with being autistic are the price to be paid for this.

All-in-all, I think it's more than a fair deal for me. I consider myself very fortunate and blessed that God made me the way I am. :D


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ToughDiamond
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12 Dec 2014, 1:17 pm

badgerface wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
...it's up to the individual to choose how much to trust this or that person or book, and whether or not things have to make sense before they accept them.


This is brilliant. To-the-point, succinct, simple and sums things up perfectly. I shall be using this in many different contexts. Thank you! :D


Glad you found it worth reading :-)
It's not quite perfect though. I wish it were always up to the individual to make their own choice, but I think that could be very difficult for anybody brought up in an intensely religious environment, or an intensely secular one, if there is such a thing. I don't know of anybody who was repeatedly told as a child that there is no god.



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12 Dec 2014, 1:30 pm

There is no god, and theory of the imaginary friend that invented everything is BS and for weak mind people.
If there was a god, he would pure love and the supreme being, he would not make any mistakes, he would have made sure that nobody struggled and everyone was happy. Last time I checked this is not the case. Meaning there is no F..king god!! ! Plus what about other religions and cultures like Hinduism Taoism or Buddhism and others who don't see the or have the theory of good the same way we do, or believe in something else, are they wrong and their believes. Again, proof the god is just BS.


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12 Dec 2014, 3:22 pm

I am a spiritual being having a human experience of which autism is very much a part.

**************************************

From the viewpoint of Advaita Vedanta and in essence the contemplative expressions in all traditions:
Everything IS perfect. But from the ego's point of view disease, grief, loneliness and death can dominate it's thoughts. One can easily say, "if God exists why does God cause and allow suffering? One way of responding could be to ask "Who suffers?"

I can only offer my experience and my answer to this question is that only my ego suffers. There is a part of me that is timeless, eternal and unchanging. This part of me cannot be touched by suffering, loneliness and despair.

An old sufi saying says it so much better than me.:

"As the heart grieves for what it's lost the spirit laughs for what it's found"



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12 Dec 2014, 3:55 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:
[...]

Or you could answer the question without the same predictable cynicism we all expect. Yes, we understand that you don't believe in god. That doesn't justify saying "well you won't get satisfactory answers anyways because god doesn't exist and religious explanations don't make sense". [...]


Disrespecting his response is cynicism.
For many of us this is (bolded part above) is from a lifelong experience with "christians."
It IS a fully justified response.

One needs to drink gallons of Jonestown-koolaid for these answers to even remotely feel "satisfactory."


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12 Dec 2014, 4:19 pm

1401b wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
[...]

Or you could answer the question without the same predictable cynicism we all expect. Yes, we understand that you don't believe in god. That doesn't justify saying "well you won't get satisfactory answers anyways because god doesn't exist and religious explanations don't make sense". [...]


Disrespecting his response is cynicism.
For many of us this is (bolded part above) is from a lifelong experience with "christians."
It IS a fully justified response.

One needs to drink gallons of Jonestown-koolaid for these answers to even remotely feel "satisfactory."


Or you can just read the ample material out there and appreciate the rational Christian perspective. Many of us do deserve that response, but generalizing Christians like that simply is not justified. There is a heap of evidence to the contrary, tons of Christians who aren't homophobic, believe in evolution, and have a coherent defense for their ideas.

So hopping in on a thread that presupposes the existence of god and giving nothing more substantive than "well theists is ignant anyways", is useless. It's off topic and it's just irritating. What Christians run around making pointless posts of that nature all the time, "well this isn't true anyways, I'm right and you're wrong so that's all that interests me... oh was I supposed to contribute something you were actually looking for? Oh well".


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12 Dec 2014, 4:42 pm

Perhaps it was a mistake to start a thread that pre-supposes the existence of god, in an environment of mixed religious persuasion. I hope people choose their words carefully, given the thorny issue that the thread keeps dipping into. Don't want it to get nasty.



1401b
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12 Dec 2014, 4:52 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:
1401b wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
[...]

Or you could answer the question without the same predictable cynicism we all expect. Yes, we understand that you don't believe in god. That doesn't justify saying "well you won't get satisfactory answers anyways because god doesn't exist and religious explanations don't make sense". [...]


Disrespecting his response is cynicism.
For many of us this is (bolded part above) is from a lifelong experience with "christians."
It IS a fully justified response.

One needs to drink gallons of Jonestown-koolaid for these answers to even remotely feel "satisfactory."


Or you can just read the ample material out there and appreciate the rational Christian perspective. Many of us do deserve that response, but generalizing Christians like that simply is not justified. There is a heap of evidence to the contrary, tons of Christians who aren't homophobic, believe in evolution, and have a coherent defense for their ideas.

So hopping in on a thread that presupposes the existence of god and giving nothing more substantive than "well theists is ignant anyways", is useless. It's off topic and it's just irritating. What Christians run around making pointless posts of that nature all the time, "well this isn't true anyways, I'm right and you're wrong so that's all that interests me... oh was I supposed to contribute something you were actually looking for? Oh well".

Been there done that more than you could even guess; there IS no rational christian perspective.
- Generalizing christians IS justified, they've generalized themselves by all taking the same group name.
- It is not off topic unless you are attempting to introduce false dichotomy by taking the question over-literal.
- One fully appropriate answer is that god did NOT make Autism because there is no god to make it.
This -in my opinion- is the only answer that makes any sense, all the rest is so desperately obviously double-talk. And I think all you christians know it's garbage but are driven by a terrifying survival instinct to grasp as straws.

Until the rest of us humans can figure out how to help you feel safe, we'll never be able to get you to pull your head out from under this oppressive security-blanket belief system.

Especially not while there's so much money in it for the Liars.

Until then, the OP deserves the respect of being answered with our best knowledge.


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12 Dec 2014, 6:36 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
agwood wrote:
I actually don't believe in God. At least not in the way traditional religious people do.

My point is that a lot of us are born with a s**t sandwich effectively. But remember how certain species like insects are given certain features to help them adapt to their environment over time?
That's the key word: adapt. And it seems to come out of nowhere.

So my question is, since so many people seem to be affiliated with this 'condition', is this a step towards adaption?

Evolutionary changes need to change allele frequencies.

Autistic people do not have more offspring than NTs, so "autistic alleles" do not become more common in the population over time... Unless we have some kind of kin selection effect, autism is not an evolutionary change.

There are several ways an allele can remain in the population without going extinct or undergoing fixation.

As for the God question... the chances are that no god exists. The theological response would be that the struggles associated with autism are a result of Adam and Eve's sin corrupting the world. As Adam and Eve also didn't exist, this has to be interpreted slightly more metaphorically if it is to make any sense - essentially, the bad things that humans do to each other cause our suffering.

Of course, this doesn't explain why God made humans do bad things, but if you want to live a religious life (which it seems you don't) then you have to accept never receiving satisfactory answers to some of your questions.


Or you could answer the question without the same predictable cynicism we all expect. Yes, we understand that you don't believe in god. That doesn't justify saying "well you won't get satisfactory answers anyways because god doesn't exist and religious explanations don't make sense". Do you see us doing the same to those in your position here? Saying the subject of the thread is a moot point is really a non-response. Why share it?

You have probably misread my post with the assumption that I am posting in bad faith. You should note that I did answer both the OP's questions, the one about God and the one where she clarified that she doesn't actually believe in the Christian God.

I could have said "Adam and Eve didn't exist, so everything in the Bible is a lie!! !", but I didn't - I explained a reasonably rational piece of Christian theology to someone who was unfamiliar with it.
I know many Christians who are intelligent, and several who are intellectuals. Most of them, at some point or another, shrug their shoulders. That is the very nature of a worldview that depends on something unknowable, particularly if you believe the basis of the worldview (i.e. the Bible and direct revelation) is fallible. At some point you have to shrug your shoulders and say, "well, I'll know why God created the world after I die".

Of course, it is necessary in any discussion like this about gods to point out that they probably don't exist, because that instantly solves the issue. You would have no problem if someone pointed out that the reason there are flaws in aquatic ape theory is because it's all made up, but you raise loud objections about cynicism when it happens to be something you believe in.



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13 Dec 2014, 10:27 am

1401b wrote:
- One fully appropriate answer is that god did NOT make Autism because there is no god to make it..........the OP deserves the respect of being answered with our best knowledge.

The_Walrus wrote:
.....it is necessary in any discussion like this about gods to point out that they probably don't exist, because that instantly solves the issue. You would have no problem if someone pointed out that the reason there are flaws in aquatic ape theory is because it's all made up, but you raise loud objections about cynicism when it happens to be something you believe in.

I agree. The original post presents us with a paradox and asks for answers. It's entirely reasonable to question the premisses, and without the "god exists" premiss, the paradox vanishes. If there's an alternative rational solution that doesn't question the premisses, bring it on.

It's fascinating how this question (of whether or not deities exist) can arouse so much anger - I don't mean here particularly, I mean universally. I feel slightly offended when somebody talks as if it's a given that god exists, because of the arrogance of the insinuation (trundled out as fact rather than owned as an opinion), and I can understand religious people feeling slightly offended when somebody talks as if it's a given that there are no gods, because that's also arrogant.

But I don't know why a little bit of offense is so prone to get vitreolic. I guess for an atheist, it's like the emperor's new clothes: once you decide these deities aren't actually there, you see the church in a new light, it doesn't look pretty, but unlike the emperor's new clothes story, the crowd doesn't see the point, it just rebukes you for your trouble. As for religious people, it must be a great comfort to "know" that there is an afterlife and a pure-of-heart father figure who loves and forgives you, so it could be quite uncomfortable to have those ideas questioned in any convincing way, especially if you also feel guilty about having reasonable doubts.



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13 Dec 2014, 5:21 pm

God invented autism to get the wheels going so that progress could be made. :wink:


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